Laine v Matthews. Ceiling/Potential

[libertarian]

they both good.

you know what else is good?

libertarianism

Amen.

 

[Dustin]

Amen.

User name checks out.

 

[libertarian]

Scheifeles most common linemate was wheeler...

Likewise matthews most common linemate (besides hymam obviously) was nylander...leafs best possesion player

I didn't know that about Nylander, I guess it show how good he is now and how good he will be. To be the team best possession player as a rookie is incredible. Maybe Leafs fans are concentrating on the wrong rookie as who their best player will be in years to come.

This would obviously be a very good problem to have considering how good Matthews is.

I'd love to see a Leafs/Jets SC final sometime in the future but I think HFboards would explode if this happens.

 

[TDK67]

Yeah, I've been lost without that site too, but I remember seeing a WOWY graph on one of the Jets blogs when they made the case for Laine to win the Calder. Even if you just look at total ice time on Hockey a Reference, I think Matthews got 120 more minutes at ES than Hyman. Add in a couple shifts a game where they didn't all change at the same time, or Matthews just finished PP or Hyman just finished PK and you get to 200 minutes pretty easy. Don't quote me but I think it was something like 240 mins.



That could very well be. But if it was just a case of spreading out the offence, I doubt Babcock would have been as stubborn about the Hyman-Matthews pairing. He'd have shuffled the wingers around more. It would be crazy to say that Hyman was dragging Matthews around, but it certainly looks like he helped in the possession game (definitely not in the offence game).



Yep, it helped a bit but that line and the Leafs generally would have been a positive posession line either way.



Yes, fair points. We are talking two different things here now though. Laine's linemates were an advantage in scoring and the numbers Matthews was able to put up with Hyman attached to his hip were nothing short of incredible. But Posession wise, the Leafs as a whole were superior and Laines TOI with Stuart/Chiarot are factors. Hunwick and Marincin are worlds better.

From everything I saw before all the WOWY stats went down, Matthews spent over 90% of his 5v5 TOI with Hyman so his sample size away from Hyman was a lot less than 200 minutes.

Regardless, the CF% relTM stats can't be completely waved away "because linemates" and they still paint a bleak picture for Laine as he was one of the worst players on the Jets relative to his team in possession, while Matthews was one of the best on the Leafs.

 

[Narow]

I didn't know that about Nylander, I guess it show how good he is now and how good he will be. To be the team best possession player as a rookie is incredible. Maybe Leafs fans are concentrating on the wrong rookie as who their best player will be in years to come.

This would obviously be a very good problem to have considering how good Matthews is.

I'd love to see a Leafs/Jets SC final sometime in the future but I think HFboards would explode if this happens.

Nylander is great for sure. But even his possesion numbers took a big boost of a few percent playing matthews so it is mutual as is the production for laine and scheifele.

If that cup final would happend we would quickly get ro know how suddenly intangibles are worth more that the cup by the losing team haha

 

[Narow]

From everything I saw before all the WOWY stats went down, Matthews spent over 90% of his 5v5 TOI with Hyman so his sample size away from Hyman was a lot less than 200 minutes.

Regardless, the CF% relTM stats can't be completely waved away "because linemates" and they still paint a bleak picture for Laine as he was one of the worst players on the Jets relative to his team in possession, while Matthews was one of the best on the Leafs.

What type of improvement did he have on cfrelTm in the second half of the season compared to the first?

 

[King1s]

Woe. Leafs fqns think that Matthews is even close to Laine. He is not in the same tier as McDavid and Laine in terms of potential. Sure, he was lucky to score what, 4 goals more than Laine last season. Big deal. Let's see how badly Matthews gets outscored this season. I am guessing 65 points for Matthews and 80 points(50 goals) for Laine.

 

[Narow]

Woe. Leafs fqns think that Matthews is even close to Laine. He is not in the same tier as McDavid and Laine in terms of potential. Sure, he was lucky to score what, 4 goals more than Laine last season. Big deal. Let's see how badly Matthews gets outscored this season. I am guessing 65 points for Matthews and 80 points(50 goals) for Laine.

C'mon dude... Matthews potential is definatly up there...

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I didn't know that about Nylander, I guess it show how good he is now and how good he will be. To be the team best possession player as a rookie is incredible. Maybe Leafs fans are concentrating on the wrong rookie as who their best player will be in years to come.

This would obviously be a very good problem to have considering how good Matthews is.

I'd love to see a Leafs/Jets SC final sometime in the future but I think HFboards would explode if this happens.

Matthews is the best of the 3, that's the way it is when you bag 40 goals year 1

 

[TDK67]

What type of improvement did he have on cfrelTm in the second half of the season compared to the first?

Good question for anyone who can parse out that data by date ranges.

 

[libertarian]

User name checks out.

I picked that name for a reason.

 

[Narow]

Good question for anyone who can parse out that data by date ranges.

Would be interesting to see if there even was an improvement but i think so especially looking at how he improved over the season in possesion.


The jets

Laine

Looks alot more consistent in second half

It is interesting how his best possesion was just before the injury

Still matthews took more shots with his linemates in relation to the rest of the team.

Should be noted laines linemates seemed to hold on to the puck and try to set laine up instead of shooting themselves (as much as they do without him).

A more interedting possesion stat would be the time laine or his linemates have the puck on their stick....

 

[TDK67]

Would be interesting to see if there even was an improvement but i think so especially looking at how he improved over the season in possesion.


The jets

Laine

Looks alot more consistent in second half

It is interesting how his best possesion was just before the injury

Still matthews took more shots with his linemates in relation to the rest of the team.

Should be noted laines linemates seemed to hold on to the puck and try to set laine up instead of shooting themselves (as much as they do without him).

A more interedting possesion stat would be the time laine or his linemates have the puck on their stick....

Looks like he increased his shot volume slightly post-injury. Still a negative differential overall, but I would call that a small improvement.

 

[ChiefWiggum]

Matthews scored more goals with a lower points per game with worse linemates.

Laine scored less points per game with a higher points per game with better linemates

Its really a matter of cherry picking which stats suit your case better

 

[libertarian]

Matthews scored more goals with a lower points per game with worse linemates.

Laine scored less points per game with a higher points per game with better linemates

Its really a matter of cherry picking which stats suit your case better

Sorry but this makes no sense.

 

[Lshap]

Insults will get you an infraction. Make your point, but keep it civil.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I agree. Laine knows he is and was #2 and so he felt like he had something to prove. It's clear those particular games meant more to Laine than to Matthews.

I agree with the others, though. Their rookie seasons are over and the Calder has already been handed out, so it's time for Laine to let it go and re-focus his energy towards a more attainable goal in trying to will his team to the playoffs.

Lots of assumptions in this post.

I would say Laine scoring 5 amazingly high quality goals against the Leafs shows great character and competitiveness as a pro athlete. Something you can see in Matthews face when Laine scored in OT after he missed in the Jets 0-4 comeback spearheaded by Laine's character as a player. I would hope both share these traits.

As for refocusing his energy, I don't know what you are saying here? He was concussed last season, so it is reasonable to think he may have ran out of gas to a number of good reasons.

What we know about Laine is He is a proven gold medal winner, a Liiga champion, a MVP of the Liiga playoffs, and named the best fwd at the World Hockey championships on a Siiver medal team at age 17 and 18. If you think he is not focused at winning, you need to set equal standards for all players, leafs players too then if you think this is a low standard, since your post seems to knock this trait for Laine.

 

[C77]

First off I am a Bruins fan so I don't think I am biased one way or another here but:

Matthews is a guy that can be your best forward on a Cup winner....he is a bull with ridiculous hands. Can score in a bunch of different ways and with just a tiny bit of time and space. And he scores his goals from the dirty areas in front of the net....which if you get in the playoffs is how you need to score.

Laine is a great shooter...It is a rare talent that can beat goalies from far away in today's NHL. It is exciting and refreshing to see...but those triggerman scoring opportunities do not present themselves very often when the game gets tight.

Both great players but I see a significant gap in Matthews favor.

 

[VanIslander]

So much for the ol' Laine vs. Puljujarvi threads!

 

[BayStreetBully]

Lots of assumptions in this post.

I would say Laine scoring 5 amazingly high quality goals against the Leafs shows great character and competitiveness as a pro athlete. Something you can see in Matthews face when Laine scored in OT after he missed in the Jets 0-4 comeback spearheaded by Laine's character as a player. I would hope both share these traits.

As for refocusing his energy, I don't know what you are saying here? He was concussed last season, so it is reasonable to think he may have ran out of gas to a number of good reasons.

What we know about Laine is He is a proven gold medal winner, a Liiga champion, a MVP of the Liiga playoffs, and named the best fwd at the World Hockey championships on a Siiver medal team at age 17 and 18. If you think he is not focused at winning, you need to set equal standards for all players, leafs players too then if you think this is a low standard, since your post seems to knock this trait for Laine.

So basically, looking at your list, Laine has proven nothing at the NHL level. No individual awards, no willing his team to the playoffs.

So yeah, if Laine cares that much about Matthews as you said he does, then he should refocus his energy towards other, more attainable goals like leading his team to the playoffs, because he is out of his element trying to compete with Matthews. We already know that Matthews doesn't give a second thought to Laine, because logically those in the #1 spot don't look down.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

From everything I saw before all the WOWY stats went down, Matthews spent over 90% of his 5v5 TOI with Hyman so his sample size away from Hyman was a lot less than 200 minutes.

Regardless, the CF% relTM stats can't be completely waved away "because linemates" and they still paint a bleak picture for Laine as he was one of the worst players on the Jets relative to his team in possession, while Matthews was one of the best on the Leafs.

Even with the sites going down, you'd think we'd be able to find it easily amongst the 38 Calder threads and however many articles written about these players last year. I just spent 10 minutes googling and the only thing I could find was this: https://editorinleaf.com/2017/08/15/toronto-maple-leafs-marner-matthews-nhl/

Anyway, I dont doubt that Matthews spent over 90% of his time with Matthews at 5 on 5. The numbers I was referring to were even strength and as I said, I can't reference them because the sites are down. But that link seems to back up what I was saying. There is no evidence that Matthews was boosting Nylander/Hyman's possession numbers and the only evidence we have suggests the contrary (but it's only ~200 mins). Given that he spent so much time with Hyman/Nylander and how well that line did, we should expect his Corsi Rel stats to be high.

Adam Lowry spent his rookie season with Michael Frolik (possession monster) and finished with a 54% Corsi and a Corsi Rel of +3. The next season, without Frolik, his Corsi numbers went to 46% and -6.8. That's not what I expect to happen with Matthews but more of a cautionary tale on just how much these things matter.

If these threads were more civil and didn't turn into the trench warfare where each side needs to vilify the others player to make a point,, I suspect Jets fans would agree that Matthews was the better 200 foot player in 2016-17 and that Leafs fans would admit that Matthews, despite having a monster season Corsi wise, still needs some more experience before we can say he' can carry a line and drive play by himself, regardless of teammates etc

 

[The Winter Soldier]

So basically, looking at your list, Laine has proven nothing at the NHL level. No individual awards, no willing his team to the playoffs.

So yeah, if Laine cares that much about Matthews as you said he does, then he should refocus his energy towards other, more attainable goals like leading his team to the playoffs, because he is out of his element trying to compete with Matthews. We already know that Matthews doesn't give a second thought to Laine, because logically those in the #1 spot don't look down.

Seriously, you try way too hard. That you make yourself look incredibly biased as posters go here. For the record, I think both were great rookies last season. I just happen to think Laine has a higher ceiling when you take into account all the things I pointed out in this thread. Not going to repeat them. They easily can be found here. But you seem to be on repeat cycle where no actual discussion is going on. It's like you are having a conversation with yourself so I will leave you to yourself to discuss this with yourself where you can repeat your hot takes at will.

 

[Narow]

Even with the sites going down, you'd think we'd be able to find it easily amongst the 38 Calder threads and however many articles written about these players last year. I just spent 10 minutes googling and the only thing I could find was this: https://editorinleaf.com/2017/08/15/toronto-maple-leafs-marner-matthews-nhl/

Anyway, I dont doubt that Matthews spent over 90% of his time with Matthews at 5 on 5. The numbers I was referring to were even strength and as I said, I can't reference them because the sites are down. But that link seems to back up what I was saying. There is no evidence that Matthews was boosting Nylander/Hyman's possession numbers and the only evidence we have suggests the contrary. Given that he spent so much time with Hyman/Nylander and how well that line did, we should expect his Corsi Rel stats to be high.

Adam Lowry spent his rookie season with Michael Frolik (possession monster) and finished with a 54% Corsi and a Corsi Rel of +3. The next season, without Frolik, his Corsi numbers went to 46% and -6.8. That's not what I expect to happen with Matthews but more of a cautionary tale on just how much these things matter.

If these threads were more civil and didn't turn into the trench warfare where each side needs to vilify the others player to make a point,, I suspect Jets fans would agree that Matthews was the better 200 foot player in 2016-17 and that Leafs fans would admit that Matthews, despite having a monster season Corsi wise, still needs some time before we can say he's a monster possession player on his own.

Feel free to search my post history, i pretty much gave all numbers even in percentages of their linemates and all stats multiple times

Hymn spent about 88% with matthews (of matthews icetime) if i remember right or 85% it was really high

 

[BayStreetBully]

Seriously, you try way too hard. That you make yourself look incredibly biased as posters go here. For the record, I think both were great rookies last season. I happen to think Laine has a higher ceiling when you take into account all the things I pointed out in this thread. Not going to repeat them. They easily can be found here. But you seem to be on repeat cycle where no actual discussion is going on. It's like you are having a conversation with yourself so I will leave you to yourself to discuss this with yourself where you can repeat your hot takes at will.

Not trying hard at all. I mean everything.

All the things you pointed out in this thread are just excuses for why Laine was inferior last year, so I don't know what your actual great points are. Few months younger. Never played in NA before. Injuries that he wasn't quick enough to avoid. You know why Leafs fans don't make excuses for Matthews? Because he doesn't need them.

 

[Narow]

Not trying hard at all. I mean everything.

All the things you pointed out in this thread are just excuses for why Laine was inferior last year, so I don't know what your actual great points are. Few months younger. Never played in NA before. Injuries that he wasn't quick enough to avoid. You know why Leafs fans don't make excuses for Matthews? Because he doesn't need them.

His point is that laine kept up (and exceeded foe a big part of the season) with matthews that season despite all those things he had against him.

Thing is tho matthews had thing against him too.