La liga part II
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Duchene2MacKinnon
In the hands of Genius
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It wasn't shoulder to shoulder and the defender makes contact. IT could've easily been a penalty. Couldn't care less what the commentators were ranting about.
Sarcastically, clapping and getting a game is BS. it happens all the time and players receive at most yellow. To get a game is absurd.
There's quite a difference in how Bale acted and how Ney did. Not that it matters as win, lose or Draw barca won't get the league.
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JordanStaal#1Fan
Duchene2MacKinnon
In the hands of Genius
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Not a single person here has claimed the refs are the reason barca won't/not winning the league.
"Ney"
That's a worse nickname then Giroux's "H"
It's not a really a nickname... I was just lazy. Still better than CR7.
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JordanStaal#1Fan
Sure looked like that was what les Habs was doing in his last couple of posts.
Clearly you're not sure what I'm saying since I didn't say that. In fact if you go back to my initial post after the match I clearly said "can't say the refs cost us the points."
Wrong, again. Malaga should have had players sent off as well and as has already been discussed Barça could have had another penalty.
That is how football works. You get two yellow cards in the same match you get sent off. He committed multiple bookable offenses and additionally should have been booked for persistent fouling.
It's every bit as logical and safe to assume that he'd have not changed his game after his first booking.
To a degree, but not entirely. Other factors contributed as I've already noted.
Before March alone Barça lost six points due to the refs. That doesn't even include the Betis match. Madrid at the same time have gained at least six points (and that's a conservative figure). Do the math. So yeah, the refs are the difference. It's shades of 2011-12 and other seasons all over again. Hilarious you actually cited the Celta match and then asked the question. Please indeed.
Look, if you think that's a penalty (or a foul, on any part of the pitch), I don't know what to tell you.
Except as a guy who played high tier youth football, reffed it and been playing and around football my whole life - it just isn't a foul.
As pointed out, les habs literally said just that.
Much like with Messi getting 4 games in WC qualifying, I very much approve of the suspension.
I hope it happens regularly and across all competitions. Regardless of the player involved. Messi, Neymar, Cristiano, Pogba, Diego Costa, Robben, Bonucci,... Anyone.
I hope cheaters and divers get suspended retroactively and disrespecting the refs (crowding, swearing, getting into his face, etc.) is an automatic yellow and if harsher words are said, a straight red card.
Football has become a game of corrupt officials, biased refs and cheating players.
For every fantastic goal you see, you'll see 4 dives, 3 guys faking injuries and rolling on the ground and 3 dodgy ref decisions. And people crowding that same ref 10 times per game.
Bringing in replays for select plays, banning dives and faking injuries retroactively and suspending people disrespecting the ref is the only way to get some respect back into the game.
...
The link below is to some examples of rugby refs.
A game where people with very little protective gear absolutely maul each other.
And a game where players respect each other and the ref, and the ref respects them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43AdWFSXhgs
Wouldn't football be a better game if we had respect in the game like this?
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Well, if you think a player already on a yellow card would be committing to challenges as hard as a when he's not on a yellow card, I don't really know what to tell you.
It's reasonable to assume any player is wary of getting a second yellow card.
(FWIW, Camacho should've been booked at some point, yes... But again... That changes his game)
So again, if you're saying Camacho (or Verratti in the PSG) game, would continue to make challenges with the same intensity had they been booked before...
That's just flawed logic.
I have no idea how anyone can't see that. It's common sense.
I mean, anyone who's played any sort of competitive football will have that in his head every time you're going into a challenge.
"I've already been booked" changes the way you go into challenges.
Same way if you get a parking ticket in life, or a speeding ticket, a reasonable person will be wary of it and try to avoid doing it again...
Well, okay then.
I actually applaud your lack of any self criticism. Or criticism towards Barcelona, that is.
It takes some serious effort.
And at least D2M can now see that, yes, there are people (I'm gonna say only Barca fans) who think Barca are behind in La Liga only because of the refs.
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JordanStaal#1Fan
After every Barca game les Habs claims that an opposing player should have been sent off. Everytime he watches a Real game, he claims one of our guys should have been sent off.
I mean...
I mean...
Duchene2MacKinnon
In the hands of Genius
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Much like the Neymar you'd be wrong. Others have done worse than what Messi did and got similar bans. To give it hours before a crucial qualifier is a ****ing joke. Especially, how Fifa got its evidence and the ref himself didn't complain.
Messi didn't scream to the refs face, even if he did say it out loud out of frustration. The mere thought that swearing costs you 4 games and maybe a WC is absurd. They're not kids out there.
I'll concede about Les Habs...Shoulda read his posts more carefully. I disagree with that thinking.
A great example of something you could reply "no **** Sherlock" to, though considering you actually posted that perhaps "no **** Watson" would be more apt.
It's also just as reasonable to assume that players in plenty of instances don't change their games or don't change them enough. Camacho's match performance looked like a glaring example of this.
Furthermore though what you're failing to bring the table here is that the advantage the player has been getting by not getting carded, which was perfectly illustrated by Camacho all match long in this instance, is no longer there and the game opens up for the other team. Today's match against Juventus was a prime example with Dani Alves. He committed about four fouls, all challenges from behind and nearly all deep in Barça's half to stifle breaks that had barely even formed. The ref booked him on the fourth foul, perhaps a foul too late but that's beside the point, and right there it stopped. Camacho should have been carded by the 45th minute at the latest, yet was never carded when he should have been multiple times on the way to committing something like eight fouls.
No, that's reality. It happens. Hilarious you keep bringing up Verratti when you consider the actual challenge he made late on. Still even more hilarious considering the first leg in Paris when Rabiot should have been sent off in the last ten minutes or so for a second yellow card when he was already on one.
I don't know whether to laugh or face palm. The fact that you've actually made my reply into some sort of black and white take from me and yet apply the same "logic" conversely is mind boggling. Considering your posts on the matter and especially what I'm about to quote below, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
Well OK then indeed.
I actually applaud your lack of common sense and failure to actually come up with a reasonable reply to this or anything else we've discussed here. I've very clearly outlined, multiple times, that Barça deserve criticism. From management at various levels and to the players themselves. I don't give players free passes, any of them, including Messi. I will admit the ones I don't like get an extra dose of vitriol when they don't perform, but that's generally because I never wanted them in the team in the first place and they usually end up not working out. To the point though, as I noted to a Madridista co-worker a few weeks ago, even if we were to win the league it wouldn't be a league I'd be celebrating too much if at all. That's not because the refs will have taken us there, at least not likely at this stage all things considered, but simply because it won't have been an impressive league win in terms of performances. Sure there have been some amazing ones, but I've seen better out of this team and unlike most supporters I don't celebrate a win for a win's sake. I watch to be entertained. Same were I Madrid supporter. This season's league performance isn't one I'd celebrate were Madrid to win. Back to the point though, regardless of what one can criticize Barça for, or any team for that matter, if they do enough to win a match or title and don't because of the refs then they lost it first and foremost because of the refs. Simple as that.
Additionally though I also call it when Barça get calls and I already noted as such with regards to the Malaga match. I do so with every match I comment on as well. It's there for all to see assuming A) you actually read it and B) you can actually comprehend it. Take today's match for example. Juve's fourth clearly wasn't offisde and therefore should have stood. Whether players stopped playing I would say is open for discussion and worthy of consideration, but the player wasn't offside. That ref made other mistakes and there was actually a similarity between that match and the Malaga match as regards cards, but for me it was a night and day difference in refereeing. Anyway, point is that I call them both ways and do so consistently. More so than the vast majority on this forum (I won't even comment on this thread individually) and I don't wait until prompted.
I mean, Asbestos? Really? You can't write this ****. So much context there.
Yes, there are players who make reckless challenges even when on a yellow. Those players get sent off... And the number of those players, the number of booked players getting their 2nd yellow in a game, is what... 5%? 10%?
So, again, using statistics, and common sense, it's reasonable to assume a player on a yellow card changes his game and lets up.
(yes, give us another "no s**t, Sherlock" comment - because you're the one that doesn't seem to take it into account)
I think it's pretty funny you're using Trump as an example of something when you seem to lack the basics of what makes an argument based in logic.
You cannot, by default, make an argument that "Camacho's match performance looked like a glaring example" because he never got booked.
For your argument to make any sense at all, Camacho would've had to have been booked - and THEN continued to make borderline challenges.
Your example, in fact, is the precisely the point I'm trying to make.
Your example, in its core, cannot be used as an argument for the point you're trying to make - because he never got booked.
How can you not see that?
Yes, there are players who make reckless challenges even when on a yellow. Those players get sent off... And the number of those players, the number of booked players getting their 2nd yellow in a game, is what... 5%? 10%?
So, again, using statistics, and common sense, it's reasonable to assume a player on a yellow card changes his game and lets up.
(yes, give us another "no s**t, Sherlock" comment - because you're the one that doesn't seem to take it into account)
I think it's pretty funny you're using Trump as an example of something when you seem to lack the basics of what makes an argument based in logic.
You cannot, by default, make an argument that "Camacho's match performance looked like a glaring example" because he never got booked.
For your argument to make any sense at all, Camacho would've had to have been booked - and THEN continued to make borderline challenges.
Your example, in fact, is the precisely the point I'm trying to make.
Your example, in its core, cannot be used as an argument for the point you're trying to make - because he never got booked.
How can you not see that?
I absolutely can make the argument that Camacho's match performance was a glaring example because he'd already been spoken to by the ref and still didn't let up. That's obvious if you look at the types of fouls he was making. Based on your commentary I suspect you didn't see a single foul he made so I can see where the rest of it escaped you. On top of that, again, when the ref actually does his job and say the player does start to play differently, that has a positive effect for the other team.
Everything I've posted is not only based in logic, it's also based in fact. The problem with your argument is that it's all black and white, one way or the other. Of course there's the fact that you cherry-pick your points and ignore everything else. Just like the fact that I didn't mention Trump. As for me, what you say I didn't take into account, I absolutely did. The entire time, just as with every performance, I take it into account. The difference here is that you don't take anything else into account.
I absolutely can make the argument that Camacho's match performance was a glaring example because he'd already been spoken to by the ref and still didn't let up. That's obvious if you look at the types of fouls he was making. Based on your commentary I suspect you didn't see a single foul he made so I can see where the rest of it escaped you. On top of that, again, when the ref actually does his job and say the player does start to play differently, that has a positive effect for the other team.
He. Never. Got. Booked.
You are arguing that a certain player didn't change his game after getting booked in a game where he didn't get booked.
I mean...
A "warning", a "talking to"... means very little.
A booking changes your mindset in how you go into challenges. A "talking to" means you're just likely to get booked at some point - but not sent off and crippling to your team.
I don't know if you ever played any competitive football.
I have, I'm some other guys here have, at least on youth level.
A booking goes into your head and changes your game. Much like the lines on the pitch do.
You don't make the same challenges inside the box as you do outside the box.
There's a reason why guys like Gattuso ot Torricelli got loads and loads of yellow cards in their careers, but only got sent off a handful of times.
You play one way before the booking, but you let up after it. It's just what you have to do unless you want to hurt your team.
...
Like Dani Alves last night, for example.
He was riding Neymar every time - until he got booked at something like 27 minutes.
After that, he was much more careful and barely committed a foul.
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JordanStaal#1Fan
Yes, les Habs, as ridiculous as it sounds (and it does sound very ridiculous), there is a town in Quebec called "Asbestos" and I (un)fortunately grew up there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestos,_Quebec
That being said, I would have a question for you... do you consider Suarez should have been booked for his awful dive against PSG? You know, the dive that led to that penalty...
That being said, I would have a question for you... do you consider Suarez should have been booked for his awful dive against PSG? You know, the dive that led to that penalty...
You can keep repeating yourself, ignoring the facts that I've stated, but it doesn't matter. It still doesn't matter nor does it address that the fact that had he simply been booked he wouldn't have got away with all the fouls he did where he stopped attacking plays. It also doesn't allow for the possibility that he could have still been sent off. I get it, if a player's on a yellow he won't get sent off unless he's Neymar.
I have not remotely argued that a player didn't change his game after getting booked in a game where he didn't get booked. As is already painfully obvious, you don't read well, but still quote where I've said that he got booked. I won't hold my breath.
I don't think it's ridiculous to have a town called Asbestos and that wasn't what I said. That would be like replying to your post and saying something like "Ney". I said it didn't surprise me that you hailed form a town of that name considering your post (and the vast majority of posts).
Clear foul, clear penalty. Refs definitely did us a bunch of favors in that match as I've already noted.
Okay then, now we're getting somewhere.
So, what you're saying now, like me, is that Camacho would've likely changed his game had he gotten booked at some point?
Or do you think Dani Alves lets up after a booking, like thousands of other players playing high and low level football, but Camacho would be the one guy continuing with borderline challenges?
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JordanStaal#1Fan
Yeah, we are getting somewhere. You said that I said something that I clearly did not say and I corrected you, again.
No, that's not remotely what I'm saying.
Camacho very clearly could have continued with borderline challenges. If you actually watch the match and pay attention to such things you'd see it. And speaking of players never getting a second yellow, looks like Javi Martinez set a record in doing so today.
Your point and your post are two different things. You clearly misrepresented my posts.
As for my complaining about the refs, no, but just about. When you see your team get shafted by the refs over and over again you say something.
I saw the match, I watch most Barca matches - out of a point of view of a football fan who loves quality football, not a Barca fan looking through Barca-coloured glasses.
Based on what?
Seriously, based on what?
You're saying it's expected players let up after a booking (citing the Dani Alves example, as did I)... Except in case of Camacho?
Or Verratti? Because they were playing Barca, or what?
The dude (Camacho) has been booked 12 times this season. Sent off? Zero.
In fact, in 196 professional matches, he's been booked 61 times and sent off... Twice.
To me, those are exactly the stats of a guy who plays on the edge, will get a booking every 2 games, but is smart enough to let up after that booking, stay on the pitch, and not hurt his team.
So yeah... Based on what, exactly? Based on what would Camacho continue the borderline challenges?
Well then we actually have something in common.
Based on the match you supposedly watched and the evidence of his challenges in front of you. Again, whether he would have been sent off or not, he and Malaga still benefitted by the fact that he wasn't even booked when he should have been about four times.
I agree on that, but that's not the same as saying he should've been sent off.
Yes, Camacho playing more aggressive would be undoable for him if he were on a yellow card (as he should've been, at some point).
And yes, I agree that Malaga certainly loses a bit of edge if he's booked and has to think twice about challenges and potentially letting his team down with a red.
But that's entirely different as saying he should've been sent off, or that he would've continued his aggressive play had he gotten booked - based on no evidence whatsoever - in fact, based on his career, it's REALLY safe to assume he does let up after getting booked.
It's not the same and I didn't say it was, but the fact remains he still should have been sent off. When you make at least two bookable offenses in a match, you should be booked twice and thus sent off. He made about four and thus should have been sent off.
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