Rumor: Kyper: Dermott and Holl available for a trade

Nylanderthal

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Jun 9, 2010
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Holl selected by Seattle and Kerfoot moved for a pick. Frees up 5.5m in cap space, more than enough to replace Holl and we could’ve kept McCann who is a better player/fit than Kerfoot.
If one of JT or Matthews goes down for an extended period of time who’s playing 2C?
You can suggest McCann in a vacuum is a better player than Kerfoot, but Alex is a known commodity in the room and has chemistry with some of the better players on the team, all the while he able to play LW anywhere in the top 9 and C in the middle 6.
If you keep McCann you don’t sign Ritchie & you have that cap difference to replace Holl (1.5ish)
 

TheShape

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Oct 25, 2018
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McCann is a worse defensive player and was taken off of the PK in PIT because he was not very good there (and has yet to go there in SEA either). The same happened with him as a center (not only because he couldn't take draws, but also because he was just not a good fit at center).

McCann had a really hot year last year. His SH% was much higher than his average (which is the same thing he has going for him early on this year in SEA as well) and he was able to double his PP rate. I wouldn't be surprised if the Leafs preferred Kerfoot, because if McCann reverted back to his averages, he brings similar offense with less defense and no PK ability.

Kerfoot isn't much of a center either considering the coaching staff have moved him to the wing. So now we're talking top 6 LWs and I'm taking McCann who is younger, cheaper and higher offensive upside than Kerfoot. As for the defensive stuff, we have enough defensive forwards in our bottom 6 who contribute next to nothing offensively who could've absorbed Kerfoot's role.

He isn't worth 3.5m on the cap considering our salary situation but management seem to think highly of the player.
 

Apex Predator

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Jun 21, 2019
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It wasn't a mistake. Then or now.

It was the right move. Then and now.

depending if Holl is traded and for what I don’t think we can say it’s right the right move now.

As for then it’s debatable on both ends if it was the right move.
 

TheShape

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Oct 25, 2018
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If one of JT or Matthews goes down for an extended period of time who’s playing 2C?
You can suggest McCann in a vacuum is a better player than Kerfoot, but Alex is a known commodity in the room and has chemistry with some of the better players on the team, all the while he able to play LW anywhere in the top 9 and C in the middle 6.
If you keep McCann you don’t sign Ritchie & you have that cap difference to replace Holl (1.5ish)

Neither McCann nor Kerfoot are anything to rave about at C and we're in trouble if either had to step in at 2C for an extended period of time. We know what Kerfoot is at this point, McCann had potential and higher upside in our top 6. And when given the choice between the two, Seattle tend to agree. Give me McCann at 2.9m.

Not signing Ritchie sounds like a great idea.
 
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seanlinden

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Apr 28, 2009
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Holl selected by Seattle and Kerfoot moved for a pick. Frees up 5.5m in cap space, more than enough to replace Holl and we could’ve kept McCann who is a better player/fit than Kerfoot.

$5.5m in cap freed by losing Kerfoot & Holl, $2.95m of which McCann occupies, leaving just $2.55m to replace Holl. Plus, I don't think the Leafs (or penguins, or kraken) have all that much faith in McCann as a centre -- whereas Kerfoot is a more than competent 2nd line centre.

Strictly as a top 6 winger, yes, McCann is likely better than Kerfoot. The Leafs probably knew that -- but valued the versatility & defensive ability moreso than "pigeon-holing" McCann/Kerfoot into the role of top 6 LW.

Kerfoot isn't much of a center either considering the coaching staff have moved him to the wing. So now we're talking top 6 LWs and I'm taking McCann who is younger, cheaper and higher offensive upside than Kerfoot. As for the defensive stuff, we have enough defensive forwards in our bottom 6 who contribute next to nothing offensively who could've absorbed Kerfoot's role.

He isn't worth 3.5m on the cap considering our salary situation but management seem to think highly of the player.

Kerfoot isn't much of a shutdown C (hence why replaced by Kampf), but he's a perfect guy to be able to jump into a 2nd line centre role if injuries occur. He'd probably make a quite reasonable 3rd line C as well, if the Leafs were prepared to spread their wealth over 3 lines.
 

TheShape

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$5.5m in cap freed by losing Kerfoot & Holl, $2.95m of which McCann occupies, leaving just $2.55m to replace Holl. Plus, I don't think the Leafs (or penguins, or kraken) have all that much faith in McCann as a centre -- whereas Kerfoot is a more than competent 2nd line centre.

Strictly as a top 6 winger, yes, McCann is likely better than Kerfoot. The Leafs probably knew that -- but valued the versatility & defensive ability moreso than "pigeon-holing" McCann/Kerfoot into the role of top 6 LW.

Kerfoot isn't much of a shutdown C (hence why replaced by Kampf), but he's a perfect guy to be able to jump into a 2nd line centre role if injuries occur. He'd probably make a quite reasonable 3rd line C as well, if the Leafs were prepared to spread their wealth over 3 lines.

This may come off as super GM mode but I'd say there would've been around 5m to replace Holl cause I don't see Dubas then making the Ritchie signing at 2.5m while still needing to replace Holl, but we'll never know.

Looking at the depth chart heading into the season Kerfoot was slotted for a 3rd line LW role and he's simply too expensive at 3.5m on a team starving for cap space. We have the in house replacements already at a cheaper cost who can PK like Kampf, Kase, Mikheyev, possibly Engvall? I don't have an issue with Kerfoot at 2m, but he's just not worth his cap hit.

There's no need for me to go in circles, IMO Kerfoot and Holl are interchangeable players and there's no real reason for management to be married to these types considering the playoff failure. Our depth scoring wasn't and isn't great, we had a player there in McCann fairly priced who could've helped in that regard but it was like yeah, whatever take him.
 

seanlinden

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This may come off as super GM mode but I'd say there would've been around 5m to replace Holl cause I don't see Dubas then making the Ritchie signing at 2.5m while still needing to replace Holl, but we'll never know.

Looking at the depth chart heading into the season Kerfoot was slotted for a 3rd line LW role and he's simply too expensive at 3.5m on a team starving for cap space. We have the in house replacements already at a cheaper cost who can PK like Kampf, Kase, Mikheyev, possibly Engvall? I don't have an issue with Kerfoot at 2m, but he's just not worth his cap hit.

There's no need for me to go in circles, IMO Kerfoot and Holl are interchangeable players and there's no real reason for management to be married to these types considering the playoff failure. Our depth scoring wasn't and isn't great, we had a player there in McCann fairly priced who could've helped in that regard but it was like yeah, whatever take him.

While I agree with you that if they lost Holl, they probably cannot go out and pursue Ritchie.... one of the priorities for the Leafs was to get bigger and grittier up front -- either by resigning Nick Foligno, or replacing him with a player of similar ilk. That's not really Jared McCann's game. Ritchie was likely a prime target for the Leafs and the team likely had far greater expectations for him than he's shown thus far.

As for where Kerfoot slotted in, I don't think the Leafs really went in with defined "numbers" of where the LWers would fit... they had/have Mikheyev, Bunting, Kerfoot, Ritchie & Engvall, with Engvall being the likely 13th forward -- a "sort themselves out" approach. Maybe internally they were thinking looked at Ritchie 1LW, Bunting 2LW, Mikheyev 3LW, and Kerfoot 4LW; but that's only because the other 3 guys have greater offensive upside; whereas Kerfoot is a known quantity. That "known quantity" element to his game makes him a good "match" with a bunch of boom-or-bust guys.

Yes, replace Kerfoot with McCann and you could've confidently slotted McCann into a top 6 role; but McCann doesn't bring what Ritchie can bring, and personally, I don't think it influences the decision to sign Ritchie.

It would however likely had influenced the decision to sign David Kampf... that was a risk the Leafs could afford to take, knowing full well that they had a "backup" 2/3C in Kerfoot should he not work out. McCann is more of a pure winger; so maybe it's not Kampf for $1.5m... maybe it's somebody else for $2m or more. If more than $2m, then you've got less than $2m to replace your top 4 RHD with size.... good luck with that.

Kerfoot was / is an interchangable part at his cap hit. If he were to disappear today, one can probably get a player similar to him with a similar cap hit for a 2nd-3rd round pick type of commitment. The same doesn't hold true for Holl. There wasn't anyone in UFA that was a Holl replacement for $2m....heck, I can't recall too many players being traded this offseason that would be considered "holl-replacements".

TLDR? Even if the Leafs preferred McCann at $2.9m vs Kerfoot at $3.5 (which i think is probably too close to argue definitively)... the "strength of preference" between those was nowhere near the "strength of preference" towards Justin Holl in comparison to the alternatives in that $2m to $2.6m range, even if they used Kerfoot or McCann as bait.
 
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Nylanderthal

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Jun 9, 2010
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Kerfoot v mccann arguments are stupid because it was never Kerfoot v mccann. Either they were both exposed or both protected. If you wanted to keep McCann and have Seattle claim Kerfoot then you’re also looking at giving up assets to Seattle for them to avoid their preferred choice.
 

Bluelines

Python FTW!
Nov 17, 2013
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So you suggest coming into a make or break season with a D core that has dermott Sandin & liljegren all penned in ink is a better move than having holl a 6’4” right shot D at 2m to help insulate of even one guy wasn’t capable? This is a good problem to have fallen into by having too many capable D.

Yep, I would have because of what the stats told me about Holl and McCann ... BTW with that defence they are 6-1 ... you're looking for certainties, you will never get that with any team. You have to go with what the stats tell you and the stats told us without Muzzin, Holl is at best, a bottom pairing dman. We know that McCann was a very good 3rd line center. Perhaps if we kept McCann, because of cap constraints, we would have never signed Ritchie?
 

JT AM da real deal

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Oct 4, 2018
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They are going to get at a minimum a 3rd back, very likely a 2nd or 3rd + depth piece/prospect. Even the media have already said that there's been a ton of interest so far, and that a deal fell through last Thursday. Historically, dmen of Holls calibre who are EVEN MORE expensive go for 2nd +, I showed that in the trade and free agency thread the other day
We will see .. Holl is lacking in too many hockey skills .. and his positioing as a Dman is horrific.. he is completely a fabrication of Muzzy... when Muzzy lost a step this year, like you again saw last night on 2nd goal against, it was da end for Holl who got exposed like a rented mule
 

LeafChief

Matthew Knies Enthusiast
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Yes most of these analytics numbers people who don't know a hockey stick from a lacrosse stick
Throughout time, people have always been afraid of things that they don't understand.

Analytics in addition to eye test = results. Using only one would be what a fool would do. You've already made your position clear on that, though.
 

JT AM da real deal

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I think the people using analytics in conjunction with the eye test are the most informed.

The ones who dismiss them are the ones who have no idea whats going on.
Dubie is classic case of a kid who never played who got a job he didn't deserve from his uncle and then went to school at Brock to get some paperwork and learn how to make presentations look good .. and he tricks people with analytics and presentations .. bottom line he does not have da ability to understand what it takes in pro hockey .. we have TOO many guys on this team who are not well rounded players .. TOO many skilled guys who can't skate fast .. TOO many fast guys with limited skills .. thank god we got Matty is he is closest player we got to da full package
 

LeafChief

Matthew Knies Enthusiast
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Dubie is classic case of a kid who never played who got a job he didn't deserve from his uncle and then went to school at Brock to get some paperwork and learn how to make presentations look good .. and he tricks people with analytics and presentations .. bottom line he does not have da ability to understand what it takes in pro hockey .. we have TOO many guys on this team who are not well rounded players .. TOO many skilled guys who can't skate fast .. TOO many fast guys with limited skills .. thank god we got Matty is he is closest player we got to da full package
How much hockey did Julien Brisebois play? Oh sorry let me translate for you.

How much of da hockey did da Julien Brisebois play?
 

JT AM da real deal

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Oct 4, 2018
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Throughout time, people have always been afraid of things that they don't understand.

Analytics in addition to eye test = results. Using only one would be what a fool would do. You've already made your position clear on that, though.
WRONG 1st step is you identify if a player is gonna have da speed, size and hockey smarts to be a pro player .. these are in addition to skill with puck which Leafs focus too much effort on .. those determinations need to be made by hockey people 1st ... then you can play around with whatever analytics you want .. as Dubie himself said hockey analytics are in their INFANCY 2 years ago at camp in Niagara and as per Dubie they will not even use today's metric in 20 years .. so you guys that use and talk about them like gospel are da real issue .. and even then da guy Dubie says hockey is 30% flat out luck and may never be explained .. OMG
 

LeafChief

Matthew Knies Enthusiast
Mar 5, 2013
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WRONG 1st step is you identify if a player is gonna have da speed, size and hockey smarts to be a pro player .. these are in addition to skill with puck which Leafs focus too much effort on .. those determinations need to be made by hockey people 1st ... then you can play around with whatever analytics you want .. as Dubie himself said hockey analytics are in their INFANCY 2 years ago at camp in Niagara and as per Dubie they will not even use today's metric in 20 years .. so you guys that use and talk about them like gospel are da real issue .. and even then da guy Dubie says hockey is 30% flat out luck and may never be explained .. OMG
This post should be in a museum.
 

JT AM da real deal

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How much hockey did Julien Brisebois play? Oh sorry let me translate for you.

How much of da hockey did da Julien Brisebois play?
He inherited a team drafted by other people .. he obviously is a good legal beagle and an astute legal contract negotiator who I would hire for contract positions
 

LeafChief

Matthew Knies Enthusiast
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He inherited a team drafted by other people .. he obviously is a good legal beagle and an astute legal contract negotiator who I would hire for contract positions
Doesn't every GM inherit a team drafted by other people?

But that wasn't your point. Your point was that in order to be successful, you have to have played the game. Don't argue against yourself.
 
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JT AM da real deal

Registered User
Oct 4, 2018
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Doesn't every GM inherit a team drafted by other people?

But that wasn't your point. Your point was that in order to be successful, you have to have played the game. Don't argue against yourself.
Steve Y drafted and selected all da key players on da team
 

SeaOfBlue

The Passion That Unites Us All
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I think the people using analytics in conjunction with the eye test are the most informed.

The ones who dismiss them are the ones who have no idea whats going on.

Throughout time, people have always been afraid of things that they don't understand.

Analytics in addition to eye test = results. Using only one would be what a fool would do. You've already made your position clear on that, though.

My favourites are the people who think people like Dubas only use spreadsheets to make decisions... Those are the ones I seriously question have even seen a spreadsheet in their lives.

That and people who think Dubas is an "analytics" person. He is a business person who, at best, would probably be considered a Business Analyst (and that is assuming he knows a little bit about coding) in terms of his knowledge about data. I even question if the Chayka's can be considered "data" people, but they are often paraded around like such too.
 

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