Kyle Dubas

[zeke]

Dubas is doing everything perfectly.

Targetting elite talent at the top of the roster, making damn sure not to pay for depth talent, and making damn sure to get rid of the plugs at the bottom of the roster.

I literally couldn't be happier.

 

[Pookie]

They were offering 6.5 for much of the hold out. (That's within the range you described).
At the 11th hour Willy came down 7, and the met him almost instantly.(That's the very top of the range)

They were within range when they made the comments, Willy wasn't.

You said that if someone was willing to trade for him then they must be okay with the salary demands, so the Leafs either needed to pay that or trade him. At that time the salary demand was out of range.

I'm glad we have competent management rather than those that would blink at imagined market forces.

You have absolutely no knowledge of where the Leafs were through the process.

In fact, we had the tweet from Savard that said $6.9M will get Nylander under contract. Do you really think that the team leaked that? Makes no sense to a reasonable person.

As far as what the market would pay, it could be that Nylander found out that the market would do 6.5-7 but not much interest at his opening position.

Accepted view around the league is that the team caved. In the quest to build a tough image, that’s a fail.

Good news is that it won’t matter. This whole exercise was silly. Matthews and Marner will do what Matthews and Marner want to do.

 

[Pookie]

Dubas is doing everything perfectly.

Targetting elite talent at the top of the roster, making damn sure not to pay for depth talent, and making damn sure to get rid of the plugs at the bottom of the roster.

I literally couldn't be happier.

Marleau

 

[Menzinger]

The Leivo trade is not about winning or losing. He made a decision to give a player a fresh start and acquire some cap space which will help at the TDL or absorbing the overage bonuses. He acquired a player that might or not make it to the NHL but can help the AHL team and help prospects down there.

Leivo was never going to play meaningful minutes on the top 6 so they gave him a fresh start. Dubas is building credibility among agents around the league and players on his own team. You don't think agents noticed that he told Leivo if he wasn't going to play here he would deal him. With Willy back one of Gauthier, Leivo were going to be moved or sit in the pressbox. He moved the winger instead of the C.

We didn't win the trade on paper but Dubas did well regardless of the optics.

Yep, Mirtle has a very interesting comments about this, about how he told the player he was going to be fair to him, and if he wasn’t going to get a chance to play out the season with the leafs he’d be moved.

Dubas is going to develop a strong reputation with agents and players, treating them fairly. Which is a bit of a change from how things used to be in recent years the leaves with some guys ending the relationship of the team pretty bitterly.

 

[Menzinger]

Marleau

What’s he supposed to do here?

 

[4thline]

You have absolutely no knowledge of where the Leafs were through the process.

In fact, we had the tweet from Savard that said $6.9M will get Nylander under contract. Do you really think that the team leaked that? Makes no sense to a reasonable person.

As far as what the market would pay, it could be that Nylander found out that the market would do 6.5-7 but not much interest at his opening position.

Accepted view around the league is that the team caved. In the quest to build a tough image, that’s a fail.

Per Lebrun

"Well, it didn’t happen sooner because the Leafs wouldn’t go past $6.5 million until late in the game and the Nylander camp began the process above $8 million and wouldn’t go below $7 million until very late."
LeBrun: Which side won the Nylander deal? NHL executives and...

End of the day - the Leafs were offering a bottom end fair contract, ended up with a high end fair contract.
Nylander was asking a huge overpay, ended up at the high end of fair.
Which falls directly in line with Shanahan's comments being about coming down into fair, not about accepting a low ball.

Re: Market. That's almost certainly what happened. Because they gave it time to play out and didn't "blink" in October.

As to the bold, nope. Views from agents and execs are as conflicted as on this board. Kypreos and Burke aren't indicators of anything but themselves.

 

[thewave]

Dubas is doing everything perfectly.

Targetting elite talent at the top of the roster, making damn sure not to pay for depth talent, and making damn sure to get rid of the plugs at the bottom of the roster.

I literally couldn't be happier.

Doing everything perfectly unless you want to win a cup.

McBackup Leivo and Carrick mattered to winning a cup because those are high quality depth players. We now have Sparks Marincin and Holl. I am sorry but that isn't going to cut it. He completely dropped the ball. The depth carries you to the finish line in a cup run, the clutch kid like Kappy hopefully wins it for you. That's how this works a lot of the time.

Summary... Dubas needlessly messed up our depth.

 

[thewave]

Per Lebrun

"Well, it didn’t happen sooner because the Leafs wouldn’t go past $6.5 million until late in the game and the Nylander camp began the process above $8 million and wouldn’t go below $7 million until very late."
LeBrun: Which side won the Nylander deal? NHL executives and...

End of the day - the Leafs were offering a bottom end fair contract, ended up with a high end fair contract.
Nylander was asking a huge overpay, ended up at the high end of fair.
Which falls directly in line with Shanahan's comments being about coming down into fair, not about accepting a low ball.

Re: Market. That's almost certainly what happened. Because they gave it time to play out and didn't "blink" in October.

As to the bold, nope. Views from agents and execs are as conflicted as on this board. Kypreos and Burke aren't indicators of anything but themselves.

There is only one correct way to view this... My way...

-Stat adjusted Nylander was coming off an off season.
-Stat adjusted Nylander was worth no more than about 6.4m-6.5m MAX (6years)
-Nylander was paid 7.5m x 6years less 3m for the time it took to hold out.
-Nylander has an AAV of essentially 7m which is above Pasta who gave up 2 instead of 1 UFA year
-Pasta is the superior player by an entire bracket
-Toronto got taken to the cleaners by Gross due to Dubas leaving Cap hanging in the wind. If that cap was not there, it could not be used as leverage and that's the end of it.

Add: Toronto now has to pay for his uselessness for 20 games as he gets up to speed, another cost incurred by the team.

 

[zeke]

Marleau

watch.

 

[zeke]

Doing everything perfectly unless you want to win a cup.

McBackup Leivo and Carrick mattered to winning a cup because those are high quality depth players. We now have Sparks Marincin and Holl. I am sorry but that isn't going to cut it. He completely dropped the ball. The depth carries you to the finish line in a cup run, the clutch kid like Kappy hopefully wins it for you. That's how this works a lot of the time.

Summary... Dubas needlessly messed up our depth.

there is no difference between those players.

 

[thewave]

there is no difference between those players.

Please enlighten me. Explain to me how Sparks is as good as McBackup. How it is better to have Marincin over someone like Leivo or how Holl is better than Carrick. Just when I think you get it, you post one of these crazies out of the hat.

 

[topched]

Doing everything perfectly unless you want to win a cup.

McBackup Leivo and Carrick mattered to winning a cup because those are high quality depth players. We now have Sparks Marincin and Holl. I am sorry but that isn't going to cut it. He completely dropped the ball. The depth carries you to the finish line in a cup run, the clutch kid like Kappy hopefully wins it for you. That's how this works a lot of the time.

Summary... Dubas needlessly messed up our depth.

I’ll concede Mcillhenney today on the premise that his numbers are better than Sparks, but do you really think it matters? We’re 4-1-1 in Sparks games, there’s no chance Babs has given Mcillhenney any more games than Sparks has had to date. Evidence: last season

Leivo has been gone 2 games, Marincin and Holl have played a combined 7 games, 2 less than Carrick has played. These are all players who have had little to no effect on the seasons outcome so far. You would be hard pressed to make a factual argument otherwise.

Now, if you want to say I *think* Dubas *may* have screwed up trading our depth, sure. Let’s see what happens if we run into injuries and the likes of Marincin, Holl, Sparks and Moore have to play for an extended period. But until then, not sure you can make an argument that Dubas as screwed up our fringe nhl depth. Press box performance doesn’t affect on ice results.

 

[thewave]

I’ll concede Mcillhenney today on the premise that his numbers are better than Sparks, but do you really think it matters? We’re 4-1-1 in Sparks games, there’s no chance Babs has given Mcillhenney any more games than Sparks has had to date. Evidence: last season

Leivo has been gone 2 games, Marincin and Holl have played a combined 7 games, 2 less than Carrick has played. These are all players who have had little to no effect on the seasons outcome so far. You would be hard pressed to make a factual argument otherwise.

Now, if you want to say I *think* Dubas *may* have screwed up trading our depth, sure. Let’s see what happens if we run into injuries and the likes of Marincin, Holl, Sparks and Moore have to play for an extended period. But until then, not sure you can make an argument that Dubas as screwed up our fringe nhl depth. Press box performance doesn’t affect on ice results.

Look, just watch... The Leafs are going to have to make trades now to fix the 4th line and solidify the D. They also may need to trade for a tender going into the PO. Just wait and see, pretty confident we need to spend to basically gain back what we needlessly gave away. It's not the end of the world, it's just stupid and suggests they aren't serious about winning this season.

 

[hotpaws]

Yep, Mirtle has a very interesting comments about this, about how he told the player he was going to be fair to him, and if he wasn’t going to get a chance to play out the season with the leafs he’d be moved.

Dubas is going to develop a strong reputation with agents and players, treating them fairly. Which is a bit of a change from how things used to be in recent years the leaves with some guys ending the relationship of the team pretty bitterly.

wasn't it rumored Aaltonen asked Dubas for a trade and when he refused bolted for the K ?

 

[zeke]

Please enlighten me. Explain to me how Sparks is as good as McBackup. How it is better to have Marincin over someone like Leivo or how Holl is better than Carrick. Just when I think you get it, you post one of these crazies out of the hat.

Sparks is as good as McBackup. And nobody wins the cup with their backup, anyways.

Marincin and Holl are both as good as carrick. maybe better.

I do like Leivo though. But Babcock gets the blame for that.

In general, our 4th line and 3rd pair have been far, far better than they were last year. A very nice upgrade there.

 

[topched]

Look, just watch... The Leafs are going to have to make trades now to fix the 4th line and solidify the D. They also may need to trade for a tender going into the PO. Just wait and see, pretty confident we need to spend to basically gain back what we needlessly gave away. It's not the end of the world, it's just stupid and suggests they aren't serious about winning this season.

There we go. Yes I agree, let’s watch and see.

My argument is that we’ll find that the adds on D and up front to would have happened regardless of whether we kept Leivo and Carrick etc. If we are adding, it’s to give us impact players, not to add to the list of guys flirting with the healthy scratch.

I don’t see a reason to add a goalie at all. If we need to there’s plenty that have hit waivers (Johnson for example) that are available at no cost. The reality is unless we’re going and getting a seriously paid proven starter (never happening), this team will not win without a healthy and performing Andersen. The backup will not matter in the playoffs, if they’re playing the season is lost.

 

[thewave]

Sparks is as good as McBackup. And nobody wins the cup with their backup, anyways.

Marincin and Holl are both as good as carrick. maybe better.

I do like Leivo though. But Babcock gets the blame for that.

In general, our 4th line and 3rd pair have been far, far better than they were last year. A very nice upgrade there.

One position I know very well is Tender and I will tell you right now, Sparks is an uncontrolled basket-case of a tender. He is about as big a joke as they come and should have a 4 Leaf clover on his bucket because that's all that he has going for him.

Carrick is not in the same bracket as those guys at all.. Just no, not at all. How? lol

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Per Lebrun

"Well, it didn’t happen sooner because the Leafs wouldn’t go past $6.5 million until late in the game and the Nylander camp began the process above $8 million and wouldn’t go below $7 million until very late."
LeBrun: Which side won the Nylander deal? NHL executives and...

End of the day - the Leafs were offering a bottom end fair contract, ended up with a high end fair contract.
Nylander was asking a huge overpay, ended up at the high end of fair.
Which falls directly in line with Shanahan's comments being about coming down into fair, not about accepting a low ball.

Re: Market. That's almost certainly what happened. Because they gave it time to play out and didn't "blink" in October.

As to the bold, nope. Views from agents and execs are as conflicted as on this board. Kypreos and Burke aren't indicators of anything but themselves.

I love this. Nylander refuses to “drop below 7 until very late.” And then he did the remarkable, and signed for 6.96

That o.o4 difference is one of the most selfless acts I’ve seen in professional sports. Lol

 

[JT AM da real deal]

There are a few 500 pound gorrilla issues which will define Dubas
1. Matty signing and CAP
2. Marner signing and CAP
3. Getting vet defense help for Cup run this year
4. Trading Gards for defense and pick
5. Kappy signing and CAP
6. Development of Sandin and Lilly
7. Continue smart drafting of defense

 

[Throw More Waffles]

There is only one correct way to view this... My way...

-Stat adjusted Nylander was coming off an off season.
-Stat adjusted Nylander was worth no more than about 6.4m-6.5m MAX (6years)
-Nylander was paid 7.5m x 6years less 3m for the time it took to hold out.
-Nylander has an AAV of essentially 7m which is above Pasta who gave up 2 instead of 1 UFA year
-Pasta is the superior player by an entire bracket
-Toronto got taken to the cleaners by Gross due to Dubas leaving Cap hanging in the wind. If that cap was not there, it could not be used as leverage and that's the end of it.

Add: Toronto now has to pay for his uselessness for 20 games as he gets up to speed, another cost incurred by the team.

It’s true.

Only maple leaf fans look at things like “good zone entries” (lol), to offset getting 14 less goals/10 less points than a “comparable” player.

 

[topched]

There are a few 500 pound gorrilla issues which will define Dubas
1. Matty signing and CAP
2. Marner signing and CAP
3. Getting vet defense help for Cup run this year
4. Trading Gards for defense and pick
5. Kappy signing and CAP
6. Development of Sandin and Lilly
7. Continue smart drafting of defense

Agree on 1-3 and 6/7 (drafting and development in general are important in any org.)

We are not trading Gardiner. 3/4 is contradictory. Either you add a name to the current group to make a run or you subtract. Doesn’t make sense to try and add a vet inn D to the top 4 while simultaneously trading your 2nd or 3rd best D. See JVR last year.

On 5 - I think this board will lose their mind next offseason. There is not room under the cap for Gardiner and/or vet replacement, Matthews, Marner and both of Johnson and Kapanen. Something has to give. Either Gard walks and current D men step up, one of Johnsson or Kap are traded, or another decent piece moves, like Zaitsev. Either way this team will be forced to move roster talent for prospects or multiple cheap roster pieces with upside. That should be your other judgement piece.

 

[Trapper]

The real test begins in game 83.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

I understand (sort of) why gm’s and Cap specialists look at it that way.

But why does tsn and sportsnet bother with it? All it’s done is confused everybody. If Nylander’s actual very real cap hit this year is 6.9 million against our overall season salary cap, then that’s what should be listed.

Well, I think it's just a misconception of AAV v.s. cap hit. The AAV defines the daily accumulating cap hit, that's all -- most don't realize it. Media is consistent with reporting on AAV in contracts, and it was talked about so much before the signing as a "point of interest" that I feel like they couldn't back away from discussing it like that.

I do think lots of media outlets overplayed the significance of the increased AAV in year 1 and the decreased AAV in the out-years. They presented as though they were tied together which gave many the idea that it was some kind of loop hole where the cap hit magically gets "weighted" into the first year, but they are actually adjusted for completely different reasons. CapFriendly annoyingly enough didn't clarify any of that -- I think they were just loving the clicks and exposure from Leafs fans excited that there was some genius at play.

 

[4thline]

wasn't it rumored Aaltonen asked Dubas for a trade and when he refused bolted for the K ?

IIRC that was Dzierkals, Aaltonen wanted guarantees

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Agree on 1-3 and 6/7 (drafting and development in general are important in any org.)

We are not trading Gardiner. 3/4 is contradictory. Either you add a name to the current group to make a run or you subtract. Doesn’t make sense to try and add a vet inn D to the top 4 while simultaneously trading your 2nd or 3rd best D. See JVR last year.

On 5 - I think this board will lose their mind next offseason. There is not room under the cap for Gardiner and/or vet replacement, Matthews, Marner and both of Johnson and Kapanen. Something has to give. Either Gard walks and current D men step up, one of Johnsson or Kap are traded, or another decent piece moves, like Zaitsev. Either way this team will be forced to move roster talent for prospects or multiple cheap roster pieces with upside. That should be your other judgement piece.

Gards is like Phaneuf. Everyone is saying the right things about him now about wanting to re-sign yadayadayada. But they are going to trade him before the playoffs. Like it or not he was viewed as reason we lost 2 of Boston games. He does not have the toolbox to play defense he has the tools but not the box. And he has some technical issues on his pivot which have been hard to correct. When the right defense trade comes around before deadline he will part of the package. Even if he left earlier it would present no loss to the team. He does not move the needle.