Kyle Dubas Discussion

[Rants Mulliniks]

Taking the child anology further, in this case you would discipline Kadri with say diminished ice time until he proves himself.

The child anology based on what happened would be hey son, we told you not to hit that other kid at school, you did, you got suspended, and now were putting you up for adoption. Sorry, that's the consequences in our house.

A real parent would work with the kid to adjust and improve their behavior. Shanny and Dubas decided they didn't want to work with the player to improve, they decided to wash their hands of him. The result was the player being one of the elite players in the playoffs and the Leafs missing the 16 team traditional playoffs.

So from a parenting analogy, seems like the troublesome kid went to a foster family with much better parents, who turned the kids behavior around and then he went on to do great things. Meanwhile the old parents remaining kids all got bad grades and flunked out of school.

How long do you work with them?

Surprise, surprise, sometimes kids need their ass kicked to get it.

Double surprise, cost his team the playoffs, again.

 

[Fogelhund]

In the end, Dubas got the D man he wanted all along, in Brodie... he used Barrie as a stop gap, at a very cheap cap hit.

Who would you have signed, in the 2019 offseason, for $2.75 mil, or less, for one year?

Here is your list to choose from.

2019 NHL Free Agents Tracker

 

[Dekes For Days]

Who would you have signed, in the 2019 offseason, for $2.75 mil, or less, for one year?

It would actually be 1.75m available, because Kadri would cost 1m more than Kerfoot.

 

[Fogelhund]

It would actually be 1.75m available, because Kadri would cost 1m more than Kerfoot.

The reality is, nobody signed for between 2-3 million anyway...

Your choices last year, in that price bracket, were basically Sekera, Bogosian, Beaulieu, Hutton....

 

[egd27]

My opinion, this direction came from Shanahan... he'd been involved with Kadri personally, since 2015.

Possibly.....if so, then Dubas was forced into keeping Babcock and trading Kadri. Makes you wonder how much autonomy he actually has.

 

[Fogelhund]

Possibly.....if so, then Dubas was forced into keeping Babcock and trading Kadri. Makes you wonder how much autonomy he actually has.

It's a team right. There are probably areas that he has a great deal of autonomy, but then probably areas where others in the team get involved. I don't know that Dubas was forced into trading Kadri, given the past, they were probably on the same page really... but I do think it would have been Shanny that was leading this.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

He wasn't just a 3rd pairing PP specialist, but more importantly, not living up to expectations is not the same thing as being a "problem".

That's the thing. The defense was essentially never healthy, so him being there was important, and helped the team. Even if the defense was more healthy, we could have just as easily not had Holl break out, or we could have had Dermott struggle after major surgery. Even if you don't like Barrie as a player (which nobody was saying last year), that hole had to be filled, and possible options were limited. Even with him having a bad year, he helped carry us through our difficult situation last year.

A lot of people look exclusively at how a player plays within his own zone, but give absolutely no consideration to how a player prevents you from having to play in your own zone to start with.

He was definitely utilized as a 3rd pairing PP option when the defense wasn't decimated by injury. Would you call Dermott a 1st pairing defender because he played there when the entire left side but him got injuried?

The thing is if the leafs didn't trade for him they would have brought in another right defender. As a result any right shot defender would have 'helped the team' when the injuries piled up purely by just playing hockey. There were better options, Dubas went after Brodie first for example but Kadri veto'd that trade. Personally I was advocating against Barrie last year on the trade boards because I knew he wouldn't be a good fit. He was another Shattenkirk in the making, I.e. a defender you have to use very specifically to get the best out of them and the leafs didnt have a pairing to properly shelter Barrie nor had a proper partner for him.

 

[JayfromNB1219]

Not Dubas, the Leafs. Again 75% rated Marner a 4th liner.

I’d have to think that it isn’t based on skill, a donkey could see Mitch Marner is supremely talented, I’d say it has more to do with the perception of him after his contract negotiations bleeding into the fan base as a whole...not one person would come out and say he has 0 skill (and just because he’d be the one you trade doesn’t mean you don’t recognize he isn’t sublimely skilled) something to think about when you read theses responses

 

[Dekes For Days]

He was definitely utilized as a 3rd pairing PP option when the defense wasn't decimated by injury.

Even in the limited time where we were relatively healthy and he played on the 3rd pairing, he was getting significant minutes.

Would you call Dermott a 1st pairing defender because he played there when the entire left side but him got injuried?

What does this have to do with "first pairing defender"? Dermott was useful and helped the team a lot through the injuries as well.

The thing is if the leafs didn't trade for him they would have brought in another right defender.

We don't know that. There would have been very limited options. There weren't free agents in the price range that were anywhere near as good, and we needed both a team that:

1. Had a good right-handed defenseman on a sub-5.5m contract with 1 year left.
2. Would be willing to trade them.
3. Would be willing to retain the maximum amount on that contract.

Not to mention the fact that we'd need somebody who needed something that we had and were able to give away (like Kadri), and then we'd need to have a way to replace Kadri.

There were better options, Dubas went after Brodie first for example but Kadri veto'd that trade.

If the trade was vetoed, it's not an option. There is no evidence of better options.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Even in the limited time where we were relatively healthy and he played on the 3rd pairing, he was getting significant minutes.

What does this have to do with "first pairing defender"? Dermott was useful and helped the team a lot through the injuries as well.

We don't know that. There would have been very limited options. There weren't free agents in the price range that were anywhere near as good, and we needed both a team that:

1. Had a good right-handed defenseman on a sub-5.5m contract with 1 year left.
2. Would be willing to trade them.
3. Would be willing to retain the maximum amount on that contract.

Not to mention the fact that we'd need somebody who needed something that we had and were able to give away (like Kadri), and then we'd need to have a way to replace Kadri.

If the trade was vetoed, it's not an option. There is no evidence of better options.

Leafs didnt need a player who got significant minutes sheltered on the third pairing + PP.

I was trying to show that just because Dermott played on the top pairing during significant injuries it doesn't make him a top pairing defender. Just like how Barrie playing above the third pairing only during injuries doesnt make his role anything but a 3rd pairing defender who moves up because you have no other choice.

There were certainly other options im just not part of the leafs organization so I dont know what the cost of other players would have been via trade or free agency if they were able to move money around in via another trade.

The Brodie part was to show that Dubas clearly thought there were better options than Barrie as Barrie wasn't the first player he targeted.

 

[The CyNick]

How long do you work with them?

Surprise, surprise, sometimes kids need their ass kicked to get it.

Double surprise, cost his team the playoffs, again.

How many chances does Dubas get? Hes had three off seasons now and keeps making the team worse. By your "kick the kids ass" logic, shouldnt Dubas be shipped off by now? Hes had far more negative impact on the organization than Kadri's two playoff suspensions.

 

[The CyNick]

Even in the limited time where we were relatively healthy and he played on the 3rd pairing, he was getting significant minutes.

What does this have to do with "first pairing defender"? Dermott was useful and helped the team a lot through the injuries as well.

We don't know that. There would have been very limited options. There weren't free agents in the price range that were anywhere near as good, and we needed both a team that:

1. Had a good right-handed defenseman on a sub-5.5m contract with 1 year left.
2. Would be willing to trade them.
3. Would be willing to retain the maximum amount on that contract.

Not to mention the fact that we'd need somebody who needed something that we had and were able to give away (like Kadri), and then we'd need to have a way to replace Kadri.

If the trade was vetoed, it's not an option. There is no evidence of better options.

Your story falls apart pretty quickly.

Dubas initial trade target was a LEFT shot D-man. He clearly didn't care about left vs right. He picked Barrie because he thought Barrie was a good fit for the team. He ultimately went back to the left shooting Brodie in free agency. Suggesting L vs R wasnt a top priority. So in terms of finding a trade partner for Kadri, he was clearly looking for help on D regardless of the hand they shoot. Who knows what other deals were out there. It would shock you if you heard of the number of trade offers that get floated by teams but never see the light of day.

As with many of Dubas' player evaluations, he was wrong on Barrie. Just like he was wrong thinking AJ and KK were good fits in the medium term and worth tossing away a ton of assets to keep them. Just like he was wrong about 5 times with backup goalies. Just like he was wrong thinking Muzzin would be a good fit on the right side with Reilly. Theres a really consistent patter of Dubas being wrong.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Leafs didnt need a player who got significant minutes sheltered on the third pairing + PP.

That's not Barrie. Not before he came, or while here. He was important to have, even in a down year for him. He brought valuable aspects to the team, and helped us hang on while everybody was injured.

I was trying to show that just because Dermott played on the top pairing during significant injuries it doesn't make him a top pairing defender. Just like how Barrie playing above the third pairing only during injuries doesnt make his role anything but a 3rd pairing defender who moves up because you have no other choice.

What you think these players are (which is wildly off) is irrelevant in this discussion. We're discussing what these players did for us this year, and if they would have been missed.

There were certainly other options

If you're certain, please name them.

The Brodie part was to show that Dubas clearly thought there were better options than Barrie as Barrie wasn't the first player he targeted.

We know there was one better option (that would have come with a significant downgrade in the other asset acquired). We also know that option was not an option. By your logic, wouldn't you agree that Barrie was the 2nd best option, as Barrie was the second player he targeted?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Dubas initial trade target was a LEFT shot D-man. He clearly didn't care about left vs right.

Dubas' initial trade target was a right-side defensemen who had played pretty much his entire career on the right side.

As with many of Dubas' player evaluations, he was wrong on Barrie. Just like he was wrong thinking AJ and KK were good fits in the medium term and worth tossing away a ton of assets to keep them. Just like he was wrong about 5 times with backup goalies. Just like he was wrong thinking Muzzin would be a good fit on the right side with Reilly.

Dubas is excellent at player evaluation. There is always risk, especially when players are switching teams. He was not wrong on Barrie. Even in a down year, he brought valuable aspects to the team, and was an upgrade on any reasonable alternatives. Dubas did not "toss away a ton of assets" to keep Johnsson and Kapanen. With further development within our organization, their struggles/injuries, and with an unforeseen pandemic flat cap that necessitated moves, they were the most expendable options this year (and we received good returns), but throwing them away last year would have been a bad move. Dubas was not wrong 5 times with backup goalies; not even sure how you came up with that. Muzzin is a great player and acquisition who has helped this team a ton.

 

[ACC1224]

Leafs didnt need a player who got significant minutes sheltered on the third pairing + PP.

I was trying to show that just because Dermott played on the top pairing during significant injuries it doesn't make him a top pairing defender. Just like how Barrie playing above the third pairing only during injuries doesnt make his role anything but a 3rd pairing defender who moves up because you have no other choice.

There were certainly other options im just not part of the leafs organization so I dont know what the cost of other players would have been via trade or free agency if they were able to move money around in via another trade.

The Brodie part was to show that Dubas clearly thought there were better options than Barrie as Barrie wasn't the first player he targeted.

There would definitely have been ‘other’ options, have to trust that Dubas felt this was the 2nd best one. Obviously with hindsight they don’t make this trade again but all GMs have bad trades on their resume, it happens. Thankfully he knew enough not to double down on it and re-sign Barrie.

 

[BertCorbeau]

How many chances does Dubas get? Hes had three off seasons now and keeps making the team worse. By your "kick the kids ass" logic, shouldnt Dubas be shipped off by now? Hes had far more negative impact on the organization than Kadri's two playoff suspensions.

We’ve only seen the impact of moves made for two off seasons. Jury’s still out on the third and how they fare this upcoming season.

 

[4thline]

We’ve only seen the impact of moves made for two off seasons. Jury’s still out on the third and how they fare this upcoming season.

The the result of the 1st off-season was neutral

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

How many chances does Dubas get? Hes had three off seasons now and keeps making the team worse. By your "kick the kids ass" logic, shouldnt Dubas be shipped off by now? Hes had far more negative impact on the organization than Kadri's two playoff suspensions.

....except of course we all know Kadri has been taken to task several other times in his tenure. Cute spin though.

 

[tmlfan98]

The reality is, nobody signed for between 2-3 million anyway...

Your choices last year, in that price bracket, were basically Sekera, Bogosian, Beaulieu, Hutton....

You say that as if Sekera and Hutton weren't great 3rd pairing dmen last year, which is where Barrie ended up anyway.

Muzzin-Holl
Rielly-Ceci
Sekera/Hutton-Dermott

Would have been optimal when considering that Kadri wouldn't have been moved.

 

[Fogelhund]

You say that as if Sekera and Hutton weren't great 3rd pairing dmen last year, which is where Barrie ended up anyway.

Muzzin-Holl
Rielly-Ceci
Sekera/Hutton-Dermott

Would have been optimal when considering that Kadri wouldn't have been moved.

Sure, Sekera or Hutton would have really stepped up and provided the offense that Barrie did, particularly leading the PP, when Reilly went down.

Kadri wouldn't have been moved? Kadri was moved, because of repeated transgressions, insubordinations, internal warnings and suspenions, immaturity, and the final straw being the playoff suspensions... he wasn't moved to improve the team, he was moved, as he'd run out of chances.

 

[tmlfan98]

Sure, Sekera or Hutton would have really stepped up and provided the offense that Barrie did, particularly leading the PP, when Reilly went down.

Kadri wouldn't have been moved? Kadri was moved, because of repeated transgressions, insubordinations, internal warnings and suspenions, immaturity, and the final straw being the playoff suspensions... he wasn't moved to improve the team, he was moved, as he'd run out of chances.

I didn't word my post correctly. I was basically disagreeing with anyone arguing that we hypothetically would have been worse off by keeping Kadri and signing a cheaper 3rd pair dman.

 

[The CyNick]

We’ve only seen the impact of moves made for two off seasons. Jury’s still out on the third and how they fare this upcoming season.

Yes, everyone knows this. If tje trend continues, Leafs will be a lottery team. Possibly only saved by a short season and favorable division. But, yes jury is out on the third season. On paper it looks similar to last year.

 

[The CyNick]

....except of course we all know Kadri has been taken to task several other times in his tenure. Cute spin though.

It's not spin. It's spin to say Kadri has been a problem his whole run in Toronto. If anything, what the team really lacks is more players who give a damn like Kadri did. But Dubas wanted a team of ballet dancers. He got his way and look what happened. Meanwhile Kadri was a warrior for Colorado.

 

[The CyNick]

Dubas' initial trade target was a right-side defensemen who had played pretty much his entire career on the right side.

Dubas is excellent at player evaluation. There is always risk, especially when players are switching teams. He was not wrong on Barrie. Even in a down year, he brought valuable aspects to the team, and was an upgrade on any reasonable alternatives. Dubas did not "toss away a ton of assets" to keep Johnsson and Kapanen. With further development within our organization, their struggles/injuries, and with an unforeseen pandemic flat cap that necessitated moves, they were the most expendable options this year (and we received good returns), but throwing them away last year would have been a bad move. Dubas was not wrong 5 times with backup goalies; not even sure how you came up with that. Muzzin is a great player and acquisition who has helped this team a ton.

Your statement was Dubas was looking for a right SHOT d man. Now you're moving the goal posts and mentioning a guy who has played the right side. Lots of guys have played the right side. When Muzzin was acquired he was meant to play on the right side with Reilly. That didn't go well. Dubas didn't do his homework on how ineffective Muzzin would be on the right side. Remains to be seen how Brodie works, but your narrative that Brodie and Barrie were the only options out there is just false. Dubas made a horrible horrible trade and you can't admit it. Sad.

 

[IPS]

Your statement was Dubas was looking for a right SHOT d man. Now you're moving the goal posts and mentioning a guy who has played the right side. Lots of guys have played the right side. When Muzzin was acquired he was meant to play on the right side with Reilly. That didn't go well. Dubas didn't do his homework on how ineffective Muzzin would be on the right side. Remains to be seen how Brodie works, but your narrative that Brodie and Barrie were the only options out there is just false. Dubas made a horrible horrible trade and you can't admit it. Sad.

Are you seriously pushing this nuance? What does it even matter? RHD and RHS are used interchangeably all the time. Hjalmarrson in Chicago was one of the best shutdown D of last era and he was a LHD who played the right side.