stickty111
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- Jan 23, 2017
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if Dubas a had a higher IQ, he wouldn't let relationships get in the way of hockey
That poster continues to look bad.
Tribute Kyle Dubas discussion
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That poster continues to look bad.
He might not make a full recovery and could have a fear that he won't be offered a contract, or as generous a contract as he might otherwise have expected.
- Feb 9, 2007
- 10,188
- 3,632
While we need a backup and we should not be resorting to Marincin (though we have Liljegren and Sandin at our disposal), the forward depth is incredible. A lot of people complain we have 0 depth or that Dubas' Champion Marlies mean nothing cause its the AHL. Well look at all these players coming up and playing strong, capable minutes. Whether Moore last year, Timashov, Engvall, Brooks, Marchment.
These players have been groomed for this exact scenario, filling in for injuries and eventually replacing higher priced players at similar production. To maintain what we have, we will need to be a depth factory. Again defence* needs more, but up front the depth problem is a myth.
*Also to be fair, how many teams can say they have very competent 7, 8 and 9 defenders? Not an easy position to be loaded at. Guys like Marincin, Harper, Gravel and Schmaltz need to be improved upon, but really, you won't find that much better.
These players have been groomed for this exact scenario, filling in for injuries and eventually replacing higher priced players at similar production. To maintain what we have, we will need to be a depth factory. Again defence* needs more, but up front the depth problem is a myth.
*Also to be fair, how many teams can say they have very competent 7, 8 and 9 defenders? Not an easy position to be loaded at. Guys like Marincin, Harper, Gravel and Schmaltz need to be improved upon, but really, you won't find that much better.
WTFMAN99
Registered User
- Jun 17, 2009
- 33,059
- 11,074
I would say our top end of defense needs to be improved and back up goaltending is horrible.
Forward depth is insane.
Dubas has been fantastic in finding, developing and drafting forwards for us.
HamiltonNHL
Parity era hockey is just puck luck + draft luck
- Jan 4, 2012
- 21,017
- 11,574
deprw
Registered User
- Mar 7, 2010
- 1,403
- 784
I think signing Mikheyev last summer all ready made up for that and Robertson was great pick with 2nd rounder. Though I'd rather keep those 1st and 2nd round picks if possible.
Martin Skoula
Registered User
- Oct 18, 2017
- 11,759
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Moving Marleau was necessary to keep Kapanen and Johnsson (as well as Marner). I'm going to go out on a limb and say we could get back more than a 1st for the two of them if we needed the pick for whatever reason.
Bluebear
Registered User
- Nov 30, 2018
- 231
- 140
Why does a rookie GM in an organisation like MLSE have to be in charge of negotiating with agents, I mean no matter how seasoned the GM or who it was. why have any hockey guy handle contracts? Why wouldn't MLSE have some pro lawyer hammer out the details and get the best deal?
The Man with a Plan
Registered User
The only way you get experience is to actually do it. It's also ridiculous to assume that he was the only person from the management group that was a part of the process from start to finish.
Remember everyone saying how stupid signing spezza was
Morons
He’s been a huge add and presence for us
Morons
He’s been a huge add and presence for us
nuck
Schrodingers Cat
- Aug 18, 2005
- 11,414
- 2,488
I don't think most clubs actually use lawyers to negotiate the deals, they just create the paper to sign. That wasn't maybe the best call by Shanny but they both certainly had a reasonable hope they would be able to sign the big 3 for the same money the peer group was already getting. I believe this was a market correction year pushed by a concerted effort by the agents.
I would say Dubas warm and fuzzy approach didn't work with Willie, but it wasn't an unreasonable approach, it was just the wrong one for that guy. If Willie gets dealt for holding out I suspect that Matthews may have been an easier signing but that would have little effect on what team Marner felt Mitch's worth to be. Also, dealing an unsigned, greedy holdout isn't a recipe for getting the best return. It would have maybe been a July or August decision to get a good return.
Lou is an old shark but except for maybe trading Willie early into the season I don't know that he could have done much else with these three. Hindsight is easy, sign them all in the summer and don't worry about Mitch's bigger paycheck pissing off Nylander but I don't think it was apparent that Nylander would play it to the bone based on other contract conflicts in the last couple of years. If KD actually thought Nylander was prepared to sit that long, I do think Dubas may have dealt him unless $6.9M was Willie's line in the sand all along. 6.9s a bit of an overpay considering the games missed but paying that in September would not have sent the same weak message that the last minute deal did. By the time Matthews turn was up, Dubas was completely spent by the marathon battle with Nylander and in no shape to get into another fight, with Marner still to come. It all comes back to the flawed assumption the Nylander was not intending to reset the market and I don't think that was predictable.
I give Dubs a fail on the big 3 with half that actually falling on Shanahan who would have signed off on the contracts but that was a situation no Leafs GM in history had to deal with, so definitely with an asterisk. I like his trades. I don't like his vision of what a championship Leafs (ballet) lineup should look like, but a fairly successful playoff might prove me wrong. If there was a "not quite happy but more than adequate" that would be my choice. This is a good club and it would be unfair not to give a lot of the credit to the GM.
Seath The Scaleless
Paledrake
acrobaticgoalie
Registered User
- Jun 18, 2014
- 3,358
- 3,391
If Ryan Hartman could get a first, I don't see why Johnsson or Kapanen couldn't.
Semantics
PUBLIC ENEMY #1
The Man with a Plan
Registered User
I hope that is sarcasm... if not...
The same 20 games with a new head coach who set a leafs all time record for wins (15) in a new coaches first 20 games.
Dealing with new lines and injury after injury. Gave Babcock the talent and he failed so he got someone who is working wonders so far and making strides on our areas of weakness.
Long shots keep hitting and vets and rookies alike keep filling needed spots cheaply.
Dubas has referenced several times that Pridham drives the player contract negotiation. Believe he was a negotiator in the NHL/NHLPA CBA negotiations as well which is where the information comes from that he "wrote the CBA".
Rants Mulliniks
Registered User
- Jun 22, 2008
- 23,071
- 6,135
A chunk of that actually falls on Lou though as he set the entire table. He had a year to negotiate with Nylander but instead walked him to RFA. Dubas had about a month? Dubas couldn't negotiate Marner until he did Nylander and it was Marner (not Dubas) that refused to negotiate in season. Dubas couldn't make Lou's mistake and walk Matthews to RFA status. Throw into that things that were held against Dubas in negotiations that were on Lou (see bonuses to Marner) and I think you have to give at least 25% of that blame to Lou.
ACC1224
Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
- Aug 19, 2002
- 73,870
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lol, pretty funny how this small sample can sway the poll results.
I wonder how many have changed their votes?
Gary Nylund
Registered User
- Oct 10, 2013
- 30,026
- 22,407
Yeah, Dubas got exposed Monday night for sure. I believe in second chances though so I'm willing to give him one more game.
ACC1224
Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
- Aug 19, 2002
- 73,870
- 39,417
Monday is a one off for me, so far.
Test for me is once the games get tougher after the deadline and into the playoffs.
I'll re-evaluate in the summer.
deprw
Registered User
- Mar 7, 2010
- 1,403
- 784
Never said that it wasn't necessary and I also think that Muzzin trade was right move. Like I said I'd like to keep our 1st picks, but sometimes we have to make moves. In Marleau case Dubas was between rock and hard place, it was move we had to make. In some point I thought trading Marleau would be impossible last summer.
At the moment we have enough prospects and good farm team that we can make those moves.
Leafs GM Kyle Dubas handles latest dose of bad news with a shrug, or at least a parable about shrugs
In any event, in sports, watching in bars and living rooms, we mostly do know the rough consequences of many life events, at least as they pertain to our immediate self interest. For Leaf fans the consequence of Muzzin breaking his hand means the misfortune of watching some guys who probably ought to be in the minors play in the majors.
To which Dubas had to retort: Yeah, but the Chinese Farmer. Maybe this was Dubas with a pre-emptive brag: Don’t underestimate the power of the graduates of your Toronto Marlies, he might have been saying. The not-so-vaunted likes of Martin Marincin, Justin Holl, Travis Dermott, Timothy Liljegren, Rasmus Sandin and the just-reacquired Calle Rosen stand to play bigger NHL minutes than anyone might have imagined at the season’s outset, beginning with Thursday’s crucial road date with the Florida Panthers, where the two teams most likely to finish in third place in the Atlantic Division will play a proverbial four-point game.
Maybe this was Dubas saying to his team and its fan base: Don’t panic. The developmental system I masterminded has got this. Just assume your best downward dog and breathe. Oh, and check out the fruits of my latest trip down a YouTube rabbit hole.
If Dubas is attempting to brand himself a modern-day Zen-master — perhaps there’s an argument it makes good sense. An 11-time NBA champion coach named Phil Jackson once wrapped his sage-scented career with an appealing bit of mystery by alerting the dynastic Chicago Bulls to the virtues of group meditation and practice-court yoga. And given that Jackson’s best players included on-court assassins such as Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, you can see why Dubas might see Wednesday as a fine moment to take a page from Jackson’s playbook. Jordan and Bryant, of course, were offensive beasts who also showed monk-like dedication to hellacious defence.
With Toronto’s defence corps as depleted as it is — with Morgan Rielly and Cody Ceci both expected to be out until mid-March — Dubas can only hope his offensively gifted stars pay Jordan-esque heed to the less glamorous side of the game. But that’s a leap.
No, Dubas’s latest contribution to the popular discourse doesn’t feel as calculated as it seems impulsive. And it’s not his first foot-in-mouth indiscretion this week. Consider an overlooked aspect of his memorable press conference on Monday, the laughable tangential argument that Saturday’s 6-3 loss to the Hurricanes in the now-infamous Zamboni Driver game amounted to a “no-win situation.”
“If we won the game, it would be embarrassing as well, because you’re down 4-1 and then it’ll be a whole other set of controversy that would come up like ‘Oh geez, the Maple Leafs, it’s their own employee,’” Dubas said. “We were in a no-win situation in that game.”
That, of course, was a ridiculous contention. It wasn’t a no-win. It was a non-win. If the Leafs had scored eight goals on their eight shots on lovable David Ayres, it’s possible there might have been a few jokes cracked at the Leafs’ expense, sure. That Dubas expressed an ounce of concern with the potential blowback from that theoretical scenario — it’s the latest indication that he’s not only sensitive to criticism, he’s spending too much time anticipating it. He’s not just hyperaware of the current narrative. He’s now attempting to drive it.
You have to assume Brendan Shanahan, who lives a hermitlike existence as a rarely heard overseer, has already told him to stop. Then again, in the smarter-than-thou universe where there’s no differentiation between good fortune and misfortune, maybe it’s possible there’s a school of thought that insists there’s no difference between good publicity and the kind of the stuff Dubas has spent this week bringing on himself. All those years of Lou Lamoriello’s mentorship obviously rubbed off on the young grasshopper.
Or maybe Shanahan knows there’s no stopping him. This is Dubas trying to navigate the toughest challenge of his professional career. And maybe, just maybe, we’re seeing the outward signs that he’s in over his head, for better or worse. Only the Buddha knows.
In any event, in sports, watching in bars and living rooms, we mostly do know the rough consequences of many life events, at least as they pertain to our immediate self interest. For Leaf fans the consequence of Muzzin breaking his hand means the misfortune of watching some guys who probably ought to be in the minors play in the majors.
To which Dubas had to retort: Yeah, but the Chinese Farmer. Maybe this was Dubas with a pre-emptive brag: Don’t underestimate the power of the graduates of your Toronto Marlies, he might have been saying. The not-so-vaunted likes of Martin Marincin, Justin Holl, Travis Dermott, Timothy Liljegren, Rasmus Sandin and the just-reacquired Calle Rosen stand to play bigger NHL minutes than anyone might have imagined at the season’s outset, beginning with Thursday’s crucial road date with the Florida Panthers, where the two teams most likely to finish in third place in the Atlantic Division will play a proverbial four-point game.
Maybe this was Dubas saying to his team and its fan base: Don’t panic. The developmental system I masterminded has got this. Just assume your best downward dog and breathe. Oh, and check out the fruits of my latest trip down a YouTube rabbit hole.
If Dubas is attempting to brand himself a modern-day Zen-master — perhaps there’s an argument it makes good sense. An 11-time NBA champion coach named Phil Jackson once wrapped his sage-scented career with an appealing bit of mystery by alerting the dynastic Chicago Bulls to the virtues of group meditation and practice-court yoga. And given that Jackson’s best players included on-court assassins such as Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, you can see why Dubas might see Wednesday as a fine moment to take a page from Jackson’s playbook. Jordan and Bryant, of course, were offensive beasts who also showed monk-like dedication to hellacious defence.
With Toronto’s defence corps as depleted as it is — with Morgan Rielly and Cody Ceci both expected to be out until mid-March — Dubas can only hope his offensively gifted stars pay Jordan-esque heed to the less glamorous side of the game. But that’s a leap.
No, Dubas’s latest contribution to the popular discourse doesn’t feel as calculated as it seems impulsive. And it’s not his first foot-in-mouth indiscretion this week. Consider an overlooked aspect of his memorable press conference on Monday, the laughable tangential argument that Saturday’s 6-3 loss to the Hurricanes in the now-infamous Zamboni Driver game amounted to a “no-win situation.”
“If we won the game, it would be embarrassing as well, because you’re down 4-1 and then it’ll be a whole other set of controversy that would come up like ‘Oh geez, the Maple Leafs, it’s their own employee,’” Dubas said. “We were in a no-win situation in that game.”
That, of course, was a ridiculous contention. It wasn’t a no-win. It was a non-win. If the Leafs had scored eight goals on their eight shots on lovable David Ayres, it’s possible there might have been a few jokes cracked at the Leafs’ expense, sure. That Dubas expressed an ounce of concern with the potential blowback from that theoretical scenario — it’s the latest indication that he’s not only sensitive to criticism, he’s spending too much time anticipating it. He’s not just hyperaware of the current narrative. He’s now attempting to drive it.
You have to assume Brendan Shanahan, who lives a hermitlike existence as a rarely heard overseer, has already told him to stop. Then again, in the smarter-than-thou universe where there’s no differentiation between good fortune and misfortune, maybe it’s possible there’s a school of thought that insists there’s no difference between good publicity and the kind of the stuff Dubas has spent this week bringing on himself. All those years of Lou Lamoriello’s mentorship obviously rubbed off on the young grasshopper.
Or maybe Shanahan knows there’s no stopping him. This is Dubas trying to navigate the toughest challenge of his professional career. And maybe, just maybe, we’re seeing the outward signs that he’s in over his head, for better or worse. Only the Buddha knows.
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