Kronwalls hit on Kucherov MOD WARNING IN OP (Kronwall suspended for Game 7) - Part II

[GoldenBearHockey]

That's such a tired and flawed line of reasoning. It can be used for every single discussion on this board. "They have more experience so they must be right."

It also calls into question the very existence of this forum. Why discuss anything on hfboards? Obviously the NHL and its players have more extensive hockey backgrounds than anyone here.

Nevermind that refs also have more experience than anyone here, yet they miss calls all the time. Because they're more experienced I guess they're always correct.

The Oilers management has more experience than anyone here, so they must be making all the right decisions too. Do you know how many Cups Lowe has won?

Discussion sure, the problem is, it's not a discussion, you (by you, it's everyone) have a clear biased opinion, you think the Palat hit is suspendable, I am providing reasons why it's not, and some of you....are putting your fingers in your ear going na na na, can't hear you,

It's going in circles, at some point, you just have to accept that people with more knowledge of the game, made a decision,

Do they get it right all the time, no, I am not saying that, I am saying in this one, they absolutely got it right.

You can have the opinion that they didn't, that's fine, but it's biased as hell, and not being backed up with anything other than, but but but it should have been....

You want to dismiss Glendening's actions...well..you can't, they are absolutely a factor in why it wasn't suspendable, you want to say, but Kronwall was suspended, that's fine, but that was absolutely NOT A FACTOR in why Palat did not get a hearing,

I linked you to the NHL DoPS site, go over it, it will explain why some hits are called in for a hearing and some are not...

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

No I'm not. Where in the world did you get that from my post?



Adjust to Glendening's head being in the same spot? Glendening didn't make Palat leave his feet. Glendening didn't make Palat hit him in the head. There was no adjustment to be made as Palat had a straight shot to him and would have made a clean hit if not for leaving the feet.

You said after Glendening slowed down, in real time, that's at the point of contact pretty much..

 

[tarheelhockey]

This keeps getting said, but how does Palat hit the shoulder/body and not the head if Glendening doesn't stop? Glendening doesn't duck, and Palat's shoulder is above Glendenings head when he makes contact.

It's impossible to know for sure, but it looks to me like Glendening's head would have cleared Palat's line of attack if he had kept going. It's not where Palat lines him up vertically, but Glendening's progress along the X axis that makes the difference.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

You said after Glendening slowed down, in real time, that's at the point of contact pretty much..

And did the height of Glendening's head change when he stopped (which is different from him slowing down which was not at the point of contact)? Was Palat forced to jump because of what Glendening did?

You have continuously ignored the fact Palat left his feet and hit Glendening in the head. This is akin to the very same thing you accuse other of doing: sticking your fingers in your ears going "lalalalala".

It's impossible to know for sure, but it looks to me like Glendening's head would have cleared Palat's line of attack if he had kept going. It's not where Palat lines him up vertically, but Glendening's progress along the X axis that makes the difference.

And based on that Glendening gets clipped in the shoulder, maybe. If you are making a hit where you will either miss or mainly hit him in the head, then I would say there is a problem with the hit being made. His shoulder was high, and because of his trajectory and him leaving his feet he hit a player in the head. That is not on Glendening in the slightest.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

It's impossible to know for sure, but it looks to me like Glendening's head would have cleared Palat's line of attack if he had kept going. It's not where Palat lines him up vertically, but Glendening's progress along the X axis that makes the difference.

Pretty much this...which is why it's absolutely pivotal to recognize that Glendening stopped

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

And did the height of Glendening's head change when he stopped (which is different from him slowing down which was not at the point of contact)? Was Palat forced to jump because of what Glendening did?

You have continuously ignored the fact Palat left his feet and hit Glendening in the head. This is akin to the very same thing you accuse other of doing: sticking your fingers in your ears going "lalalalala".

No, tarheel hockey said it for me,

I thought it was assumed that you know that if Glendening doesn't stop, Palat hits him in the chest/far shoulder rather than the head...as the head clears the point of contact...

I apologize if you didn't realize that...I thought it was a given..

 

[BHD]

The cynic in me says the DoPS was motivated, at least in part, by criticism that there have been no suspensions for other questionable plays during these playoffs.

I'll be cheering for the Lightning, but the timing of this suspension is simply awful for the Wings.

That's because none of those plays rose to the level of what Kronwall did.

 

[sr edler]

cause they're things of beauty. wonderfully timed, clean hits that make the crowd go crazy.

They're not. They're often poorly executed and all over the place. Arms here and back and elbows and legs there.

This one is a thing of beauty though.

hopefully he gets some off against MTL.

Hopefully the Wings gets eliminated. Would be awesome only because of the sting on Kronwall.

 

[Ducks DVM]

This keeps getting said, but how does Palat hit the shoulder/body and not the head if Glendening doesn't stop? Glendening doesn't duck, and Palat's shoulder is above Glendenings head when he makes contact.

This is a basic physics question.

Palat is driving upwards. His shoulder will be higher the further he travels because it's on a line moving upwards. Where he expected to hit Glendening his shoulder was at shoulder height. Because he is driving upwards, two feet further along (or whatever the actual distance is) his shoulder has continued to go upwards, and is now at the level of the head.

I'm not getting into the intent aspects of this or whether it's different to be driving upwards through a hit vs jumping into a hit vs jumping before a hit, but Glendening stopping absolutely plays a role in where the hit landed on him.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

No, tarheel hockey said it for me,

I thought it was assumed that you know that if Glendening doesn't stop, Palat hits him in the chest/far shoulder rather than the head...as the head clears the point of contact...

I apologize if you didn't realize that...I thought it was a given..

Palat cannot possibly hit him in the chest considering he had the chest lined up on this hit and still hit Glendening's head anyway.

Here, I'll repeat the same phrase you have ignored again and again: Palat left his feet and hit Glendening in the head.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Palat cannot possibly hit him in the chest considering he had the chest lined up on this hit and still hit Glendening's head anyway.

Here, I'll repeat the same phrase you have ignored again and again: Palat left his feet and hit Glendening in the head.

See the post above....if you can't understand that...don't know where to go from there....so I will end it with, good luck tonight.

 

[Burke the Legend]

Kronwall hits defenseless players? His signature hit is along the boards on players trying to clear their zone. It's not from behind, it's not away from the play....if you're defenseless in that situation you probably lack hockey IQ and should consider going back to the beer league.

He only hits the guys who aren't fully looking, who are distracted by some other opponent or puck. Doesn't matter if they screwed up by putting them in that position, taking advantage of it and trying to kill the guy is predatory.

Magnifying Kronwall's predatory hitting is he always goes high, his defenders will point out to a freeze frame where his toe is still on the ice at point of contact before flying up, or he glances on the shoulder before clobbering the guy in the head, but the result is a big head knock. Finally the NHL steps in on this, enough good players have already been injured by this guy's attacks.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

This is a basic physics question.

Palat is driving upwards. His shoulder will be higher the further he travels because it's on a line moving upwards. Where he expected to hit Glendening his shoulder was at shoulder height. Because he is driving upwards, two feet further along (or whatever the actual distance is) his shoulder has continued to go upwards, and is now at the level of the head.

I'm not getting into the intent aspects of this or whether it's different to be driving upwards through a hit vs jumping into a hit vs jumping before a hit, but Glendening stopping absolutely plays a role in where the hit landed on him.

This is a huge grasp at straws.

Palat jumps after Glendening stops. He commits after Glendening stops. He positions himself in a perfect position to hit Glendening square in the chest after Glendening stops.

He had enough time not to jump and not to hit him in the head. Glendening did not slow down at the last minute to cause someone to jump and hit him in the head. Either way, Palat screwed up and left his feet before contact was made.

 

[Ducks DVM]

This is a huge grasp at straws.

Palat jumps after Glendening stops. He commits after Glendening stops. He positions himself in a perfect position to hit Glendening square in the chest after Glendening stops.

He had enough time not to jump and not to hit him in the head. Glendening did not slow down at the last minute to cause someone to jump and hit him in the head. Either way, Palat screwed up and left his feet before contact was made.

Agreed that he left his feet too early. Disagreed that at real speed that Palat had not made a determination as to where Glendening was going to be and timed the jump accordingly (and incorrectly). At real speed that's pretty much a last minute stop.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Agreed that he left his feet too early. Disagreed that at real speed that Palat had not made a determination as to where Glendening was going to be and timed the jump accordingly (and incorrectly). At real speed that's pretty much a last minute stop.

And that is fine as long as we let the players know that "jumping into" a hit can be punished for being mistimed and causing unnecessary head contact.

I am not asking for a Palat suspension, here. However due to the nature of the hit and the fact another hit with a mistimed "jump" had a look, I believe it should have warranted at least a fine.

 

[Crosbyfan]

They're both hits that don't belong in the game, are reckless at best, possibly intent to injure (especially Kronwall's), and should both have been suspensions. It would have been nice to at least see an explanation by the league for Palat's hit, and the rational behind letting him go Scott free.

 

[ElysiumAB]

He only hits the guys who aren't fully looking, who are distracted by some other opponent or puck. Doesn't matter if they screwed up by putting them in that position, taking advantage of it and trying to kill the guy is predatory.

So it's Kronwall's responsibility to make sure the opponent isn't distracted before hitting him? Maybe the player should have his head up and know who is on the ice.

Should he also only shoot when the goalie is not screened?

Give me a break.

 

[illpucks]

People are debating this?

Flying elbow to the head.

Not legal at all.

 

[DanZ]

He only hits the guys who aren't fully looking, who are distracted by some other opponent or puck. Doesn't matter if they screwed up by putting them in that position, taking advantage of it and trying to kill the guy is predatory.

Magnifying Kronwall's predatory hitting is he always goes high, his defenders will point out to a freeze frame where his toe is still on the ice at point of contact before flying up, or he glances on the shoulder before clobbering the guy in the head, but the result is a big head knock. Finally the NHL steps in on this, enough good players have already been injured by this guy's attacks.

Lol if the guy was fully aware that Kronwall was there than he would be able to avoid the hit. Almost all big hits are a result of a player putting himself in a bad position.

 

[Ducks DVM]

And that is fine as long as we let the players know that "jumping into" a hit can be punished for being mistimed and causing unnecessary head contact.

I am not asking for a Palat suspension, here. However due to the nature of the hit and the fact another hit with a mistimed "jump" had a look, I believe it should have warranted at least a fine.

I wouldnt argue, but he has the cover of the outcome being affected by the actions of the other player, and they usually only go after those when they're forced to by an injury. There's a plausible excuse for his hit. There isn't for Kromwall. There's a significant difference between the two hits - one was reckless, the other was predatory.

I think the DOPS is a farce, that's pretty well established.

 

[DanZ]

People are debating this?

Flying elbow to the head.

Not legal at all.

Elbow didn't hit the head.

 

[DanZ]

They're both hits that don't belong in the game, are reckless at best, possibly intent to injure (especially Kronwall's), and should both have been suspensions. It would have been nice to at least see an explanation by the league for Palat's hit, and the rational behind letting him go Scott free.

They wouldn't be able to explain it though, because Palat is guilty of the exact same things that Kronwall is.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Do they not have more extensive hockey backgrounds than....anyone here?

Just because you don't like or understand the decisions they make, doesn't mean they don't have more experience and have seen or done...more etc.

Listen.

I am close to finishing a PhD program. When I started, I looked at scientific articles in awe. I assumed they were all brilliant. If I didn't understand something I subconsciously made the assumption that it was my own failing, because clearly a peer-reviewed article published professionally must be flawless.

One of the most important things I learned on my path to PhD was that authority is FAR from flawless. I finally began to understand that some people, despite being officially qualified, were nonetheless idiots. Some articles, despite having a well-known company's name attached to them, were crap. Sometimes, not understanding an article is the fault of the writer, not the reader.

Sorry for the weird tangential anecdote but the point I'm trying to get at is this: It's easy and natural to appeal to authority when you don't understand their point of view, but if you dissect it you begin to learn that authority is sometimes flawed and sometimes downright stupid.

You should NOT blindly trust a source simply because it has the proper credentials.

 

[a pony]

Can we please break off the Palat hit into it's own thread? It has nothing to do with how dirty Kronwall is and how much he finally deserves a suspension.

 

[DanZ]

Can we please break off the Palat hit into it's own thread? It has nothing to do with how dirty Kronwall is and how much he finally deserves a suspension.

It's relevant, because they are both guilty of the same thing yet one was suspended while the other wasn't.