Player Discussion Koskinen Re-Signed PT2

[joestevens29]

Nicholson sure messed up by saying they as a management team decided on Koskinen.

 

[Ruudukkopupuset]

I think the whole affair of judging Koskinen like he didn't exist when playing beyond the NHL shows quite tribal way of thinking and is even racist given that Koskinen was the among the highest rated Eurasian goalie for years thanks to his play, working in an environment where modern goaltending coaching flourished first, getting the best education. Plenty of SKA stars have found themselves to be quite at home in the NHL which still at the end of the day is just an ice hockey league for professional players.

Didn't take long for Koskinen to eat Talbot, the NHLer, as had been prophecied. Now he is playing for a crisis club which has changed coaching and GM so far so it ain't exactly the stable environment from which in example Vezina-Rinne or most other Vezina-X's typically benefit from.

If I were are a fan of a team I would hope they would be capable of assessing a player even if he hadn't played in the magical NHL which has been horrid in example utilizing the great number of modern Eurasian coaching or goaltending coaching knowledge while bringing in former NHL friends at best.

 

[lakai17]

Nicholson sure messed up by saying they as a management team decided on Koskinen.

Then they should give Talbot the boot. Cap space is needed to make moves.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Then they should give Talbot the boot. Cap space is needed to make moves.

He's not signed after this year. What cap space are they going to save?

 

[Drivesaitl]

I can name many goalies who are flawed and still had/have a decent career at NHL. The reason he wasn't in NHL for years is because he waited for the right chance. Why come to NA to play AHL when you can play KHL for good dollars?


Anyways, some of you might want to check the Oilers games this season to see that there is a trend where the goalie has to stand on his head with this team in order to get a W. Talbot is doing even worse than Koski but I see no *****ing about him because it seems that having good technique and mechanics is so so important. Fact is that both goalies are suffering because of teamplay / quality of D.


As I've said before it's fairly obvious that so many of you goalie critics have never actually played goalie, Domi wrap-around goal is entirely on D letting Domi be free on the corner and the Larsson just standing there watching him wrap-around like that. Koski is forced to go out of his net to stop the initial redirection from Domi who is FREE because of bad defensive play. Of course he struggles to dive on the otherside of the goal when all his momentum is the other way.

3rd goal is Koskis fault for initially failing to hang up the puck at the side of the net, but after that where the goal shot comes from it's the D's fault AGAIN leaving a man open at the corner of the net. Koski is busy tracking the puck behind the net and as a goalie you just have to trust your D-men to actually keep their men to buy you time to position yourself properly if the puck quickly gets moved to the other side of the net.


It's also strange that mr Drivesaitl keeps ignoring my post now that I gave him substance in my previous one after he so longingly asked for it, still keeping the narrative about Koski's bad career stats after 30 games when it is both goalies suffering of the same disease.

More the case I've wondered what your intent is here, if you are another one topic, one player poster, and you are a finnish fan supporting Koski (I get it) but while having the audacity to suggest that its others that have all the bias. I think its incredibly myopic for you to initiate that tact here.

Of course I have no affiliation with, or any particular reason to like Talbot. Its impossible to debate in good faith with someone who merely states that I'm a fanboy of a player.

Talbot has impeccable form, fundamentals, edges, Pay attention to one thing, that Talbot, moving across can stop wherever he likes after moving across. Thus always keeping himself in position in the cage. Now focus on how much Koski's relatively clumsy form has him moving out of position after coming across to make a save. Many of Koski's predicaments are caused by how much trouble he has maintaining square to the puck at all times. He doesn't survive first saves well, and he gives up bad rebounds, a lethal combination at this level.

But I'll see in your response whether you want to be an actual poster here or somebody out fishing. I'll respond accordingly.

ps It doesn't occur to me that someone starting posts with "holy hot takes'' is voicing posts consistent with what you are telling us about yourself. A lot of your other comments about Koski having the "right instinct'' seem similarly odd. If you want to be more convincing maybe express yourself better, and using applicable terminology. Conversely starting off exchanges with ad hominem attack isn't very compelling.

 

[Little Fury]

Hasek says he doesn't care. The guy only needs to stop the puck. Granted he's not doing it right now, but to Jonu's implicit point, nobody could with our team playing such shoddy defense presently.

Hasek was actually athletic. Koskinen moves like a dump truck with three flat tires.

 

[Little Fury]

I think the whole affair of judging Koskinen like he didn't exist when playing beyond the NHL shows quite tribal way of thinking and is even racist given that Koskinen was the among the highest rated Eurasian goalie for years thanks to his play, working in an environment where modern goaltending coaching flourished first, getting the best education.

 

[Beerfish]

Hasek was actually athletic. Koskinen moves like a dump truck with three flat tires.

80% of the goalies in this league are the same these days, Be big, block net go down as soon as the other team crosses the blue line. goaltending is just an awful spectacle in this league and all the goalie coaches that preach this should be kicked in the ass.

 

[Drivesaitl]

80% of the goalies in this league are the same these days, Be big, block net go down as soon as the other team crosses the blue line. goaltending is just an awful spectacle in this league and all the goalie coaches that preach this should be kicked in the ass.

I'm older, and this is from long ago but in a previous time goalies were told "not to make the first move" and that this would allow the shooter knowledge of where to shoot. On anything but closer in chances it seems odd to go down prematurely. Koski appears to also have difficulty when he is down moving to changing angles.

Goaltending is a strange position and it seems somewhat like its subject to temporal superstition. Due to the nature of the position, and the amount of times you can get good luck off posts or making stops you don't see etc, that recommendations can be given for the position that are not substantiated 100%.

I would wonder what a goalie computer simulation would move like, track like, what form it would adopt in net if a computer program was well setup to analyze shot location, where shots come from and all algorithms related to shot, multiples etc. If a Deep Blue type program was setup for goaltending (and it would have to have detailed excellent input from several knowledgeable advisors to be of any use) what goalie form would look like. What would a computers response to hockey goaltending be?

The difficulty with such a program though is it could be very subject to selective input, and what goaltender bias is already inputted to the program. How it was derived, and what the results indicate would have to be carefully considered.

Being that elemental VR programs like this already exist how much more would it take programming wise to have computer goaltending tutelage be a much more tenable tool?

 

[bucks_oil]

Except Hasek actually stopped pucks. Koskinen stopped pucks for 10 games. Now he's allowing 3 a game

My point is that some random internet goalie critic claiming "mechanics" as the reason his poor performance will continue is not evidence one way or the other.

 

[guymez]

I think the whole affair of judging Koskinen like he didn't exist when playing beyond the NHL shows quite tribal way of thinking and is even racist given that Koskinen was the among the highest rated Eurasian goalie for years thanks to his play, working in an environment where modern goaltending coaching flourished first, getting the best education. Plenty of SKA stars have found themselves to be quite at home in the NHL which still at the end of the day is just an ice hockey league for professional players.

Didn't take long for Koskinen to eat Talbot, the NHLer, as had been prophecied. Now he is playing for a crisis club which has changed coaching and GM so far so it ain't exactly the stable environment from which in example Vezina-Rinne or most other Vezina-X's typically benefit from.

If I were are a fan of a team I would hope they would be capable of assessing a player even if he hadn't played in the magical NHL which has been horrid in example utilizing the great number of modern Eurasian coaching or goaltending coaching knowledge while bringing in former NHL friends at best.

Hard to take anything in this post seriously when you post abject nonsense like the bolded. :

Is this kind of filtering a product of the Millennial generation in general? Truly sad if it is.

 

[Ruudukkopupuset]

Hard to take anything in this post seriously when you post abject nonsense like the bolded. :

Is this kind of filtering a product of the Millennial generation in general? Truly sad if it is.

All the frequent comments of how Koskinen has no pedigree in ice goaltending I believe have made the stereotypical images of the primitive hockey in coniferous forests more alive in other side of the pond.

Just because Koskinen hadn't played in the NHL more than 30 games this season at that point made it seem like you could have not noticed in example the absolute talent of Juuse Saros or Tim Thomas who performed as stars in Eurasian ice hockey long before they came over. The whole notion that someone would need to have seen for example a whole season to make the decision is bizarre given that on this earth there are not many goaltenders with better or more stable resumes for the last few years.

And all because he didn't always play in a league where there aren't even always open positions for his role and salary of number one goaltender... In a league in which one of the best goaltending coaches in the world, Jussi Parkkila, now of Colorado Avalanche, was a question mark... because he didn't come from there or wasn't doing some Northern American tricks but actually training some of the best goaltenders in the world in Rask and Bobrovski.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I think the whole affair of judging Koskinen like he didn't exist when playing beyond the NHL shows quite tribal way of thinking and is even racist given that Koskinen was the among the highest rated Eurasian goalie for years thanks to his play, working in an environment where modern goaltending coaching flourished first, getting the best education. Plenty of SKA stars have found themselves to be quite at home in the NHL which still at the end of the day is just an ice hockey league for professional players.

Didn't take long for Koskinen to eat Talbot, the NHLer, as had been prophecied. Now he is playing for a crisis club which has changed coaching and GM so far so it ain't exactly the stable environment from which in example Vezina-Rinne or most other Vezina-X's typically benefit from.

If I were are a fan of a team I would hope they would be capable of assessing a player even if he hadn't played in the magical NHL which has been horrid in example utilizing the great number of modern Eurasian coaching or goaltending coaching knowledge while bringing in former NHL friends at best.

If I'm bored I'll look at your other 4 posts to see if they are as deplorable as this one.

My lord, what a way to start out on a messageboard.

 

[Drivesaitl]

All the frequent comments of how Koskinen has no pedigree in ice goaltending I believe have made the stereotypical images of the primitive hockey in coniferous forests more alive in other side of the pond.

Just because Koskinen hadn't played in the NHL more than 30 games this season at that point made it seem like you could have not noticed in example the absolute talent of Juuse Saros or Tim Thomas who performed as stars in Eurasian ice hockey long before they came over. The whole notion that someone would need to have seen for example a whole season to make the decision is bizarre given that on this earth there are not many goaltenders with better or more stable resumes for the last few years.

And all because he didn't always play in a league where there aren't even always open positions for his role and salary of number one goaltender... In a league in which one of the best goaltending coaches in the world, Jussi Parkkila, now of Colorado Avalanche, was a question mark... because he didn't come from there or wasn't doing some Northern American tricks but actually training some of the best goaltenders in the world in Rask and Bobrovski.

Gee, I wonder what you are.

Signs up for the board TODAY, refers to opinions here on a goalie as "Racist" and then posts the bolded diatribe. haha

 

[guymez]

Hasek was actually athletic. Koskinen moves like a dump truck with three flat tires.

Not that I completely agree with the analogy but I did get a hardy chuckle over your description.

 

[Ruudukkopupuset]

Attitudes such as those continue to keep some of the best coaches and goaltending coaches in the world out of working opportunities in your continent. Despite that Eurasians already make what 1/3 of the league in players since the outbreak? Because you choose to turn blind and not even seek revelations beyond.

 

[jonu]

More the case I've wondered what your intent is here, if you are another one topic, one player poster, and you are a finnish fan supporting Koski (I get it) but while having the audacity to suggest that its others that have all the bias. I think its incredibly myopic for you to initiate that tact here.

Of course I have no affiliation with, or any particular reason to like Talbot. Its impossible to debate in good faith with someone who merely states that I'm a fanboy of a player.

Talbot has impeccable form, fundamentals, edges, Pay attention to one thing, that Talbot, moving across can stop wherever he likes after moving across. Thus always keeping himself in position in the cage. Now focus on how much Koski's relatively clumsy form has him moving out of position after coming across to make a save. Many of Koski's predicaments are caused by how much trouble he has maintaining square to the puck at all times. He doesn't survive first saves well, and he gives up bad rebounds, a lethal combination at this level.

But I'll see in your response whether you want to be an actual poster here or somebody out fishing. I'll respond accordingly.

ps It doesn't occur to me that someone starting posts with "holy hot takes'' is voicing posts consistent with what you are telling us about yourself. A lot of your other comments about Koski having the "right instinct'' seem similarly odd. If you want to be more convincing maybe express yourself better, and using applicable terminology. Conversely starting off exchanges with ad hominem attack isn't very compelling.

Yes, you might have no affiliation with Talbot but your post history does not lie, however much you would like it to. I never at any point called you a fanboy of a player exactly, I just said that you seem biased towards the other one.


I've seen Talbot with his fundamentals do the same things that Koski with his "clumsy form" aka moving out of position after coming across to make a save, in fact this is quite common even on the NHL level if you pay attention to other games too. It's also not a surprise that as a smaller goalie Talbot is more agile in moving for the follow up on his mistake, but Koski can do the follow up with his size, reach and acrobacy like he has done many times this season.

The fact is that you are comparing apples to oranges, Talbot is style-wise more comparable to Rask and Koskinen with his awkward movement has personally always reminded me of Luongo.

I don't really see Koski having problems being square to the shots, he is strong at directing pucks from right side of his body to the corners and while his catching glove-work is shaky at times he has proven that he can use it for some really big key saves time and time again.

Taking the recent Flyers game as an example, Talbot sure didn't look to have much better edgework on butterfly slides than Koskinen does, and he didn't really wow me with his puck tracking, rebound control and decision making that game either. While Koskinen might have some work to do on his technical skills, he is still a capable NHL goaltender who can work out those technical nuances with the right coaching, just like he already did after a horrendous preseason with the team.

You can keep on digging at Koskinen to blame him on his numbers but it's clear as day that this team right now rarely wins unless one of the Oilers goalies is able to stand on their head and keep them in the game.


ps
So you're saying that since english is my third language I'm not using enough fancy words to be taken seriously, while you yourself try to talk around my points with fancy words?

My holy hot takes comment was related to the fact that some people are severely on the "what have you done to me lately" boat.

You are also trying to twist my words a lot, I never said that "Koski has the right instinct" I just said that there is more to goalie play than perfect fundamentals and technique in general. If YOU want to be more convincing on this forum, maybe you should stop twisting others comments to make them fit your narrative and focus more on expressing your "objectivity" better.

I never started off the exchange with personal attacks, so you're twisting the truth again. Conversely, ending off exchanges with ad hominem attacks aren't compelling either so there's that.

I've tried my best being civil and point out that both goalies right now are suffering more from team play than their personal goaltender skills.

 

[Drivesaitl]

@jonu Your first two replies to me were calling out my posts out of the blue. I don't know you, never had an exchange with you ever before. If that is your ENTRY points to civility than you can have that. I'm not here for those looking to purposely flame and one topic post on this board, about one player.

You're not even an Oilers fan and this is an Oilers board. You're apparently a Finnish Koskinen fan, calling me biased. heh, at least you're not saying racist like the other poster.

ps you specifically stated in a post that Koskinen had the "instinct" to be a goalie, whatever that means.

You also state, on very limited point of reference, that Talbot doesn't wow you. The difference being is that Talbot is a "known" as an NHL goalie and as recently as 1.5yrs ago was in the Vezina conversation in the best league on the planet. Theres plenty of sample size of Talbot being a good to very good goalie at this level. You're entering into the discussion here apparently with little awareness of that. As if you are watching him for the first time.

In effect this would be like someone going into a KHL thread or a Finnish thread and surmising about a goalie there after seeing a couple games.

 

[jonu]

@jonu Your first two replies to me were calling out my posts out of the blue. I don't know you, never had an exchange with you ever before. If that is your ENTRY points to civility than you can have that. I'm not here for those looking to purposely flame and one topic post on this board, about one player.

You're not even an Oilers fan and this is an Oilers board. You're apparently a Finnish Koskinen fan, calling me biased. heh, at least you're not saying racist like the other poster.

ps you specifically stated in a post that Koskinen had the "instinct" to be a goalie, whatever that means.

You also state, on very limited point of reference, that Talbot doesn't wow you. The difference being is that Talbot is a "known" as an NHL goalie and as recently as 1.5yrs ago was in the Vezina conversation in the best league on the planet. Theres plenty of sample size of Talbot being a good to very good goalie at this level. You're entering into the discussion here apparently with little awareness of that. As if you are watching him for the first time.

In effect this would be like someone going into a KHL thread or a Finnish thread and surmising about a goalie there after seeing a couple games.

I've been following Oilers ever since JP played his first game, and cheer for Oilers unless its against Florida or Boston, making me also an Oilers fan. I am not exactly a Koskinen fan, but to me it seems he gets a lot of unwarranted hate so I'm trying to argue in his favor against unwarranted criticism. If that makes me blatantly biased then so be it, but of us two I am also the one of us defending both goalies play and pointing out that the bigger problem for Oilers is team-play and quality of defense.

Also never, at any point have I specifically stated that Koskinen had the "instinct" to be a goalie (Nor did I say that Talbot didn't have it). Specifically I said, from word to word "I know a lot of goalies who had good fundamentals and technique but lacked the instincts". If you didn't know there's defensive and offensive instincts for skaters, there's also instincts for goalies. Best examples of an instinctual goalie in todays NHL are probably Fleury and Quick, even though they have good fundamentals and base technique they vary their playstyle a lot with instinctual, acrobatic moves that can sometimes be a hit or miss. They differ quite a lot from the basic template of a modern goaltender.

My point was to show you that even I can start nitpicking Talbots game as you do on Koskinen, because against Flyers even though he had 40 something saves he still cost Oilers the game, maybe even more so than Koskinen did against Montreal. That still doesn't make him an overall "bad" goalie in my eyes as you make it seem like.

You would also do good to understand that even Antti Niemi finished 3rd in Vezina voting and 2 years after that he was considered damaged goods and hot garbage after being a similar situation to Talbot in Dallas.

You're also completely ignoring the fact that I have pointed out in at least 2 replies now that I have all the trust that BOTH of Oilers goalies are good to very good goalies at this level, and that the numbers as they are right now are NOT an indication of their play overall. Yet YOU keep entering into the discussion with little awareness of that time and time again.

Also, as you said, "It's a message board, we all make comments" mine was just made in reply to you because after 30 career games in NHL you are ready to call someone off based on a stat that right now depends a lot more on the team's play and form more than the goalies.


ps. To be honest, I nearly called you out on "linquistic discrimination" because what you implied was quite rude.

 

[elmeroil]

Now that Klef is back hopefully both goalies can breath a little better out there. Having both guys playing well is the only way they have a shot at that wc spot. Hope it starts tonight with Talbot.

 

[GMofOilers]

Talbots fundamentals were on point last night.

Gotta trade him fast, he’s been a cancer in the room going on 2 years now.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Talbots fundamentals were on point last night.

Gotta trade him fast, he’s been a cancer in the room going on 2 years now.

Only you would think this.

Tidy sv% for Koskinen last night. First shot first goal against!

 

[Hemsky4pm2]

Koskinen's contract can easily look like Scott Darling's contract in a hurry. Oilers.

 

[pabst blue ribbon]

Still preplexed at how this came about, there wasn't any hurry to do this deal

 

[CycloneSweep]

Only you would think this.

Tidy sv% for Koskinen last night. First shot first goal against!

Dude, game was over once Koskinen was brought in. The defense didn't make a single effort after Koskinen was brought in. If you are going to shit on a goalie, do it on a night they start and the defense is in the building