KHL Expansion Part VIII

[vorky]

The deal with SAP is a clear signal. The signal for potential newcomers that the league is the business-oriented enterprise.

Regarding the expansion to Germany, we can look at big venues to see where the league may expand to. It is very easy - Berlin, Munich (new SAP Arena), Hamburg, Cologne, Mannheim.

The final aim may be a 10-12 division within the league, I mean independent division. That is de facto new league run by the KHL. If I fantasise, it could be "hockey UEFA" (for Jussi, national federations would have no say). I underline the final goal, which can be realized within a decade, two or even more. You never know.

 

[Jussi]

The deal with SAP is a clear signal. The signal for potential newcomers that the league is the business-oriented enterprise.

SAP has deals with NHL and NBA. Team coming in those leagues as well? KHL as a league might be business oriented but clubs aren't. The more losses Jokerit pile up, the less interest there is in the league for existing European clubs to join.

 

[Albatros]

SAP has deals with NHL and NBA. Team coming in those leagues as well?

Sharks.

 

[Jussi]

Sharks.

In June 2013, German software company SAP (co-founded by Sharks managing partner Hasso Plattner, who is also SAP's chairman of the board) purchased the naming rights to the facility in a five-year deal worth US$3.35 million per year. The arena was renamed "SAP Center at San Jose" upon approval by the San Jose City Council.

Old news.

 

[remben]

I will jump in regarding the Monaco rumors, as an AS Monaco fan for around 20 years, I would say that it is ridiculous, firstly there is no place to build an arena, when Monaco expand it is on the sea, there are plans of expansion but never heard they want to build an hockey arena, there are even no plan regarding the football stadium. I will also add to highlight the no space situation, that the basketball team play in the Arena Gaston Medecin who is part of football stadium Louis II. In my opinion the rumors are just based on the fact that the owner of AS Monaco is Russian, and the owner of the basketball team is Ukrainian (former owner of BC Donetsk). Regarding KHL in France in general, there are no teams who could be in the KHL due to arena size, the only solutions would be to have a team from Paris playing in Accor Hotel Arena, Accor group (partly owned by people from Qatar Emirates) will soon be sponsor of Paris Saint Germain, and they have already invested in several clubs in Paris, those guys have money and maybe it could be part of their soft power strategy, another option would be Lyon, there are plans to build an arena near Groupama Stadium around 10 000 maybe 12000 seats, this arena would be built by Olympique Lyonnais and ASVEL (it is one of the wishes of the owner Tony Parker as the club will soon play the Euroleague) and could host hockey games, currently the team Lions of Lyon play in Magnus League, those two cities have a good russian communities, the city of Nice as well, even if they have a hockey team I don't see this city as a candidate for a KHL team. Finally, regarding Germany I don't see Mannheim as an option even with the connection to SAP, I think the options are Munich with SAP arena, Berlin, or eventually Hamburg as there is no DEL team currently in the city, Cologne or Dusseldorf could be also options due to many Russians living in the North Rhine Westphalia land.

 

[razor ray]

I do not follow the KHL much or know very much about it but I'm curious as to why a Europe super league is not started? Teams in Paris, Berlin, Munich, London, Warsaw, Moscow, St. Petersberg, Bern, etc. like the NHL in the USA and Canada? I would think the TV and attendance would be solid.

Perhaps their is too many dynamics to this but it would seem to work. Every country could still have their own league and then 1 or 2 KHL teams.

 

[Jussi]

I do not follow the KHL much or know very much about it but I'm curious as to why a Europe super league is not started? Teams in Paris, Berlin, Munich, London, Warsaw, Moscow, St. Petersberg, Bern, etc. like the NHL in the USA and Canada? I would think the TV and attendance would be solid.

Perhaps their is too many dynamics to this but it would seem to work. Every country could still have their own league and then 1 or 2 KHL teams.

Nope. Hockey is a small sport in Europe, far behind football, basketball, even handball and biathlon when it comes to tv and public interest. Sure, attendances are fine in many leagues but they thrive on local rivalries, and that's where the tv money comes from. A UCL type CHL tournament, which is what we have now, is the peak. The people with money in Europe want a chance of profit, hence why there isn't interest in such project.

 

[Jussi]

I will jump in regarding the Monaco rumors, as an AS Monaco fan for around 20 years, I would say that it is ridiculous, firstly there is no place to build an arena, when Monaco expand it is on the sea, there are plans of expansion but never heard they want to build an hockey arena, there are even no plan regarding the football stadium. I will also add to highlight the no space situation, that the basketball team play in the Arena Gaston Medecin who is part of football stadium Louis II. In my opinion the rumors are just based on the fact that the owner of AS Monaco is Russian, and the owner of the basketball team is Ukrainian (former owner of BC Donetsk). Regarding KHL in France in general, there are no teams who could be in the KHL due to arena size, the only solutions would be to have a team from Paris playing in Accor Hotel Arena, Accor group (partly owned by people from Qatar Emirates) will soon be sponsor of Paris Saint Germain, and they have already invested in several clubs in Paris, those guys have money and maybe it could be part of their soft power strategy, another option would be Lyon, there are plans to build an arena near Groupama Stadium around 10 000 maybe 12000 seats, this arena would be built by Olympique Lyonnais and ASVEL (it is one of the wishes of the owner Tony Parker as the club will soon play the Euroleague) and could host hockey games, currently the team Lions of Lyon play in Magnus League, those two cities have a good russian communities, the city of Nice as well, even if they have a hockey team I don't see this city as a candidate for a KHL team. Finally, regarding Germany I don't see Mannheim as an option even with the connection to SAP, I think the options are Munich with SAP arena, Berlin, or eventually Hamburg as there is no DEL team currently in the city, Cologne or Dusseldorf could be also options due to many Russians living in the North Rhine Westphalia land.

Off topic: But of course...

 

[ForumNamePending]

I do not follow the KHL much or know very much about it but I'm curious as to why a Europe super league is not started? Teams in Paris, Berlin, Munich, London, Warsaw, Moscow, St. Petersberg, Bern, etc. like the NHL in the USA and Canada? I would think the TV and attendance would be solid.

Perhaps their is too many dynamics to this but it would seem to work. Every country could still have their own league and then 1 or 2 KHL teams.

Because for existing, well supported, clubs in places like Berlin (where the sport is niche to begin with) and Bern, the KHL doesn't offer them a better situation than what they already have. A club leaving the Swiss (or Czech, or Finnish, or Swedish, etc) league to join the KHL would most likely be leaving a viable, self-sustaining situation for something that is anything but.

Places like Paris and London aren't going to start caring about hockey because someone has established a new hockey team in town. French and British broadcasters aren't going to start spending tens/hundreds of millions of dollars/euros/whatever for media rights to the KHL because Paris and London have teams in the league.

Basically, establishing a "Super League" that can even sorta compete with the NHL means finding a bunch of people willing to spend an indefinite amount of money (billions?) over an indefinite period of time (forever?) propping the thing up.

Nope. Hockey is a small sport in Europe, far behind football, basketball, even handball and biathlon when it comes to tv and public interest. Sure, attendances are fine in many leagues but they thrive on local rivalries, and that's where the tv money comes from. A UCL type CHL tournament, which is what we have now, is the peak. The people with money in Europe want a chance of profit, hence why there isn't interest in such project.

I know I touched on this recently in another thread (or maybe it was this one), but based on available info European club basketball doesn't really seem to be any bigger than European club hockey... It's just that the NHL is so wealthy. I mean Euro basketball can't compete financially with the NBA either, despite the fact the powers that be have basically formed a European "Super League" in that sport.

 

[remben]

Off topic: But of course...

It is not exactly off topic, knowing that they bought Paris handball to make it PSG handball, so it could be that the Qatar owning PSG could be interesting to invest into an ice hockey team with their connection with Accor who has the naming right of Accor hotel arena in Paris. It is of course speculation

 

[Jussi]

I know I touched on this recently in another thread (or maybe it was this one), but based on available info European club basketball doesn't really seem to be any bigger than European club hockey... It's just that the NHL is so wealthy. I mean Euro basketball can't compete financially with the NBA either, despite the fact the powers that be have basically formed a European "Super League" in that sport.

The sport is huge in southern and south-eastern Europe. There so much money behind certain multi-sport clubs and the two most favorite sports, football and basketball, that there's zero chance of hockey competing for the euros in those countries. Clubs like Bayern München, Barcelona, several Greek clubs etc. Euroleague is far bigger and lucrative than it's predecessor the European Cup. I mean, some Euroleague teams are now in the NBA 2K series as well.

 

[ForumNamePending]

What exactly is the threshold between big and small? What makes European club basketball big and European club hockey small? Is club basketball big in places like Italy and Germany? Is club hockey small in places like Switzerland and Germany? Is the Adriatic league in basketball big, but the EBEL in hockey small?

As far as the multi-sport clubs go...You think Bayern Munich's or Barcelona's wealth and popularity has anything to do with the Basketball side of things? Both teams average ~5000/game and play in leagues with small media rights deals. If the basketball teams do have a lot of money to spend it's because they are being heavily subsidized by the soccer section. I mean if the folks running Barcelona decide that they rather spend the money they are giving to the basketball team on upgrading the soccer team's goalkeeping or something...

 

[Jussi]

What exactly is the threshold between big and small? What makes European club basketball big and European club hockey small? Is club basketball big in places like Italy and Germany? Is club hockey small in places like Switzerland and Germany? Is the Adriatic league in basketball big, but the EBEL in hockey small?

As far as the multi-sport clubs go...You think Bayern Munich's or Barcelona's wealth and popularity has anything to do with the Basketball side of things? Both teams average ~5000/game and play in leagues with small media rights deals. If the basketball teams do have a lot of money to spend it's because they are being heavily subsidized by the soccer section. I mean if the folks running Barcelona decide that they rather spend the money they are giving to the basketball team on upgrading the soccer team's goalkeeping or something...

Yes and yes. No and no.

Expenses are much smaller in basketball dues to roster sizes and smaller arenas.

10 Sports Barcelona Competes In That Aren't Soccer

The departments are separate from each other. They operate under the same banner but there's no funds moving from one to the other. There's similar clubs in the Nordic countries as well, e.g. in Helsinki HIFK have the hockey team but also football, floorball and bandy teams.

Bayern club structure: FC Bayern Munich - Wikipedia

 

[ForumNamePending]

Yes and yes. No and no.

Expenses are much smaller in basketball dues to roster sizes and smaller arenas.

OK, but saying expenses in basketball are much smaller than expenses in hockey is an entirely different argument than saying basketball is big and hockey is small. Besides, saying that basketball clubs play in smaller arenas doesn't exactly do a great job in supporting the argument that club basketball is far bigger than club hockey.

The departments are separate from each other. They operate under the same banner but there's no funds moving from one to the other.

Fair enough, but if there's really no tangible benefit to the basketball departments, why bring it up as some significant advantage to begin with?

 

[Jussi]

OK, but saying expenses in basketball are much smaller than expenses in hockey is an entirely different argument than saying basketball is big and hockey is small. Besides, saying that basketball clubs play in smaller arenas doesn't exactly do a great job in supporting the argument that club basketball is far bigger than club hockey.



Fair enough, but if there's really no tangible benefit to the basketball departments, why bring it up as some significant advantage to begin with?

I forgot to bold the other sentence.

The smaller expenses is just one example of the advantages basketball has over hockey in Europe. You don't for example require an ultramodern multipurpose arena with a hockey rink, just an indoor sports arena. It's basically the number two sport after football in many European countries and in several of those countries, hockey is more or less a non-entity.

Multi-sport clubs often have the same fans following the football team and basketball team. Fan culture is similar. I's sure you've seen videos of Greek basketball fans since they've been linked to the main board threads several times.

This is two years old but anyway:

EuroLeague clubs revenues more than doubled this season | Eurohoops

The best tv contract in European hockey is currently in Sweden which pays just under 4,5 - 5 million euros per club. Finnish league one pays around 1 million. The Swiss one is also good IIRC, but the rest in Europe not even close to what just the Euroleague pays.

List of EuroLeague broadcasters - Wikipedia

Hockey leagues in Europe can't even dream of such coverage, not that they actually even dream of for their local leagues.

This was the coverage for the CHL final:

CHL Games on TV

 

[ForumNamePending]

The smaller expenses is just one example of the advantages basketball has over hockey in Europe. You don't for example require an ultramodern multipurpose arena with a hockey rink, just an indoor sports arena.

Sure, but once again, playing in some tiny hall doesn't exactly scream "big time" popularity. You really don't need a "ultramodern" arena for hockey either. If more hockey teams play in facilities considered ultramodern perhaps it hints at a difference in the finances between the two.

It's basically the number two sport after football in many European countries and in several of those countries, hockey is more or less a non-entity.

A very distant second, but a fair point. Basketball has at least a solid niche in large countries like Spain (where hockey barely exists at all) and France (where hockey is pretty fringe). I also imagine basketball in most European countries has something that at least resembles a professional league. Hockey?... not so much. With that said, I don't think the fact Bulgaria or Portugal kinda-sorta have professional basketball leagues (I assume they do anyway) really makes a big difference in the grand scheme of things.

Multi-sport clubs often have the same fans following the football team and basketball team.

I'm sure some do, and others, like Bayern Munich or Barcelona... Apparently not so much.

This is two years old but anyway:

EuroLeague clubs revenues more than doubled this season | Eurohoops

Did you even read the article? Along with it basically saying at this point the project is a money loser for most clubs, it contradicts what you said earlier in the thread.

In most cases there’s still a long way for most clubs just to break even without their management having to put money from their own pockets, or from revenues provided from the football section.

The best tv contract in European hockey is currently in Sweden which pays just under 4,5 - 5 million euros per club. Finnish league one pays around 1 million. The Swiss one is also IIRC, but the rest in Europe not even close to what just the Euroleague pays.

The Finnish league deal is worth 20 million/year.
The Swiss league deal is worth 1.792 CHF/team/year.
I agree it's unlikely that any other hockey league comes close to those deals, but as far as I can tell neither does any other basketball league.

List of EuroLeague broadcasters - Wikipedia

Hockey leagues in Europe can't even dream of such coverage, not that they actually even dream of for their local leagues.

This was the coverage for the CHL final:

CHL Games on TV

And even with all that coverage the Euroleague's current broadcast deals bring in less than the SHL's.

It doesn't appear that the CHL is lacking in international coverage (per the wikipedia page), but in the current 10,000 channel universe we live in tons of "exotic" stuff gets carried all over the place.

Like I've been saying, generally speaking, based on available info, I don't see how one thing can be considered "big" and the other "small".

 

[Jussi]

Did you even read the article? Along with it basically saying at this point the project is a money loser for most clubs, it contradicts what you said earlier in the thread.

The Finnish league deal is worth 20 million/year.
The Swiss league deal is worth 1.792 CHF/team/year.
I agree it's unlikely that any other hockey league comes close to those deals, but as far as I can tell neither does any other basketball league.

And even with all that coverage the Euroleague's current broadcast deals bring in less than the SHL's.

It doesn't appear that the CHL is lacking in international coverage (per the wikipedia page), but in the current 10,000 channel universe we live in tons of "exotic" stuff gets carried all over the place.

Like I've been saying, generally speaking, based on available info, I don't see how one thing can be considered "big" and the other "small".

My point was that the top teams in the countries where basketball is big, make a lot of money from Euroleague. That doesn't include what the domestic tv contracts bring. I really don't care enough about the subject to go searching for those. I would imagine the Greeks would be high on the list though.

Well let's put it this way, hockey is big in the "wrong" countries where as basketball is big in the "right" countries. Read: population and economy.

 

[Toro2017]

Well let's put it this way, hockey is big in the "wrong" countries where as basketball is big in the "right" countries. Read: population and economy.

I would say that from hockey point of view, Germany would be the no.1 "right" country in Europe. Second would propably be Switzerland. Hockey is big on both countries. If those countries or even Germany would start to build Euroleague for hockey, it might succeed. Of course, it would need local rivalries, but then how about a league, where there would be (for example) four division with seven teams. One for Germany, one for Switzerland, one for Sweden and one for Finland. If those divisions would be open to local leagues (relegations and promotions), then it might work even better for the "local rivalries" point of view.

So start with that and then expand with baby steps. If Dinamo Riga is ever kicked out of KHL, it could join the Finnish division. Swedish division could expand to Copenhagen and Oslo. German division could take (for example) two teams from Prague and Swiss division could take one team from France and another from Bolzano, Milan or Wien.

 

[vorky]

I would say that from hockey point of view, Germany would be the no.1 "right" country in Europe. Second would propably be Switzerland. Hockey is big on both countries. If those countries or even Germany would start to build Euroleague for hockey, it might succeed. Of course, it would need local rivalries, but then how about a league, where there would be (for example) four division with seven teams. One for Germany, one for Switzerland, one for Sweden and one for Finland. If those divisions would be open to local leagues (relegations and promotions), then it might work even better for the "local rivalries" point of view.

So start with that and then expand with baby steps. If Dinamo Riga is ever kicked out of KHL, it could join the Finnish division. Swedish division could expand to Copenhagen and Oslo. German division could take (for example) two teams from Prague and Swiss division could take one team from France and another from Bolzano, Milan or Wien.

unrealistic to do for Germans, Swiss or Swedes on their own. They do not have a desire, money nor diplomacy for doing this.

But yeah, I agree that this scenario might be an end-game for the KHL.

I do not understand why you exclude Russians/KHL from that league you described. I hope you understand that nothing serious without Russians/KHL can be done in European hockey.

 

[Toro2017]

I do not understand why you exclude Russians/KHL from that league you described. I hope you understand that nothing serious without Russians/KHL can be done in European hockey.

Well that was just an answer to the question if EuroHockeyLeague is at all possible in Europe. I think that if any attempt is made, then Germany should be the motor for it. Without them, I don't see it could be done.

In Finnish hockeyforums many users thinks that Sweden and Switzerland would not be interested in this kind of system, so my dream is that some day there would be four "big" league in Europe. SHL with some extra teams from Denmark and Norway. National league (Swiss) with some extra teams from France and Italy. EuroHockeyLeague with four division (from Germany, "Czechoslovakia", "EBEL" and Finland) and KHL. Then those four league could build somekind of light version of CHL with (for example) two teams from each of those four leagues (SHL, National league, EHL and KHL).

 

[vorky]

Well that was just an answer to the question if EuroHockeyLeague is at all possible in Europe. I think that if any attempt is made, then Germany should be the motor for it. Without them, I don't see it could be done.

Agree with Germany. Such a league without Germany would be pointless. Therefore all - NHL, KHL and even CHL aiming the German market.

In Finnish hockeyforums many users thinks that Sweden and Switzerland would not be interested in this kind of system, so my dream is that some day there would be four "big" league in Europe. SHL with some extra teams from Denmark and Norway. National league (Swiss) with some extra teams from France and Italy. EuroHockeyLeague with four division (from Germany, "Czechoslovakia", "EBEL" and Finland) and KHL. Then those four league could build somekind of light version of CHL with (for example) two teams from each of those four leagues (SHL, National league, EHL and KHL).

Yes, that is a dream. I cannot imagine this scenario happens in all the details you said, so all leagues participating in it as you described.

On the other hand, I can imagine a few teams from mentioned leagues (&others) to join the KHL or its independent division as said by Chernyshenko recently. I can imagine such a division with 10-12 European clubs who play each other only or with SKA/CSKA and other Russian giants, but no travelling to Siberia/Asia.

 

[Toro2017]

Yes, that is a dream. I cannot imagine this scenario happens in all the details you said, so all leagues participating in it as you described.

On the other hand, I can imagine a few teams from mentioned leagues (&others) to join the KHL or its independent division as said by Chernyshenko recently. I can imagine such a division with 10-12 European clubs who play each other only or with SKA/CSKA and other Russian giants, but no travelling to Siberia/Asia.

You cannot imagine my "big picture", but you can imagine samekind of "big picture" where basicly the only mayor difference would be, that the russians would have big influence on it and at the expence of local federations. You are even bigger dreamer than I am (why would the local federations bend on this one?).

But for speculation sake, let speculate a little. So SHL and Swiss would say no. So Germany, Czechoslovakia area, EBEL area and Finland would go along with this. You say 10-12 teams, so let say that there would be three teams from each place.

European independent Conference (with four division)

Eisbären Berlin
Adler Mannheim
RB München
-----------------
Sparta Prague
Slavia Prague
Slovan Bratislava (would be dropped here, because can not cut it in KHL)
----------------
Vienna Capitals
RB Salzburg
HC Bolzano
----------------
Kärpät
TPS
Tappara
----------------

All teams would play against every other four times and 8 times against other teams in own division. -> 4x9 + 8x2 = 52 games. Then in the playoffs first round division winners would play against division second. For those how get to the second round the best in regular season would play against the fourth and second against third. And then winners would go to finals.

And to integrate these teams to KHL, they would no longer participate in CHL tournament but instead to samekind of tournament (let say the name would be KHL Open Cup). So few games against the like of SKA, ZSKA and so on. So with this there would be no need to pump up those teams budget to the same level as KHL teams.

But why would local federations go along with this (when there would propably be strong russian influense)? It would weaken their local leagues and ruin those participating teams, if for some reason russians would deside not to continue funding this mecanism after one or two years (if their long time plan is just to take some of those teams in KHL and throw the others "to the wolfs").

Of course the local federations could go along with this, if russians would accept to just fund it, but not having any other power to the competition. But then again, why would the russians do that? Putin said before that the expenses should go down, not up. This mecanism would propably only cost more money for Moscow, for some years before it could start to make money on the tv and other markets.

Edit. and more so, if many of those teams are doing well at the moment, why would they want to leave their current situation and for situation, where they would be dependent on russian money?

 

[Exarz]

I don't think a Euro Hockey League is possible at all. As pointed out several times, there isn't enough money for such a league, at least not in the way that it would be an economic advantage for clubs to switch leagues.

I don't think teams from Sweden, Finland or Switzerland would ever join such a league concept due to the economic downgrade, and what you're basically left with is an upgraded EBEL

 

[Toro2017]

or its independent division as said by Chernyshenko recently. I can imagine such a division with 10-12 European clubs who play each other only or with SKA/CSKA and other Russian giants, but no travelling to Siberia/Asia.

By the way, can you provide us with a link to article, where Chernyshenko talks about independent european division? Because I have only seen an article, where he talks about possible separate Asian division.

 

[Toro2017]

I don't think a Euro Hockey League is possible at all. As pointed out several times, there isn't enough money for such a league, at least not in the way that it would be an economic advantage for clubs to switch leagues.

Not even, if the russian would be ready to pay for it?