KHL Expansion Part VIII

[Section Netherlands]

I am sure you understand the difference in hockey youth program between Latvia, Belarus and Sweden on the other hand.

Even our friend from Sweden confirmed it.

As I said earlier, Swedes cannot block the KHL´s expansion to Europe. Even if our Swedes friends do not admit it, the SHL will have serious problems when the KHL expands with multiple European clubs. That is around 15 players per team. Where to get them? Liiga and CZ are able to offer just a few names, the rest must be taken from Sweden and NA. Who has the most players in NA (except CAN/US)? Swedes? Players, who could come back to the SHL if the league were able to offer better paychecks.

Swedish national team would be just fine.

Another Swede here. Every hockey fan in Sweden knows that the KHL and NHL are better leagues. Our domestic league are objectivly worse due to these two leagues being more attractive to good quality hockey players. Sure, this will continue if the KHL expands westwards. But Swedish hockey fans are fans of local clubs, not higher quality clubs. Like stated before, Swedish sports culture lives and dies with rivalries. We dont wish to feed leagues higher up the hierarchy with good players, but its a disfortune we can accept. The football league works essentially the same way. As much as I wish that a Swedish club would join the KHL, it will never happen. Even if it would improve every part of the hockey aspect, the Swedish hockeyfan will not come and see a heated derby between Mora and Khabarovsk.

 

[vorky]

About Tashkent, that's what KHL vice-president Vitaliy Prokhorov told: "At the first stage there [in Tashkent] will be a VHL team already next season. After gaining experience the team will move to the KHL. It will happen after the Beijing Olympics." Link: «Если в Ташкент приедут клубы НХЛ — это будет пик!» «Матч ТВ» беседует с Виталием Прохоровым

Yes, and the latest paragraph says words like "maybe" and "if" or "hypothetically"

Prokhorov is not a guy who is responsible for expansion. His role is to cover YOUTH hockey in the KHL´s structure. And therefore he was in Tashkent and not Chernyshenko, Timchenko or Rotenberg. He even said about MHL going to Uzbekistan if ....

I will repeat, the Uzbekistan rumour is fine, but there are much more such talks with other countries. My problem is not with that rumour per se, but that the rumour gets too much coverage. Even though, there are more likely candidates, whom we hear/read nothing, exactly nothing. And then, ordinary fans who do not follow everything connected to expansion are confused. Or use that rumours as facts, to blame the KHL. I could name HFB users if I wanted .... that is a problem.

One user asked how the KHL can help to develop a game of hockey in a particular country. Here is a reply. But, that country must show an interest, otherwise, the KHL does nothing for them.

 

[vorky]

Another Swede here. Every hockey fan in Sweden knows that the KHL and NHL are better leagues. Our domestic league are objectivly worse due to these two leagues being more attractive to good quality hockey players. Sure, this will continue if the KHL expands westwards. But Swedish hockey fans are fans of local clubs, not higher quality clubs. Like stated before, Swedish sports culture lives and dies with rivalries. We dont wish to feed leagues higher up the hierarchy with good players, but its a disfortune we can accept. The football league works essentially the same way. As much as I wish that a Swedish club would join the KHL, it will never happen. Even if it would improve every part of the hockey aspect, the Swedish hockeyfan will not come and see a heated derby between Mora and Khabarovsk.

Again. Perhaps, I did not write exactly what the problem is.

I do not criticise that Swedish fans do not like the KHL, that they value more their rivalries than a game Mora vs Amur. That is fine.

I do criticise the way how SIHA behaves. Their double-faced behaviour.

And the best way to show how Swedish fans do not care about the KHL is to allow a Swedish club to join the KHL. To have just a couple of fans, not even a thousand, in its KHL games. But, the SIHA is afraid of it. Why?

 

[Exarz]

Side note regarding the Swedish federation and the NHL. The SHL has most likely reached its peak cash wise now. There is no way that the SHL could lure players choosing between the KHL and/or the NLA, the monetary and taxation difference is just too big. That's why they're cooperating more with the NHL, to instead keep the prospects and AHL-players in Sweden, both for their own development and to make the SHL better quality wise.

 

[Jussi]

It is the Swedish assocaition's responsibility and job to look after the Swedish clubs, it's understandable they don't want to risk a Swedish club ending up like Jokerit. Plus there's also the point that the fans don't want their clubs to join KHL. To claim the Swedish hockey association is blocking any club from joining, is disingenuous to the discussion.

 

[vorky]

There was a serious interest in getting Sparta Prague and AIK Stockholm in the past. Both clubs could be top teams in the West, even better than Jokerit. For those, who do not know, Jokerit is among top 3 valuable teams of the league, if not #1. Kurri is a KHL BoD member, so he has a vote in the governing body of the European hockey.

Now, look at both Sparta & AIK. Sparta´s owner has made the club irrelevant in the Czech Republic, fans hate what he has done to the club. AIK Stockholm is still in the 2nd tier, who knows if the club will promote ever. On a good way now, we will see.

Instead of their current situation, they could be the leading clubs in Europe while playing the KHL.

 

[hansomreiste]

@vorky you know that I'm all in for European expansion for KHL but I honestly don't understand why you keep insisting that SHL should be a global league or Swedish teams should want to become a "top" team. Most top-tier European leagues have well-established structures and their teams do just fine. Yes, they are not as shiny as a KHL team. They make and spend the fraction of a KHL team as well. But remember, KHL is just a 11-year old league but Czechia, Finland, Sweden etc. have been running ice hockey leagues for last what, 100 years maybe? I am totally fine with "AIK & Sparta would make KHL stronger!" argument but I don't understand why you base your arguments on the assumption that European teams should want to go global. They're fine in their local leagues. They were built to play against their neighbors all along and they've done this for past 70-80 years without a problem. Why do they have to change it now?

Moreover, KHL is still far from being self-sustaining so it will be a headache to keep a Swedish/Czech team afloat. I'd love to be proven wrong but I don't think any club in KHL could survive on its own. Marketing, merchandise sales, ticket sales, sponsors etc. are not enough to cover the expenses. KHL would require a Swedish team to maybe 5x their expenses. In return, what do they get? Pretty much nothing. I'm sure Djurgarden makes more money playing Färjestad 4 times a season than they would have playing in Khabarovsk and Vladivostok.

Don't get me wrong, I adore KHL and have been a crazy fan since the inception of the league but we need to admit that not everybody is interested. The league can find love only in countries with very strong ties with Russia (Kazakhstan, Belarus etc.) or among "internationals" who particularly love Russia and are interested in their sport. I love KHL because I study Russian philology, my life revolves around Slavic stuff. I love hockey. What better league to follow? Though for Swedes or Czechs, it is not the case. Moreover, we are really insignificant - people like you and me probably make only the %1 or %2 of total viewers. Back to Swedes, Finns and Czechs, they already have their local teams, fans, traditions. Why would they go for KHL, especially when KHL does its best to hide the games from fans? I mean, I wouldn't care too much about KHL if my country was good at hockey with a 14-team, well-structured, decent hockey league.

Just leave the guys alone, they apparently don't want it. Moreover, Crowns is a disastrous project which needs to be abandoned as soon as possible. With this stupid name and artificial look which has nothing to offer about Sweden or Swedish hockey, they should never even come close to KHL. If the league is going to expand into Scandinavia, they have to do this with REAL clubs. Nobody needs a stupid, artificial abomination with an average attendance of 700. If this is what it will come to, then why Kuznya, Yugra or Lada were kicked out? They are not any worse than an artificial team with no fans.

 

[Jonimaus]

There was a serious interest in getting Sparta Prague and AIK Stockholm in the past. Both clubs could be top teams in the West, even better than Jokerit. For those, who do not know, Jokerit is among top 3 valuable teams of the league, if not #1. Kurri is a KHL BoD member, so he has a vote in the governing body of the European hockey.

Now, look at both Sparta & AIK. Sparta´s owner has made the club irrelevant in the Czech Republic, fans hate what he has done to the club. AIK Stockholm is still in the 2nd tier, who knows if the club will promote ever. On a good way now, we will see.

Instead of their current situation, they could be the leading clubs in Europe while playing the KHL.

I'm sorry what? AIK a top team in KHL? Would you import Russian fans to attend their games? You seem to think that based in Stockholm = automatically a good fit for KHL. It couldn't be further from the truth. First of all, in Stockholm only Djurgården has good hockey following, and they would disband their club before joining KHL, so they are out. AIK is by far the most hated sports name in Sweden, due to their football club, so there would be absolutely 0 fans switching to AIK hockey in KHL. With that, remove a ton of their already small fanbase due to them not wanting the club to join KHL (which would be impossible anyways, but this is strictly hypothetical) and you'd see an empty arena.

Now, please, explain to me, what value is AIK to KHL then? They are not in the SHL because they currently do not deserve to be.

I really think your grasp of reality is off, sorry to say. Your hockey knowledge is so limited to KHL (while I have no issues saying mine is limited to SHL and NHL) that you can not understand that some countries and clubs has 0, litterally 0, absolutely no interest to join KHL, and couldn't care less about its league.

Like the post above mentioned, focus on countries and teams that cares and would want to join, and leave the leagues that don't care alone. It would be better for everyone.

 

[vorky]

@hansomreiste

I understand you. And I do not want a club to be forced to play the KHL.

It is all about priorities. What do you want?

A) European leagues to be a colony for the NHL
B) Strong European league/s, which are able to protect their interests

Do you know what does fed me up? The approach of European hockey officials - they do not even try to be independent on the NHL. Once again, nothing bad with Europeans playing in the NHL. That is great! But, that colonial agreement with the NHL is not needed at all. I see only one reason for that deal - European officials prefer a vassal status over fighting with the hegemon (NHL). I do not like that approach. European leagues will never be a significant player on the market with such an approach. Never. That is a classic relationship a lord vs a colony.

When you study Russia, you need to know something about Russians. They do not want to be a colony. All political mess is because of that approach of Russians! They, Russians, want to be taken as an equal partner. The same is in hockey. Europeans are totally different, they choose a vassal status over being taken seriously. Perhaps, the Europeans would like to be an equal partner to the NHL, but their skills (and money) are not enough ....

So, what do you want?

I understand the approach by Europeans. That is an easy way to survive. ... but I want European hockey to have a bigger say in world hockey. Not like with Games in S.Korea when the NHL did not allow the players and who was the biggest loser? Swedes! But, they have a great relationship with the NHL, so many players there... but the NHL will kick them out of a boat at the first opportunity. And Swedes can do nothing, they are pure vassals. And, they could be an equal partner to the NHL, because they are able to develop so many great players. And yes, the NHL promised them to keep prospects in Sweden for a longer period when the signed the NHL TA. What is a reality? I read an interview with one GM who complained that the NHL takes their prospects as early as possible, at 18, to let them play the AHL! A prospect who has ZERO games at a senior level in Sweden. Yes, some SWE GMs are fed up with that, but they are rather quit....

Now, look at the KHL. Yes, players still moving to the NHL, but at later age. Exactly, what Swedes want...

Unfortunately, I can not see any entity in Europe, except the KHL, who want to achieve goals I have already described. Even, the CHL is nothing that a glorious vassal league. And if, if the CHL develops into something significant, it will be thanks to the fact that Swedes left their governing bodies. All is about mentality. The CHL is now run by Swiss people, who btw, refused to sign the NHL TA.

Tell me, why Germans, France and even business people from Sweden are frequent guests in KHL HQ? Because, they see what is the future of Europe. And they want to negotiate better conditions for themself. Only Swedes (and Czechs) are ignoring the KHL. And they will be the biggest losers when the KHL expands. Their leagues will have serious problems to keep their players. Would not be reasonable to allow one KHL team at their territory?

The biggest fun would be if Swedish hockey fans to travel to Germany, f.e. Hamburg, to watch a KHL hockey. That would be really a funny moment. Not saying about an income from taxes etc for a host city. Could be in Sweden, will be in Germany. Nice.

And yes, I see that SIHA wants to protect their league. But, they are not able to do that. The NHL expands, the KHL expands.... so many new players. If Swedes had better transfe deal....

Regarding Sparta Prague. Their current owner has achieved an unique goal when made the team irrelevant since 2014-2015. Paradoxically, Sparta had the best seasons in recent history when was owned by CKD/Holding - KHL´s Lev had the same owner at the same time. Sparta was projected to replace Lev, but Bříza was against. Now, he is a owner and it is a catastrophe. All started with ugly jerseys and ending with poor results. And do you know why was Sparta so good under Lev´s owner? They had money! But, they refused that Russian money, because Czech money are more "fair" or so. Now, they are a poor team. And could be top5 valuable teams in the KHL. Pls, do not bring Slovan, Sparta would be as good as Jokerit if not better.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

@hansomreiste

I understand you. And I do not want a club to be forced to play the KHL.

It is all about priorities. What do you want?

A) European leagues to be a colony for the NHL
B) Strong European league/s, which are able to protect their interests

Do you know what does fed me up? The approach of European hockey officials - they do not even try to be independent on the NHL. Once again, nothing bad with Europeans playing in the NHL. That is great! But, that colonial agreement with the NHL is not needed at all. I see only one reason for that deal - European officials prefer a vassal status over fighting with the hegemon (NHL). I do not like that approach. European leagues will never be a significant player on the market with such an approach. Never. That is a classic relationship a lord vs a colony.

When you study Russia, you need to know something about Russians. They do not want to be a colony. All political mess is because of that approach of Russians! They, Russians, want to be taken as an equal partner. The same is in hockey. Europeans are totally different, they choose a vassal status over being taken seriously. Perhaps, the Europeans would like to be an equal partner to the NHL, but their skills (and money) are not enough ....

So, what do you want?

I understand the approach by Europeans. That is an easy way to survive. ... but I want European hockey to have a bigger say in world hockey. Not like with Games in S.Korea when the NHL did not allow the players and who was the biggest loser? Swedes! But, they have a great relationship with the NHL, so many players there... but the NHL will kick them out of a boat at the first opportunity. And Swedes can do nothing, they are pure vassals. And, they could be an equal partner to the NHL, because they are able to develop so many great players. And yes, the NHL promised them to keep prospects in Sweden for a longer period when the signed the NHL TA. What is a reality? I read an interview with one GM who complained that the NHL takes their prospects as early as possible, at 18, to let them play the AHL! A prospect who has ZERO games at a senior level in Sweden. Yes, some SWE GMs are fed up with that, but they are rather quit....

Now, look at the KHL. Yes, players still moving to the NHL, but at later age. Exactly, what Swedes want...

Unfortunately, I can not see any entity in Europe, except the KHL, who want to achieve goals I have already described. Even, the CHL is nothing that a glorious vassal league. And if, if the CHL develops into something significant, it will be thanks to the fact that Swedes left their governing bodies. All is about mentality. The CHL is now run by Swiss people, who btw, refused to sign the NHL TA.

Tell me, why Germans, France and even business people from Sweden are frequent guests in KHL HQ? Because, they see what is the future of Europe. And they want to negotiate better conditions for themself. Only Swedes (and Czechs) are ignoring the KHL. And they will be the biggest losers when the KHL expands. Their leagues will have serious problems to keep their players. Would not be reasonable to allow one KHL team at their territory?

The biggest fun would be if Swedish hockey fans to travel to Germany, f.e. Hamburg, to watch a KHL hockey. That would be really a funny moment. Not saying about an income from taxes etc for a host city. Could be in Sweden, will be in Germany. Nice.

And yes, I see that SIHA wants to protect their league. But, they are not able to do that. The NHL expands, the KHL expands.... so many new players. If Swedes had better transfe deal....

Regarding Sparta Prague. Their current owner has achieved an unique goal when made the team irrelevant since 2014-2015. Paradoxically, Sparta had the best seasons in recent history when was owned by CKD/Holding - KHL´s Lev had the same owner at the same time. Sparta was projected to replace Lev, but Bříza was against. Now, he is a owner and it is a catastrophe. All started with ugly jerseys and ending with poor results. And do you know why was Sparta so good under Lev´s owner? They had money! But, they refused that Russian money, because Czech money are more "fair" or so. Now, they are a poor team. And could be top5 valuable teams in the KHL. Pls, do not bring Slovan, Sparta would be as good as Jokerit if not better.

Every attempt by the KHL to expand outside of the Russian sphere of influence has failed save for Jokerit and Bratislava because teams can't financially make it. The expenses that come with the increased level of play doesn't bring more revenues, there's still so many teams with less than 5,000 fans per game that they can't be making money, and every legitimate news report states that the teams are fronts for money laundering. You can't have a real league when mob bosses are at the helm and players have to tape money to their equipment.

Yes, Central and Western Europeans are interested in the KHL, but none of them have joined. They've been interested for years and none of them have joined. Everyone thought Koln and Berlin were going to the KHL in 2010, and RB Salzburg after them. But they crunched the numbers and realized it's better to be in a strong position where they are now than to fold after a few years in a continental league. People said a team in London was a lock, they didn't even have an arena and still don't. Everyone thought the same about Gdansk and Huttwil and what happened? Where's the teams in Tallinn, Valarenga, Geneve, Paris, and Milan? People will always have interest, don't confuse that with having a legitimate chance. When there's no TV deal in place and attendance is on par or below the AHL, then you won't be able to attract the best talent. That's not the NHL, that's economics.

People like yourself are so against the unfair things the NHL does with players that they want another force to counteract it. But they don't realize that a continental league won't happen. It would've happened by now if it was possible. Heck, soccer could've done a continental league decades ago and they haven't. As for it being the future of Europe, people have been saying that for a long time now. If anything has shown, it's the complete opposite with European KHL teams failing, DEL and Swiss teams regularly choosing not to leave their domestic leagues.

 

[Jussi]

Jokerit is among top 3 valuable teams of the league

If that were true, one would think it would be easy for Harkimo to sell his share of the club. Yet no Finn is interested.

This whole attitude of Europeans wanting to be a "colony" of the NHL is also completely out of touch with reality. Unlike in football, the market is dominated by the players, there's only one league they want to play in, there is no competition unlike in football. The league/clubs did the math during the short period of not having an agreement, players wouldn't sign without an NHL clause, much like today with KHL clause, it simply is financially more beneficial to have one than not.

Using the Swiss as an example of hockey fed not having a transfer agreement with the NHL when the number of players going to NHL from Switzerland to NHL annually can be counted with the fingers in one hand. Finland Sweden the number is at least double if not triple. The amount of money involved is much greater and more valuable to the clubs.

 

[vorky]

@Barclay Donaldson

Nice post.

You are misinformed about Berlin, London etc. That is exactly what I said earlier. People consider various rumours as facts.

European expansion has not materialised for two reasons - 1) European hockey federations blocking it, 2) international politic situation.

Both reasons are very limited now. Yes, Swedish or Czech hockey federations are still against the KHL, but they are not important anymore. As I said, they will be the biggest losers when the KHL expands. Sadly, but they made their choice.

We will see what will be the KHL economy after reforms. The sanction policy has been the best thing ever happened to the KHL. European hockey officials thought that the KHL will fail soon.

I cannot understand why people use Medvedev´s era examples for Chernyshenko´s era. It is a totally different approach.

It is clear for everyone that many European officials are frequent guests in KHL HQ recently. Of course, not Swedes, but that is their problem.

I recommend you to listen to Fasel. He says a very similar thing - Europe needs a strong league to balance the NHL. Even Bykov says the same. It is not my problem that Swedes, Finns or Czechs are not able to do that and finance it. It would be very naive to expect that from them if they are not able to negotiate a proper deal for their own leagues. They have a mentality of a vassal.

 

[Jussi]

I recommend you to listen to Fasel.

Fasel doesn't really matter anymore, he's leaving the IIHF next year.

All this flaming talk of of European wanting to be vassals of NHL is again an example of being completely out of touch with reality. The subject of the NHL transfer agreement has been talked about here for over 10 years and not a single rational thing the Europeans could leverage the NHL with has been raised.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

@Barclay Donaldson

Nice post.

You are misinformed about Berlin, London etc. That is exactly what I said earlier. People consider various rumours as facts.

European expansion has not materialised for two reasons - 1) European hockey federations blocking it, 2) international politic situation.

Both reasons are very limited now. Yes, Swedish or Czech hockey federations are still against the KHL, but they are not important anymore. As I said, they will be the biggest losers when the KHL expands. Sadly, but they made their choice.

We will see what will be the KHL economy after reforms. The sanction policy has been the best thing ever happened to the KHL. European hockey officials thought that the KHL will fail soon.

I cannot understand why people use Medvedev´s era examples for Chernyshenko´s era. It is a totally different approach.

It is clear for everyone that many European officials are frequent guests in KHL HQ recently. Of course, not Swedes, but that is their problem.

I recommend you to listen to Fasel. He says a very similar thing - Europe needs a strong league to balance the NHL. Even Bykov says the same. It is not my problem that Swedes, Finns or Czechs are not able to do that and finance it. It would be very naive to expect that from them if they are not able to negotiate a proper deal for their own leagues. They have a mentality of a vassal.

KHL won’t fail. There’s too much legal money coming TV deals. It’s a different approach but the same result. It’s not what teams want. If it’s a feasible idea, then it would’ve happened by now. The NHL would have a European division if it was feasible.

European nations are frequent guests, but they have been for a long time now. It’s often times tycoons who think setting up a team is easy and balk when they realize it’s not possible. Which sets up the real reason why teams aren’t joining the KHL: it’s not financially smart. Their revenues won’t increase enough to offset the loss of money from a massive jump in travel costs and an equally large jump in salary increases.

Rene Fasel might say Europe needs the league, doesn’t mean it will happen. It hasn’t happened so far, there’s no reason to think it will happen in the future.

 

[hansomreiste]

Why do you keep saying Swedes will regret it when KHL expands when there is absolutely no prospect of meaningful expansion towards Europe? Is there something I'm missing? When was the last time KHL had an expansion in Europe without disaster? Donetsk, Prague, Poprad, Zagreb... All gone. What do Swedes have to be jealous of, exactly?

Yet the fact that NHL is the strongest hockey league in the world by a big margin is undeniable. I see you want to see it change but neither Russian nor European economies are strong enough to do that. Aside from being rich, Americans and Canadians have the advantage of sharing a relatively similar culture. Europe is simply too diverse to have meaningful rivalries in a continental league. Florida and Arizona might be two different worlds but they still speak the same language, have the same currency, live in the same country etc... Finland and Russia or Germany and Slovakia are not like that - it is simply not viable to have a "global" league in Europe. More importantly, nobody needs that. Even KHL doesn't need this. Add a couple of interested teams if you can and that's it. Why should it need ten to twelve teams from different countries?

Moreover, your suggestion is not about freeing European hockey but turning them into a vassal for Russia. You criticize Sweden for bending for NHL but you ask them to do the same for KHL. Swedish players can always play for a KHL team. It is OK. Anyone wishing to do so already does it. Swedish people have absolutely no reason to want a team in KHL unless they're interested in exotic stuff. Personally, I enjoy watching Admiral games while having a breakfast. Though I assume that Swedes love to watch their team play against some team they know in the evening right after the work. As you perfectly know, sport is an important part of identity and culture in Europe. While competitions like CHL may work in the long run, taking away Swedish teams from Sweden permanently is never going to work.

Political situation is irrelevant. At the moment, it only makes financing difficult due to sanctions. European clubs wouldn't be interested in joining KHL even if the whole continent adored Russia. Because well, it is really simple: they are not interested in Khabarovsk, Vladivostok, Omsk or Nizhny Novgorod. Playing against good Russian teams as part of an international tournament? I'm sure some fans will find this interesting. Moving to an almost all-Russian league forever and playing 50 of 60 games against teams from the cities you can't even find on the map? That's a big no-no.

Again, personally, I really wish to see KHL expand towards Europe. Bring Warsaw Pact back. Turn all countries east of Germany into hockey powerhouses. Bring in Berlin, Prague, Sofia, Bucharest, Warsaw, Kiev/Donetsk, Tallinn... Bring people together so we all celebrate a game between Prague and Warsaw. But this is just a pipe dream. It is never happening. Those cultures are simply too different and it is impossible to run a team without serious financial backing, which again totally depends on an oligarch's will to spend money.

SHL or KHL are still very decent leagues even if NHL "steals" players. I also wish they'd stay in their home league but hockey players have short careers. While you and I can keep working at the age of 50, hockey players are supposed to be active between the ages of 18 and 40 and this is the best case scenario. They want to rack up as much as they can. If you knew you had only twenty years of a career and NHL paid 5mil/season, would you keep playing in SHL for 1mil or less?

There is no need to compete with NHL. KHL just has to do the best it can without thinking about other leagues. I believe it will eventually kick pretty much all non-Russian teams and revert back to being a Russian league because the project is still far from being sustainable. Other than maybe Minsk and Riga, I really can't see any meaningful team joining in. Again, I wish to be proven wrong but I move based on what I see. Russian hockey will always be among the best in the world, no doubt. But KHL as a "Eurasian league" bringing the continent together... It may not happen at all, even if the political situation gets better.

 

[Toro2017]

If that were true, one would think it would be easy for Harkimo to sell his share of the club. Yet no Finn is interested.

As I understand it, it is true that Jokerit is considered top 3 valuable team for KHL, but that just underlines the situation in KHL. Jokerit is one of the most valuable team for KHL, but at the same time it looses money 10-15 million per year. It would be pretty expensive hobby for any finnish investor and when it seems that Jokerit is in KHL just to participate (not to win it), it is hard to see why any finn would like to buy the team from Harkimo (for sporting reasons).

So it is pretty funny, when someone wants to make the case that more and more european hockey countries should participate, because it would be in their own interests. Yes, europeans could join, if they would trust Moscow 100%, but when we see what happened to Jokerit, the idea becomes less attractive. Futhermore if we take a look at the sad state of teams like Dinamo Riga and propably the oldest club hockey team in Europe (Slovan Bratislava), then it is hard to justify the case for any european team to go to KHL. One could say that the bright side is that KHL is not forever, but then again we can take a look at Medveschak Zagreb. They got out, but just one season after it, they were in such a bad shape, that they got kicked out of EBEL.

So if a hockey country would choose to participate in KHL, propably only one of its club team might see some improvement in its "environment", but at the expense of rest of that country hockey program. Or atleast this is, what has happen to most of the european participants of KHL (so not a very attractive deal). And when KHL is justify with the idea that some players would stay home (instead of NHL), can anyone name even one player for example in Jokerit case, that would have played in NHL, if there were no KHL Jokerit? As I understand it, they had more foreigners than finns this season?

So it seems that KHL would be like the last resort for any team in Europe and some people are writing in Jatkoaika.com that this was also the case with Jokerit. They say that Harkimo needed to get rid of Hartwall arena and the only way russian investor were willing to buy it was that KHL Jokerit would be included in the deal. So one could say that Jokerit took a bold step with KHL and other might say (based on rumors) that it was KHL or bankruptcy for Jokerit at that time.

 

[vorky]

@hansomreiste

The KHL will expand with several non-Russian teams. Their rosters will be made by players from Europe. And who has great players? The SHL. Other leagues like Liiga, CZ, DEL are able to offer just a few names. Swiss players will not move to the KHL. The SHL will suffer a lot. Just two or three KHL teams, plus NHL´s expansion. Very simple, the SHL will suffer.

If I were SWE GM, I would think about this scenario.

And yes, SWE club does not have to join the KHL. Their choice.

My issue is NOT that SWE club is not in the KHL or Swedish fans do not want the KHL club. My only issue is the behaviour of the SIHA - if their league is so great, they do not have to worry. Let an SWE club to join the KHL. Especially a team like the Crowns, who is not a member of SWE hockey. There would be only Crowns who would lose because they would have no fans. Any problem? No. Perhaps, you are not aware of the interview I mentioned. Reportedly, SIHA used unfair methods and threats to block Crowns joining the KHL. Why so much efforts to block the move? Especially, if the Crowns would have ZERO fans at their games? Do not tell me, that SIHA wanted to save Crowns the money they planned to invest ... and to get me clear, I do not say the Crowns are a good project. I just say that SIHA behaved very unfair.

Moreover, your suggestion is not about freeing European hockey but turning them into a vassal for Russia. You criticize Sweden for bending for NHL but you ask them to do the same for KHL.

I cannot agree.

When looking at transfer rules, the relationship the KHL vs Europe is equal. The KHL honours players contracts with European clubs and vice-versa.

I agree that it is more expensive to finance a KHL club than a CZ/SWE etc club. But, if you want good players, you need to pay for them.

You have an opinion that such a league in Europe will not work. I am fine with that. Your opinion.

Players can play wherever they want. My issue is the transfer rules, I have written earlier and it is a bit complicated topic.

 

[Jussi]

So it seems that KHL would be like the last resort for any team in Europe and some people are writing in Jatkoaika.com that this was also the case with Jokerit. They say that Harkimo needed to get rid of Hartwall arena and the only way russian investor were willing to buy it was that KHL Jokerit would be included in the deal. So one could say that Jokerit took a bold step with KHL and other might say (based on rumors) that it was KHL or bankruptcy for Jokerit at that time.

Harkimo has more or less confirmed this himself. He said he didn't want to leave the burden of the arena to his sons. He also said in the Iltalehti interview with Päivärinta when asked if his son Joel is the new owner of Jokerit: "No, I wouldn't want such a burden on him." So it's no wonder no one in Finland wants to buy his share. The big speculation is of course what the Russian ownership does in the future, political climate or pressure towards funding a foreign team, the new Helsinki Garden arena which is bound to be more attractive to touring artists due to no involvement with Arena Events and it's ownership (it's been confirmed some artists don't want to deal with them). Several poster at Jatkoaika have been talking about the potential financial aspects it will have on Hartwall Arena and thus it's Russian ownership.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I agree that it is more expensive to finance a KHL club than a CZ/SWE etc club. But, if you want good players, you need to pay for them.

That is why a continental league won't work, no one can't afford the finances of a KHL team. Salaries and travel, which are the two biggest expenditures of a team, are significantly higher in the KHL. That's why they'll stay in their domestic leagues and there will never be a continental league. You do see the stupidity in telling teams they should join a league where there is virtually no additional income but payroll is doubled at least and travel is tripled or quadrupled? Berlin, Koln, and Bern are doing pretty okay financially, but they're never going to join this. No one is. Why do you think there are continuously people drumming up interest in European KHL teams but none have popped up? Where is Geneve-Servette, London, Paris, Valarenga, Milan, Gdansk, and Huttwil?

Forget your hatred of the NHL for a second. Before the beginning of this season, Jokerit had lost 47 million Euros No European team in their right mind would join. Jokerit is a financial corpse walking and Donbass, Poprad, Praha, and Medvescak are dead in the ground. And you have more than half a dozen others that didn't even live before they were put out of their misery.

 

[vorky]

Still, you do not get my point.

Of course, when a team decides to join the KHL, there must be financing. That is fine. But, why to make barriers for clubs if they wish to join the KHL? That is a problem that European hockey federations "invent" barriers for clubs who are interested in joining the KHL. That is a key reason why the expansion is so slow. And politics is another reason.

The same federations who are not able to agree on a simple deal with the NHL on transfers. Why should I believe them that their decision on hindering the KHL´s expansion is beneficial for European club development?

Your main issue is financing. I do not see it as the most crucial issue. I named much more important issues above.

If a Finnish citizen thinks that Jokerit´s financing is illegal, it is his duty to report it to the police.

 

[Jonimaus]

@hansomreiste

The KHL will expand with several non-Russian teams. Their rosters will be made by players from Europe. And who has great players? The SHL. Other leagues like Liiga, CZ, DEL are able to offer just a few names. Swiss players will not move to the KHL. The SHL will suffer a lot. Just two or three KHL teams, plus NHL´s expansion. Very simple, the SHL will suffer.

Let's talk about this when it happens, because it feels really close to a discussion we had on this board almost 10 years ago, at which point you said "a Swedish team is guaranteed to join soon" with teams from multiple other countries guaranteed.
Starting to feel old hearing this over and over when nothing happens.
You did get Jokerit right though, and the rest of us got what would happen to them if they joined right.

Your main issue is financing. I do not see it as the most crucial issue. I named much more important issues above.

Since when is financing a club no the most, but also second, third, and fourth most important issue?
Where would AIK, as an example, get its money? Is Russia going to pay the bills forever? Because they have no money of their own, will not get more money from Sweden, so someone would have to pay the bills. Who?

 

[vorky]

Let's talk about this when it happens, because it feels really close to a discussion we had on this board almost 10 years ago, at which point you said "a Swedish team is guaranteed to join soon" with teams from multiple other countries guaranteed.
Starting to feel old hearing this over and over when nothing happens.
You did get Jokerit right though, and the rest of us got what would happen to them if they joined right.



Since when is financing a club no the most, but also second, third, and fourth most important issue?
Where would AIK, as an example, get its money? Is Russia going to pay the bills forever? Because they have no money of their own, will not get more money from Sweden, so someone would have to pay the bills. Who?

You will never find it out because SIHA blocked the deal. The same with Crowns.

So, again, go and complain at SIHA HQ.

 

[Jonimaus]

You will never find it out because SIHA blocked the deal. The same with Crowns.

So, again, go and complain at SIHA HQ.

Okay so ignore AIK because you don't understand what hypothetically means. Take a team from another country then.

 

[Jussi]

The same federations who are not able to agree on a simple deal with the NHL on transfers.

Finns, Swedes and others did exactly that...

Let me put it in a comparison from real life: European leagues/federations are like the UK and the NHL is like the EU when it comes to Brexit negotiations. Europe/UK has no leverage. The EU/NHL can dictate the terms they want (although with Brexit the UK agreed to those terms in principle when they joined the EU already but I digress).

 

[Jussi]

You will never find it out because SIHA blocked the deal

AIK's only interest was due to their financial situation. They were promoted after the 2009-10 season and dropped interest in KHL after that.