KHL Expansion part II

[Jonimaus]

Although in Finland and all over the world there are many gloryhunters or bandwagon fans (mainly in football and and the big clubs), they all have one thing in common. They follow a winner. There simply isn't money in Sweden nor Finland to build a team that could financially challenge the biggest and best Russian teams. When the team isn't winning anything, the gloryhunters will quickly jump to another team or sport.

Glory hunters in Sweden are the Man U, Barcelona, Real Madrid and so on fans. In Sweden we tend to stick to the club we're closest to, we do our glory hunting in English/Italian/Spanish football. Being a glory hunter in a 3rd grade league is pretty silly considering even the best of the teams are very meh compared to top competition.

 

[Jussi]

Glory hunters in Sweden are the Man U, Barcelona, Real Madrid and so on fans. In Sweden we tend to stick to the club we're closest to, we do our glory hunting in English/Italian/Spanish football. Being a glory hunter in a 3rd grade league is pretty silly considering even the best of the teams are very meh compared to top competition.

I was referring to those exact teams. Being a Man U fan since -91, when the only big win for them that I witnessed was the Cup Winners Cup win vs Barca, I've had my fair share of gloryhunter jibes.

 

[cska78]

Well the injury thing is hyperbole but it's the route they sometimes have to take to learn the ropes of the NA rinks/game. E.g. pretty much every Finn is now of the opinion that Mikael Granlund should have gone to NA a year earlier as he didn't develop that much here and would have been more ready for NHL this season.

As for being able to watch KHL, that's not true. A lot of the games are played during school/work day in Finnish time not to mention that they are not on tv either. I don't know how cheap YLE got to broadcast the rest of the KHL season on their website but the fact that they don't have rights to hardly anything else (excluding Olympics and football's World and Euro Cups) probably had more to do with it. The sports media doesn't really care that much about KHL either(other than Finnish coaches, mainly Jalonen and Jortikka).

I understand all that....NHL is 100+ years old, KHL is what 5?

 

[Jussi]

I understand all that....NHL is 100+ years old, KHL is what 5?

Not sure what you're getting at here???

 

[SCBdude]

KHL does not pay "what the players deserve" they HEAVILY overpay a lot of the players, because they know if they only gave slightly more than what they make in SEL/Finland they would laugh at the offer and hang up. Meanwhile players are taking huge pay-cuts to play in american colleage leagues, the AHL or taking a really bad entry level contract in NHL to be able to play there.

I honestly can not believe you're still on about "a few swedish/finnish clubs joining KHL". Every Swedish and Finnish person on this board will tell you the same thing: It.will.not.work.
If the best non-NHL swedish players are playing in a KHL club in Sweden, people couldn't care less. It's not like we're all changing to become fans of the current swedish club with the best players, why would we change to become fans of a KHL club?

I don't know if fans in Russia is winning-team-joiners, but here we stick with our clubs no matter how **** they are. It's been like 6 years since my club (Malmö) was even in the SEL, but I could not dream of becomming a fan of any other hockey club in Sweden.

Take note of this: If a swedish club will join the KHL within the next 20 years (hard to predict anything after that, for all I know the NHL might have 100 clubs and KHL 500), it will be a club in such bad financial shape that getting free cash from Russia is the only way they will survive.

Same here in Switzerland. It would have to be a team located in a town that hasn't developed a huge fanbase yet and the town would have to be big enough to support develop a lot of fans. The only possibility in Switzerland would be Basel (team in the NLB). But the fans will only come if the teams succesfull and Basel doesn't have the money to be have success.

 

[cska78]

Not sure what you're getting at here???

for 100 + years people been watching the cartoon: "it's the best league in the world". And sooner or later cartoon became the reality.

 

[Peter25]

It sort of helps that all players want to play in the NHL...

Apparently the players don't hate playing in the KHL either.

 

[metmag]

I find it hard to believe that top hockey nations like Sweden and Finland are so sensitive and volatile that a KHL team is capable or screwing up/skewing the whole landscape of the hockey there. I mean it's not Ukraine we're talking about where the whole system is uprooted. I've been to various parts of Europe and the people don't seem to be so dogmatic and cheap to go out and spend an extra 20 euro just to check out a new continental league sporting among the worlds best players, or players like Lee that presumable they have been following to some extent.

But whatever, I guess you know best. Well see what happens when the KHL naturalized more. Personally, I'm happy to have Canadians participate in any European competition, and am happy to have the best national team players from wherever they are, including Garnett who is on team Canada's preliminary roster. I know it is geographically impossible but I don't think Canadians would care in there was an extra KHL team in Canada, say in Victoria BC. Even die hard 3rd generation leafs and Canucks fans would check it out for jokes. Would be pretty fun and not a big deal at all just a side project. I suppose it's different if you feel threatened by it. It is what it is... For all we know tomorrow a rich Finn sets up a KHL team in Helsinki and that's that. Well see how this European hockey landscape turns out in another 5.

 

[cska78]

they actually should feel threatened, as they are loosing their best non-NHL players, who are to play in the world-championship for them to Russian bottom dwellers, such as Avto/Sibir

 

[Jonimaus]

I find it hard to believe that top hockey nations like Sweden and Finland are so sensitive and volatile that a KHL team is capable or screwing up/skewing the whole landscape of the hockey there. I mean it's not Ukraine we're talking about where the whole system is uprooted. I've been to various parts of Europe and the people don't seem to be so dogmatic and cheap to go out and spend an extra 20 euro just to check out a new continental league sporting among the worlds best players, or players like Lee that presumable they have been following to some extent.

But whatever, I guess you know best. Well see what happens when the KHL naturalized more. Personally, I'm happy to have Canadians participate in any European competition, and am happy to have the best national team players from wherever they are, including Garnett who is on team Canada's preliminary roster. I know it is geographically impossible but I don't think Canadians would care in there was an extra KHL team in Canada, say in Victoria BC. Even die hard 3rd generation leafs and Canucks fans would check it out for jokes. Would be pretty fun and not a big deal at all just a side project. I suppose it's different if you feel threatened by it. It is what it is... For all we know tomorrow a rich Finn sets up a KHL team in Helsinki and that's that. Well see how this European hockey landscape turns out in another 5.

That's not it. We don't have a KHL team because the current clubs knows the fans does not support it, and there are no new teams started up because that team would have no fans unless it somehow took the best NHL players into it, because that's what it would take to convince people to abandon their old team to cheer for the new one.

Hockey is already a relatively small sport in Sweden (compared to football, it's definitely number 2 by a large margin) where the only real places where it's the number one sport are the small towns in the northern half. Those cities have successful hockey teams, and the big cities does not care enough about hockey to justify more teams.

If someone rich wanted to put out enough money to keep a KHL team alive, it would probably be fine, but that person/company/whatever would have to realize it would be 5-20 years without the team doing any sort of profit. For the first 5 years the stadium would be empty.

 

[Jussi]

for 100 + years people been watching the cartoon: "it's the best league in the world". And sooner or later cartoon became the reality.

All the best-on-best tournaments have shown where the best players have come, you're fooling yourself if you don't think NHL is the best league in the world.

 

[Jussi]

Apparently the players don't hate playing in the KHL either.

All non-Russians would choose NHL if they got offered the same kind of money from NHL.

 

[Peter25]

All non-Russians would choose NHL if they got offered the same kind of money from NHL.

Well, they get better money and go to the KHL. To keep these players they have to be better compensated.

 

[Jussi]

I find it hard to believe that top hockey nations like Sweden and Finland are so sensitive and volatile that a KHL team is capable or screwing up/skewing the whole landscape of the hockey there.

It's a process that's been going on for a while now. Clubs are having a hard time attracting foreign players because they go a) where the money is, which is KHL, NLA or Elitserien b)where the living conditions are more desirable, which would be NLA, Elitserien or DEL. For the past two seasons the trade deadline has been almost dead in Finland because there's no quality players available or ones that are affordable.

The reason why e.g. Finnish clubs can't offer more money is because the domestic players (the 3rd and 4th line players even) are asking for more money because they are well aware of the market situation and are pricing themselves higher than they dared before. The star players in addition the higher salaries want an easy KHL out-clause in their contract and as Jarmo Kekäläinen said while he was still the Jokerit GM, "some club will always give that clause if you don't". The junior situation varies from clubs to club but for example Jokerit can't fill positions purely from own juniors because the most talented ones are either too young, not physically ready for the men's game or have flaws in their game that are better worked on at lower levels.

Trading among the Finnish clubs is also almost non-existent because players can't be traded outside their "economic area" without permission (meaning only trades among the Helsinki area and Tampere clubs can happen without permission).

 

[ForumNamePending]

So from reading some of the posts in this thread (and others like it) the basic idea is since the KHL is going to sign the best available players from other domestic leagues anyway the wealthiest, most prestigious, and largest market clubs from those same leagues may as well just join the KHL?

 

[Jussi]

So from reading some of the posts in this thread (and others like it) the basic idea is since the KHL is going to sign the best available players from other domestic leagues anyway the wealthiest, most prestigious, and largest market clubs from those same leagues may as well just join the KHL?

No, because they couldn't match the biggest Russian clubs financially and would go from domestic powerhouses to bottom dwellers, in addition to ruining their domestic leagues.

 

[ForumNamePending]

No, because they couldn't match the biggest Russian clubs financially and would go from domestic powerhouses to bottom dwellers, in addition to ruining their domestic leagues.

Agreed... But that seems to be what a couple of posters are suggesting.

 

[cska78]

All the best-on-best tournaments have shown where the best players have come, you're fooling yourself if you don't think NHL is the best league in the world.

I never said that, NHL is the best league today, but wasn't always, as Soviets have proved in the past we had players as good or better. What I was saying is - NHL doesn't have to be the best league in the world forever.

The problem with KHL though is that some privileged teams will always win the Cup. May be with time, it will get more civilized and the parity will be larger, than it is today.

Not everybody in the world considered English the most important language to learn either...

 

[vorky]

So from reading some of the posts in this thread (and others like it) the basic idea is since the KHL is going to sign the best available players from other domestic leagues anyway the wealthiest, most prestigious, and largest market clubs from those same leagues may as well just join the KHL?

Yes, or accept a role of feeder league/club to KHL (and NHL of course). Slovan did great job, moved to KHL. Yes, slovak league is not so good as SM-Liiga etc, but look at finnish/swedish league - loosing talent every summer. Do they like it? If yes, they can play domestic league. If they dont, must find better place - and there is nothing better than KHL in Europe. Champions League? Does not exist.

Finnish/swedish clubs have today problem to keep best players, to stop them going to KHL. What will do these clubs when a) KHL will not have foreigner rule as today b) all (more) KHL clubs will have bigger budget (cca 30-40 mil euro, 20-30 mil euro for salaries).

Yes, I know about "no interest of fans, rivarly" Nothing is impossible.

 

[SCBdude]

Agreed... But that seems to be what a couple of posters are suggesting.

Only people that are from KHL-Countries. The fans of teams from the big domestic leagues mostly agree that joining the KHL would be the wrong choice for those teams in those domestic leagues

 

[vorky]

I never said that, NHL is the best league today, but wasn't always, as Soviets have proved in the past we had players as good or better. What I was saying is - NHL doesn't have to be the best league in the world forever.

Some people dont understand that world is changing all the time.

The problem with KHL though is that some privileged teams will always win the Cup. May be with time, it will get more civilized and the parity will be larger, than it is today.

Who knows? KHL is like euro soccer, but I am sure we will see more competitive clubs in future. Look at Donbass, Lev - could you imagine we have such euro KHL clubs in 2009 or 2010? Their budget is bigger than Altant´s, which is something above 60% (??) of SKA as leader.

 

[vorky]

Only people that are from KHL-Countries. The fans of teams from the big domestic leagues mostly agree that joining the KHL would be the wrong choice for those teams in those domestic leagues

Man, you are right. But I am right as well. Believe me. Your idea of no interest/loosing money dont have to be true. I have experience with KHL, you dont (like Finns/Swedes). I heard that someting theory does not work in reality.

Czech republic is the most anti-russian country in Europe as I know. KHL is there, Lev is succesfull, best attendance of all Prague´s teams (and lockout was an attraction for czech league), big budget, great players (ask Christensen on living here). Yes, there are fans who hate Lev/KHL because it is product of Russia. On the other hand many people visit Lev´s games. I know mentality of fans is not the same as in Sweden/Finland/Suiss but I am sure that hardcore fans of local teams are in Czech rep as well.

Media - you have no chance to read about something else than Slovan in slovak newspapers + tv, etc. In Czech rep is different situation, not so pro-KHL/Lev but still, so many news about Lev. Yes, czech clubs are still no.1 but different is not big.

 

[metmag]

So from reading some of the posts in this thread (and others like it) the basic idea is since the KHL is going to sign the best available players from other domestic leagues anyway the wealthiest, most prestigious, and largest market clubs from those same leagues may as well just join the KHL?

Not exactly. There are few of the opinion that an expansion may be a good idea if somebody can afford/finance it. Lots of people opposed to the KHL seem to suggest that the only way to participate is to have the wealthiest and most prestigious club join, whereas we have seen with Lev Prague that is is not at all necessary.

For some reason people dismiss the Czech Republic. Jussi, wouldn't the Czech Republic not have it worse than Finland? Because not only do they have the problems you mentioned about Finland, but they also get a boatload if juniors leaving to the OHL on a constant basis.

I might need to remind people that the hockey market in Prague is rather saturated with 2 top domestic teams and decade long rivalries not unlike the ones you might find in Sweden/Finland. Lev was an expansion team in this market and got above NLA average attendance. The interesting part I want to highlight that both domestic teams Slavia and Sparta Prague Increased in attendance.

Apparently according to some posters the Lev arena was supposed to be empty for 5 years...either that or Czechs have a higher interest in Ufa and Kazan teams than Finns. Go figure.

What I do know is that every single Finnish player would rather play in Finland if offered the same money to play there. In that case it boggles my mind that Finns would rather see them go to Siberia than support a KHL establishment in their home to have them there and watch them. If a Russian wants to pay for that, even better

But if countries like Croatia can afford spots in the KHL, I have a hunch that it's more of a fear of change rather than affordability.

 

[ForumNamePending]

Yes, or accept a role of feeder league/club to KHL (and NHL of course). Slovan did great job, moved to KHL. Yes, slovak league is not so good as SM-Liiga etc, but look at finnish/swedish league - loosing talent every summer. Do they like it? If yes, they can play domestic league. If they dont, must find better place - and there is nothing better than KHL in Europe. Champions League? Does not exist.

Finnish/swedish clubs have today problem to keep best players, to stop them going to KHL. What will do these clubs when a) KHL will not have foreigner rule as today b) all (more) KHL clubs will have bigger budget (cca 30-40 mil euro, 20-30 mil euro for salaries).

Yes, I know about "no interest of fans, rivarly" Nothing is impossible.

Even if these clubs did join the KHL unless they can increase their budget substantially they are still going to be a feeder team. Look at the talent Riga has lost over a past couple of seasons and look at the way it impacted the performance both on the ice and at the gate this year.

It's hard to argue Slovan's first season wasn't a success both on and off the ice but unless they can drastically increase their budget they are likely going to be facing the same obstacles as Riga. I can see a scenerio where every off season the big money KHL teams will raid Slovan for talent and in return Slovan will raid what's left of the Extraliga. I can see how this could work out well for the likes of SKA, Omsk etc but I'm not so sure about everyone else.

I get that the NHL has done Europe no favours. Given what the European leagues are up against they deserve a lot of credit for not only surviving but growing. I find it a bit hypocritical though that while being critical of the NHL for the way they have dealth with European federations and leagues over the years the same people are pretty much pulling for the KHL to act in the same way. However, instead of just signing the most talented players they also hope to grab a club or two or three.

I also get the desire to see the highest level of hockey possible as local as possible. Would you be cool if the NHL brought in say the 6 wealthiest KHL clubs? Sure it would suck for the remainder of the league but I guess those fans left behind in Novosibirsk and Nizhny Novgorod could always root for Ak Bars and CSKA, right?

As for the 'rivarly' arguement... I think new rivarlies can be built and it is dumb to suggest otherwise but it is also dumb to suggest that existing rivarlies can just be tossed to the side without having a significant impact on a club.

Anyway... I know this thread has gone off topic but still an interesting conversation.

 

[Jussi]

I never said that, NHL is the best league today, but wasn't always, as Soviets have proved in the past we had players as good or better. What I was saying is - NHL doesn't have to be the best league in the world forever.

The problem with KHL though is that some privileged teams will always win the Cup. May be with time, it will get more civilized and the parity will be larger, than it is today.

Not everybody in the world considered English the most important language to learn either...

I think you're mixing Canada and Soviet Union with the NHL/Soviet league here.

The NHL will continue to be the best league until the living conditions/safety/society in Russia reaches North American/western levels. And Russians become better English speakers.