KHL Expansion part II

[Reznor]

I agree that if only one team of these leagues would join the KHL the damage would be minimal to the league. But no team would join because they would not benefit from it.

I'm not sure it would be minimal on a financial point of view for some teams. The budget for an LNA team is already quite hard to reach for many teams and if one of them would join the KHL thus bringing more visibility for a potential sponsor, it could be a big loss for the others.

I'm speculating but I don't think that we should underestimate the fact that a team who wants to be competitive in the KHL could clearly cause a loss of sponsoring for other teams...

 

[SCBdude]

I'm not sure it would be minimal on a financial point of view for some teams. The budget for an LNA team is already quite hard to reach for many teams and if one of them would join the KHL thus bringing more visibility for a potential sponsor, it could be a big loss for the others.

I'm speculating but I don't think that we should underestimate the fact that a team who wants to be competitive in the KHL could clearly cause a loss of sponsoring for other teams...

I don't think that the loss of one team could cause that big of a loss in sponsoring for others. Most of the national attention (fans+media) would still be on the NLA. If however 2 or 3 teams would leave that would definitely become a big factor for the league

 

[Jussi]

Foreign player limits will be gone soon after Sochi.

Only for players from countries with KHL teams, but it still isn't good for the domestic leagues.

 

[BalticWarrior]

Only for players from countries with KHL teams, but it still isn't good for the domestic leagues.

So? What has that to do with KHL?

 

[vorky]

IIRC, this season minimal salary cap in KHL was cca 7-8 mil euro, budget around 11-14 mil euro (Slovan, Riga?) but majority of team did not have less than 15 mil euro, I am sure. Average budget is IMO cca 20-25 mil euro. All this numbers will increase is near future (3 or 5 yrs) - minimal budget 15 mil euro, salary cap maybe above 10 mil euro. Yes, you dont have to believe me. So I have facts from KHL website, Khimik paid cca 2,7 mil euro for players salaries in 08/09 as minimum in KHL. Last season, minimal salalry cap was 350 mi. rubles, maximum 1 100 000 rubles, so 7/8 - 26 mil. euro. Yes, it will icrease in 13/14 and only God knows what happen after Sochi, but I am sure it will be something BIG

EDIT

dont forget about taxes

 

[tohaa]

so apparently Medvescak will play on an NA sized rink...is that what was going on with Lev Poprad? Was it a major issue at the time?

 

[Jussi]

I don't wish for the failure of anything, although I do support the KHL in any region that will facilitate growth and improvement of hockey. As has thus far has already been demonstrated. I am true to the belief that to have KHL participation does not mean a weaker domestic league. More demand for professional players only means more development and success of younger players. I see it as a temporary drain of talent that replenishes over time and only becomes better in the end. For example there have been a constant amount of North American mostly AHL players coming to Europe and now with Zagreb it's like pretty much a whole AHL team drained from NA. I could complain about how the league will be drained or I could take a different perspective. There has been increased room for OHL, USHL, NCAA, and ECHL players. They will get trained and eventually come up to par. As more AHLers go to Europe those aforementioned leagues will be more in demand and will improve!

Unfortunately that's not how things work in the real world. You can't develop players at the snap of your fingers. Using Finland as an example, as was mentioned in the Barkov thread at the Prospects section, the likes of Barkov, Granlund or Pulkkinen would have been playing in juniors much longer than they did because the quality of the league and the level of players was much higher then. International tournaments have shown that the jump from SM-Liiga to national team has been too big for many stars because they are no longer required to work as hard to break in the league. The Finnish junior development system has problems already with the number of kids declining (largely due to the cost) and the quality of coaching.

I've said it before but what works in other countries, doesn't mean it works in all other as well. While Latvia and Slovakia have had success with their KHL teams (though in Latvia's case it hasn't shown on international level) that's more because their domestic leagues were so weak. So what is good for the hockey in one country doesn't mean that it will be good for the hockey in another.

 

[metmag]

So if one of those three Swiss billionaires decided to expand a team in the KHL with a 25mil CHF budget because he felt like it, while operating the NLA team of-course, what would be the problem with that??

 

[metmag]

Unfortunately that's not how things work in the real world. You can't develop players at the snap of your fingers. Using Finland as an example, as was mentioned in the Barkov thread at the Prospects section, the likes of Barkov, Granlund or Pulkkinen would have been playing in juniors much longer than they did because the quality of the league and the level of players was much higher then. International tournaments have shown that the jump from SM-Liiga to national team has been too big for many stars because they are no longer required to work as hard to break in the league. The Finnish junior development system has problems already with the number of kids declining (largely due to the cost) and the quality of coaching.

I've said it before but what works in other countries, doesn't mean it works in all other as well. While Latvia and Slovakia have had success with their KHL teams (though in Latvia's case it hasn't shown on international level) that's more because their domestic leagues were so weak. So what is good for the hockey in one country doesn't mean that it will be good for the hockey in another.

If your juniors become in higher demand in the SM, how does that possibly negatively affect coaching? It's the same coaches at the j20? Or do the coaches somehow get worse because players like Barkov get early promotions

 

[Jussi]

So? What has that to do with KHL?

But...but...but...I thought KHL was supposed to be a pan-European project that supposed to help all European hockey? Are you telling me that as soon as you get into it, **** the rest of the countries, only thing that matters is us now?

 

[Jussi]

If your juniors become in higher demand in the SM, how does that possibly negatively affect coaching? It's the same coaches at the j20? Or do the coaches somehow get worse because players like Barkov get early promotions

It goes to the overall quality of the league. They junior system/development can't supply the demand with adequate juniors to keep the quality high. We don't have good enough coaches in the lower levels to teach the kids properly (= too many fathers who don't know anything about coaching).

 

[BalticWarrior]

But...but...but...I thought KHL was supposed to be a pan-European project that supposed to help all European hockey? Are you telling me that as soon as you get into it, **** the rest of the countries, only thing that matters is us now?

Why should KHL care about finnish league when they dont even want to join? NHL didnt become the best league in the world by beein friendly and thougtful of other countries domestic leagues,but by beeing agressive

 

[Jussi]

Why should KHL care about finnish league when they dont even want to join? NHL didnt become the best league in the world by beein friendly and thougtful of other countries domestic leagues,but by being aggressive

It sort of helps that all players want to play in the NHL...

Like I said, there's people here that keep preaching about "European hockey brotherhood", "we must stand together against the evil NHL", "KHL will help us all" and the end result is diluted domestic leagues in non-KHL countries and they also end up benefiting more from NHL transfer money than easy, cheap KHL out-clauses.

As cska78 said in another thread, it (foreign player limit) also effects the smaller teams in KHL:

I hope not...the only way Lev, Slovan, Riga can hang on to their players is due to the limit. Otherwise all these marginal players will be bought out by richer clubs to substitute for weaker domestic players in the bottom 6.

 

[BalticWarrior]

It sort of helps that all players want to play in the NHL...

Like I said, there's people here that keep preaching about "European hockey brotherhood", "we must stand together against the evil NHL", "KHL will help us all" and the end result is diluted domestic leagues in non-KHL countries and they also end up benefiting more from NHL transfer money than easy, cheap KHL out-clauses.

As cska78 said in another thread, it (foreign player limit) also effects the smaller teams in KHL:

Jussi i dont want to have an argument with you,if youre happy with sm-liiga beeing a feeder to nhl,fine,but then please dont come to khl section troll for responses.

 

[Jussi]

Jussi i dont want to have an argument with you,if youre happy with sm-liiga beeing a feeder to nhl,fine,but then please dont come to khl section troll for responses.

Rather the NHL than KHL, I'd rather see our best players in the best league. And it's not trolling if one can see the "big picture"...

If I wanted to troll, I'd say something like "do you really think Riga's going to ever win anything in the KHL? Indrasis is going to go to a better/bigger team after this season and you're going to start looking for replacement from talented juniors...whoops, you don't have any!"

 

[vorky]

It is funny how some people on this board and elswhere have no idea what KHL is about.

KHL offered swedish clubs to join, they refused. Lets come back to 2008.

KHL´s goal is to challenge NHL. Why not? Eliteserien´s/etc goal is to be feeder league of NHL. Can anybody see the different?

NHL pays almost nothing to Elitserien´s etc euro clubs. Europe is happy with that situation or does not have power to force NHL. KHL´s goal is to force NHL to pay more and negotiate individually about every player, case by case. THIS IS A REASON why KHL can help Europe. If euro leagues dont understand it, so it is sad.

Yes, now are leaving players from Finland to KHL almost for free. But whose problem is it? Why do players have out free clauses? Who created this transfer model. Ohh, NHL did it.

Yes, KHL´s expansion is not good for Elitserien and especially SM-Liiga. I am sad for fans, they are loosing elite players and their clubs have no money or dont have so much money as they deserve. I dont chance this transfer model, KHL can do it, but needs a support of Elitserien/SM-Liiga.

Yes, not all swedish/finnish clubs can join KHL. Money. But, it is still better to have at least a few club in KHL than to lose players and get nothing for it. It is a 1st day of transfer window and I counted 5 (?) SM-Liiga players coming to KHL??? KHL still has limits, btw.

What is different among status quo and possible 1-2+ finnish/swedish clubs in KHL? Nothing serious. League will stay, clubs will play it. BUT they will get much more money from transfers. And of course stay developing leagues as they are now. Media/sponsors interest can drop, but dont have to. Depends on people involving in hockey of country.

 

[BalticWarrior]

Rather the NHL than KHL, I'd rather see our best players in the best league. And it's not trolling if one can see the "big picture"...

If I wanted to troll, I'd say something like "do you really think Riga's going to ever win anything in the KHL? Indrasis is going to go to a better/bigger team after this season and you're going to start looking for replacement from talented juniors...whoops, you don't have any!"

I understand where you are comming from but we europeans need to start doing ourselves and not wait for some miracle and i believe without khl its impossible.
Also i know those were rhetoric questions but ill answer anyway 1. Yes i do believe Rīga will win the Gagarin cup some day maybe not in next 5 yrs,but def someday
2. Indrašis has a 3yr contract,hes not going anywhere
3.we have enough junior players that become good khl,i wont go into details.

 

[ForsbergForever]

I know there is really no basis for this but does anyone think that Hungary/Budapest might one day have a KHL team? I simply seems like a big hole on the European hockey map. Its one of the biggest cities in Europe and is close to many other teams. I know the domestic league is not very good but perhaps a team could be gradually developed like in Croatia and the team in Milan.

 

[Jussi]

I understand where you are comming from but we europeans need to start doing ourselves and not wait for some miracle and i believe without khl its impossible.

Miracle of what? Finns and Swedes want our players to play in the best league in the world and there is no question NHL is the best league in the world. We fully recognize when a player has become too good for a domestic league and needs to move on. More players in KHL simply doesn't cut it. We Finns are already dreading next year's Olympics (as if this year's Worlds aren't bad enough) when we might have more KHL players than NHL players on the team...

 

[cska78]

I kinda agree with Jussi on many points here, except for one: why do Finns and Swedes want their players banging heads in the AHL and on bottom 6 ( I am excluding super-stars like Zetterberg, Koivu etc) in NA getting injured and concussed and all of that while being really hard to watch live (due to time difference), when you can watch all these players play in top-6 on KHL teams at most of the time much more convenient time?

 

[cska78]

the picture quality will catch up, the international broadcasting will improve.

 

[SCBdude]

So if one of those three Swiss billionaires decided to expand a team in the KHL with a 25mil CHF budget because he felt like it, while operating the NLA team of-course, what would be the problem with that??

If he's willing to either

-lose fans due to higher ticket prices or
-keep the tickets cheap and lose even more money

then there's no problem.

 

[Jonimaus]

Stuff.

KHL does not pay "what the players deserve" they HEAVILY overpay a lot of the players, because they know if they only gave slightly more than what they make in SEL/Finland they would laugh at the offer and hang up. Meanwhile players are taking huge pay-cuts to play in american colleage leagues, the AHL or taking a really bad entry level contract in NHL to be able to play there.

I honestly can not believe you're still on about "a few swedish/finnish clubs joining KHL". Every Swedish and Finnish person on this board will tell you the same thing: It.will.not.work.
If the best non-NHL swedish players are playing in a KHL club in Sweden, people couldn't care less. It's not like we're all changing to become fans of the current swedish club with the best players, why would we change to become fans of a KHL club?

I don't know if fans in Russia is winning-team-joiners, but here we stick with our clubs no matter how **** they are. It's been like 6 years since my club (Malmö) was even in the SEL, but I could not dream of becomming a fan of any other hockey club in Sweden.

Take note of this: If a swedish club will join the KHL within the next 20 years (hard to predict anything after that, for all I know the NHL might have 100 clubs and KHL 500), it will be a club in such bad financial shape that getting free cash from Russia is the only way they will survive.

 

[Jussi]

I kinda agree with Jussi on many points here, except for one: why do Finns and Swedes want their players banging heads in the AHL and on bottom 6 ( I am excluding super-stars like Zetterberg, Koivu etc) in NA getting injured and concussed and all of that while being really hard to watch live (due to time difference), when you can watch all these players play in top-6 on KHL teams at most of the time much more convenient time?

Well the injury thing is hyperbole but it's the route they sometimes have to take to learn the ropes of the NA rinks/game. E.g. pretty much every Finn is now of the opinion that Mikael Granlund should have gone to NA a year earlier as he didn't develop that much here and would have been more ready for NHL this season.

As for being able to watch KHL, that's not true. A lot of the games are played during school/work day in Finnish time not to mention that they are not on tv either. I don't know how cheap YLE got to broadcast the rest of the KHL season on their website but the fact that they don't have rights to hardly anything else (excluding Olympics and football's World and Euro Cups) probably had more to do with it. The sports media doesn't really care that much about KHL either(other than Finnish coaches, mainly Jalonen and Jortikka).

 

[Jussi]

KHL does not pay "what the players deserve" they HEAVILY overpay a lot of the players, because they know if they only gave slightly more than what they make in SEL/Finland they would laugh at the offer and hang up. Meanwhile players are taking huge pay-cuts to play in american colleage leagues, the AHL or taking a really bad entry level contract in NHL to be able to play there.

I honestly can not believe you're still on about "a few swedish/finnish clubs joining KHL". Every Swedish and Finnish person on this board will tell you the same thing: It.will.not.work.
If the best non-NHL swedish players are playing in a KHL club in Sweden, people couldn't care less. It's not like we're all changing to become fans of the current swedish club with the best players, why would we change to become fans of a KHL club?

I don't know if fans in Russia is winning-team-joiners, but here we stick with our clubs no matter how **** they are. It's been like 6 years since my club (Malmö) was even in the SEL, but I could not dream of becomming a fan of any other hockey club in Sweden.

Take note of this: If a swedish club will join the KHL within the next 20 years (hard to predict anything after that, for all I know the NHL might have 100 clubs and KHL 500), it will be a club in such bad financial shape that getting free cash from Russia is the only way they will survive.

Although in Finland and all over the world there are many gloryhunters or bandwagon fans (mainly in football and and the big clubs), they all have one thing in common. They follow a winner. There simply isn't money in Sweden nor Finland to build a team that could financially challenge the biggest and best Russian teams. When the team isn't winning anything, the gloryhunters will quickly jump to another team or sport.

Like I've said before, taking Russian cash is a big no for Finns and Swedes because they demand control of the club in exchange for it. When Jussi Salonoja (former majority owner of Espoo Blues) was in discussion with the KHL, they wanted 70% ownership of the club in exchange for financial backing and that was a non-starter, well in addition to KHL no showing him in Russia.