Signing(s): Kevin Durant to the Warriors

[Voight]

Lebron KG and Duncan actually made their teams better

Kobe didn't he is an overrated volume shooter and a cancer

SO I guess we are going to throw out those titles won in 2009 & 2010?

 

[darko]

Lebron KG and Duncan actually made their teams better

Kobe didn't he is an overrated volume shooter and a cancer

Keep telling yourself that.

 

[Halladay]

Can you honestly type that with a straight face? Paul Pierce LMFAO

Kobe's career/talent is closer to Paul Pierce than it is to LeBron and Jordan. LeBron, Wade, Duncan, and KG are all better players than Kobe. Anyone who doest recognize that LeBron as a superior player to Kobe is either A. Kobe fanboys or B. morons when it comes to watching basketball.

 

[darko]

Kobe's career/talent is closer to Paul Pierce than it is to LeBron and Jordan. LeBron, Wade, Duncan, and KG are all better players than Kobe. Anyone who doest recognize that LeBron as a superior player to Kobe is either A. Kobe fanboys or B. morons when it comes to watching basketball.

How is KG better than Kobe?

 

[Deficient Mode]

How is KG better than Kobe?

Gaping and quantifiable disparity in defensive impact. Garnett was one of the very best defenders in NBA history.

 

[darko]

Gaping and quantifiable disparity in defensive impact. Garnett was one of the very best defenders in NBA history.

No denying that but there's daylight offensively between KG and Kobe.

Next thing you know Ray Allen will be better than Kobe.

 

[Halladay]

No denying that but there's daylight offensively between KG and Kobe.

Next thing you know Ray Allen will be better than Kobe.

Ray Allen, no. Im even tempted to throw Dirk in this conversation. The fact of the matter ism many people think he is a top 5 player of all time. I just dont see it.

 

[darko]

Ray Allen, no. Im even tempted to throw Dirk in this conversation. The fact of the matter ism many people think he is a top 5 player of all time. I just dont see it.

He's not. Anyone saying Kobe is top-5 is wrong. But he is still better than KG.

 

[Morozov]

Ray Allen, no. Im even tempted to throw Dirk in this conversation. The fact of the matter ism many people think he is a top 5 player of all time. I just dont see it.

I don't think there's many people who think he is top 5.

 

[Voight]

Kobe's career/talent is closer to Paul Pierce than it is to LeBron and Jordan. LeBron, Wade, Duncan, and KG are all better players than Kobe. Anyone who doest recognize that LeBron as a superior player to Kobe is either A. Kobe fanboys or B. morons when it comes to watching basketball.

No it isn't ... you are just downright slandering Kobe now. Wade??? Really man....

His career is closer to LeBron/Jordan than it is to Pierce....

5× NBA champion (2000–2002, 2009, 2010)
2× NBA Finals MVP (2009, 2010)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2008)
18× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2016)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2002, 2007, 2009, 2011)
11× All-NBA First Team (2002–2004, 2006–2013)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2000, 2001)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2005)
9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003, 2004, 2006–2011)
3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2001, 2002, 2012)
2× NBA scoring champion (2006, 2007)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1997)
25 PPG
5.2 RPG
4.7 APG

6× NBA champion (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
6× NBA Finals MVP (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
5× NBA Most Valuable Player (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998)
14× NBA All-Star (1985–1993, 1996–1998, 2002, 2003)
3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998)
10× All-NBA First Team (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
All-NBA Second Team (1985)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1988–1993, 1996–1998)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1985)
10× NBA scoring champion (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
3× NBA steals leader (1988, 1990, 1993)
2× NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1987, 1988)
30.1 PPG
6.2 RPG
5.3 APG

3× NBA champion (2012, 2013, 2016)
3× NBA Finals MVP (2012, 2013, 2016)
4× NBA Most Valuable Player (2009, 2010, 2012, 2013)
12× NBA All-Star (2005–2016)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008)
10× All-NBA First Team (2006, 2008–2016)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2005, 2007)
5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2014)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2004)
NBA scoring champion (2008)
27.2 PPG
7.2 RPG
6.9 APG

NBA champion (2008)
NBA Finals MVP (2008)
10× NBA All-Star (2002–2006, 2008–2012)
All-NBA Second Team (2009)
3× All-NBA Third Team (2002, 2003, 2008)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1999)
20 PPG
3.6 APG
5.7 RPG

Like c'mon man... this is just downright ridiculous.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Wow, Garnett is not better than Kobe. He's overrated defensively apparently. There's almost no level of defense KG could have provided short of maybe being a top10 defender the game has ever seen to bridge the massive offensive gap between him and kobe.

Ben Wallace
Dwight Howard
Alonzo Mourning
Dikembe Mutumbo
David Robinson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Marcus Camby
Tim Duncan

all were in the NBA at some point with KG and all were better interior defenders IMO

Before someone points out the 9x All NBA 1st Team Defense, guess what, Kobe is also

 

[Deficient Mode]

No denying that but there's daylight offensively between KG and Kobe.

Next thing you know Ray Allen will be better than Kobe.

Offensive difference is smaller than the defensive difference.

Wow, Garnett is not better than Kobe. He's overrated defensively apparently. There's almost no level of defense KG could have provided short of maybe being a top10 defender the game has ever seen to bridge the massive offensive gap between him and kobe.

Ben Wallace
Dwight Howard
Alonzo Mourning
Dikembe Mutumbo
David Robinson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Marcus Camby
Tim Duncan

all were in the NBA at some point with KG and all were better interior defenders IMO

Before someone points out the 9x All NBA 1st Team Defense, guess what, Kobe is also

Mutumbo, yes. Robinson, Wallace, and Olajuwon, maybe. The rest, no. Good thing interior defense doesn't make up the entirety of a big man's defensive work.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Offensive difference is smaller than the defensive difference.



Mutumbo, yes. Robinson, Wallace, and Olajuwon, maybe. The rest, no. Good thing interior defense doesn't make up the entirety of a big man's defensive work.

Ben Wallace? 4x DPOTY and a top 5 rim protector all time Ben Wallace? There no comparison as offensive players but Ben Wallace >>> KG defensively.

Being more versatile does not make him better. Olajuwon and Robinson were more versatile scorers than Shaquile Oneal but that didn't make them better scorers.

Sure he could guard the perimeter better as well as any big in his era and was a good help defender too. The majority of a big man like KGs work comes in defending the low-mid post and locking down the paint and he wasn't nearly the presence in the paint as the aforementioned guys.

 

[darko]

Lol @ KG being better defensively than Ben Wallace.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Ben Wallace was sooooo good defensively in his prime. Those teams routinely held opponents to under 70 pts.

 

[EpochLink]

Ben Wallace was sooooo good defensively in his prime. Those teams routinely held opponents to under 70 pts.

Ben Wallace in the 2004 NBA Finals was a defensive beast, I would've gave him the Finals MVP over Billups.

 

[Voight]

Offensive difference is smaller than the defensive difference.

Mutumbo, yes. Robinson, Wallace, and Olajuwon, maybe. The rest, no. Good thing interior defense doesn't make up the entirety of a big man's defensive work.

You forgot Duncan too.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Ben Wallace in the 2004 NBA Finals was a defensive beast, I would've gave him the Finals MVP over Billups.

I wouldn't have objected if he won it.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Ben Wallace? 4x DPOTY and a top 5 rim protector all time Ben Wallace? There no comparison as offensive players but Ben Wallace >>> KG defensively.

Being more versatile does not make him better. Olajuwon and Robinson were more versatile scorers than Shaquile Oneal but that didn't make them better scorers.

Sure he could guard the perimeter better as well as any big in his era and was a good help defender too. The majority of a big man like KGs work comes in defending the low-mid post and locking down the paint and he wasn't nearly the presence in the paint as the aforementioned guys.

Comparing scoring to defense in this case is a bad analogy. Scoring has one goal: put the ball in the net, and if you can do it consistently and dominantly in one way (Shaq), you're a more effective scorer than someone who can score at a high level in a number of different ways, but none as dominant (Robinson). On defense, you need to be able to respond to everything that the opponent throws at you, so versatility is absolutely far more important than with scoring.

I agree that blocking or altering high percentage shots close to the rim is generally the most valuable defensive skill, but it depends on the defensive scheme. On a team like 2008 Boston - statistically a better defensive team than any of the Pistons teams, and one of the best ever - that defended by overloading one side and rotating like crazy, Garnett's versatility and ability to cover the whole court quickly were the keys to making it all work. He was arguably the best ever at defending the pick and roll, too, another key attribute at the height of the pick and roll craze in the late 2000's. The majority of Wallace's work may have come in the low post, but Garnett's by no means did. In an older defensive scheme, Wallace would have been the more effective defender, but I think Garnett had an even bigger impact defensively with the Celtics.

You forgot Duncan too.

I have him behind Garnett by a little on the defensive end, but he was a superior offensive player.

 

[Ivan13]

Lol @ KG being better defensively than Ben Wallace.

Agreed.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Comparing scoring to defense in this case is a bad analogy. Scoring has one goal: put the ball in the net, and if you can do it consistently and dominantly in one way (Shaq), you're a more effective scorer than someone who can score at a high level in a number of different ways, but none as dominant (Robinson). On defense, you need to be able to respond to everything that the opponent throws at you, so versatility is absolutely far more important than with scoring.

I agree that blocking or altering high percentage shots close to the rim is generally the most valuable defensive skill, but it depends on the defensive scheme. On a team like 2008 Boston - statistically a better defensive team than any of the Pistons teams, and one of the best ever - that defended by overloading one side and rotating like crazy, Garnett's versatility and ability to cover the whole court quickly were the keys to making it all work. He was arguably the best ever at defending the pick and roll, too, another key attribute at the height of the pick and roll craze in the late 2000's. The majority of Wallace's work may have come in the low post, but Garnett's by no means did. In an older defensive scheme, Wallace would have been the more effective defender, but I think Garnett had an even bigger impact defensively with the Celtics.



I have him behind Garnett by a little on the defensive end, but he was a superior offensive player.

I think it's pretty clear cut. Wallace's impact dfensively was far greater despite him lacking the component of guarding more athletic wing players on the perimeter like Garnett could do.

And,the numbers certainly don't show that KG had a greater defensive impact on his team. Also, Ben Wallace's DET teams were better defensive teams than KG's Celtics.

Defensive Rating (points allowed per 100 opposition possessions)

2004 Pistons: 95.4
2008 Celtics: 98.9

On the 2004 Pistons, Ben Wallace contributed 9.1 Defensive Win Shares. The next highest contribution was from Tayshawn Prince with 4.6 DWS.

On the 08 Celtics, Garnett had 6.2 DWS while Paul Pierce and Rajon Rondo were right behind at 5.7 and 4.9 DWS, respectively.

 

[Deficient Mode]

I think it's pretty clear cut. Wallace's impact dfensively was far greater despite him lacking the component of guarding more athletic wing players on the perimeter like Garnett could do.

And,the numbers certainly don't show that KG had a greater defensive impact on his team. Also, Ben Wallace's DET teams were better defensive teams than KG's Celtics.

Defensive Rating (points allowed per 100 opposition possessions)

2004 Pistons: 95.4
2008 Celtics: 98.9

On the 2004 Pistons, Ben Wallace contributed 9.1 Defensive Win Shares. The next highest contribution was from Tayshawn Prince with 4.6 DWS.

On the 08 Celtics, Garnett had 6.2 DWS while Paul Pierce and Rajon Rondo were right behind at 5.7 and 4.9 DWS, respectively.

League average defensive rating in 2004 was 102.9, 2.6 points fewer than the defensive rating of the second best defense (Lakers) in 2008, and 4.6 points fewer than the average defensive rating in 2008. The Celtics absolutely were the more exceptional defense given how offense evolved in just those four years. The Pistons weren't even the best defense that year by defensive rating (Spurs).

You're right that win shares show that Wallace had a bigger defensive impact (although the 2008 season wasn't KG's best in defensive win shares). The stat does, however, suggest that Garnett was one of the 10 best defenders ever, in conflict with what you said earlier. Only Russell, Chamberlain, Cowens, Gilmore, Mel Daniels, Olajuwon, Wallace, Hayes, Ewing, and Mikan had a higher peak than Garnett's 2003-04 season with the Wolves, and only Russell, Duncan, Kareem, Olajuwon, Chamberlain, and Malone have more career defensive win shares than Garnett. Only six players had a higher defensive win shares in the playoffs than Garnett's 2008 season.

Defensive RAPM has Garnett even higher, with 3 seasons better than Wallace's best. Advanced stats definitely support Garnett as one of the very best defenders in NBA history.

The difference between his defensive impact measured by these stats and Kobe's is, again, far greater than the difference in offensive impact.

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

I remember a few people saying that KG would average a triple double for his career when he was drafted. That's how good he was going to be. The hype was unreal back in the day.

 

[K Fleur]

Kobe's career/talent is closer to Paul Pierce than it is to LeBron and Jordan. LeBron, Wade, Duncan, and KG are all better players than Kobe. Anyone who doest recognize that LeBron as a superior player to Kobe is either A. Kobe fanboys or B. morons when it comes to watching basketball.

Late to the party but...

I really don't see how anyone could definitively see Wade as better player than Kobe. Or what they could even use to prove that opinion other than "Kobe is overrated". KG is a real reach as well.

I do think however that Kobe is overrated by some fans. I think that mostly comes from Kobe being more aesthetically fun to watch for a lot of people than players like Duncan, LeBron etc. I understand the frustration with this line of thinking for non Kobe fans people, but it's just as hyperbolic to claim Kobe was closer to Pierce than he ever was to LeBron.

 

[Halladay]

Late to the party but...

I really don't see how anyone could definitively see Wade as better player than Kobe. Or what they could even use to prove that opinion other than "Kobe is overrated". KG is a real reach as well.

I do think however that Kobe is overrated by some fans. I think that mostly comes from Kobe being more aesthetically fun to watch for a lot of people than players like Duncan, LeBron etc. I understand the frustration with this line of thinking for non Kobe fans people, but it's just as hyperbolic to claim Kobe was closer to Pierce than he ever was to LeBron.

I actually like Kobe. Truly do. But I have numerous friends who think he is 2nd behind MJ. I know they arent alone on this statement.