Kessel Vetoed trade to Wild

[HandshakeLine]

But again, we're taking about a team who won 2 Stanley Cups. We're not talking about the average team, we're talking about the most successful team in the salary cap era. We're talking about a team who hasn't missed the playoffs since 2006. We're talking about a team that has won more than an entire cup run's worth of games in the playoffs over that window more than the next best team (Penguins at 97 wins, Boston 2nd at 79 wins). They're not the average team.

Mike Sullivan has coaches the Penguins to the 3rd best record in all of hockey since he became the head coach, only after Tampa and Washington. The Penguins have averaged about 105 points per season with Sullivan as the coach. They've played in the most playoff games of any team in the last 4 years and have the best winning% in the playoffs of any team, even with them getting swept this year. They have won 2 cups with Sullivan. If you fire Sullivan anytime this season, not a single good coach will want to come here with what Sullivan has done as the Penguins coach. There is not a coach out there that looks at Sullivan's resume and thinks "this is a safe job for me to take".

I don't get this at all, Emp. Sullivan, if he gets fired tomorrow still gets paid. Other coaches will definitely want to coach, because they have a good shot at becoming a Stanley Cup winning coach, which drives up their prices on the market. Nobody takes a coaching job because it's "safe". This isn't college football.

Sullivan wouldn't get fired because he failed one year. He's going on three years with some serious struggles in the regular season and in the post-season. How many more passes should we give him, we being so magnanimous?

 

[Empoleon8771]

The examples you listed ... are still winning.

Do you seriously consider winning in 2017 to not be winning anymore? We're not talking about an 8 or 9 year gap, we're talking about 2 god damn seasons.

God, Penguins fans are the most spoiled fans in the NHL.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Based on Sully's system/style and what we've won with while he's been coaching, and the moves JR has made since big bad Tom Wilson made him lose his mind in 2017, it's like JR and Sully don't meet whatsoever when it comes to acquisitions.

Again, I'm fine with firing Sully under the pretense that he's lost the room. But I don't think it's worth tossing a good coach and opening up the possibility that we get another Bylsma, Johnston, Hakstol, Desjardins, etc. A bad coach will undo a good roster, 100% of the time. We're not exactly a good team either, so a bad coach with this roster (and GM) is a recipe for disaster.

I think it's something to consider as the season begins, though. I'm 100% NOT advocating we fire Sullivan now. I think he's earned a fair chance to show that he can get this team back on track, and I absolutely want there to be a good plan B in the works (hell, maybe even get rid of Recchi and hire another experienced HC who we like as an assistant?)

But I don't think we should act like this team hasn't had massive problems in the regular season, in the post season, and in the locker room, especially since we only realistically have about 3-4 years left to contend. Might as well be demanding now, and then we can rebuild.

 

[Pens1566]

Do you seriously consider winning in 2017 to not be winning anymore? We're not talking about an 8 or 9 year gap, we're talking about 2 god damn seasons.

God, Penguins fans are the most spoiled fans in the NHL.

Yes, when the decline goes :

2016 - Dominate basically everyone
2017 - PDO nirvana
2018 - Win one series
2019 - Swept in 1st

Along with all the other listed items above.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Do you seriously consider winning in 2017 to not be winning anymore? We're not talking about an 8 or 9 year gap, we're talking about 2 god damn seasons.

God, Penguins fans are the most spoiled fans in the NHL.

Are you having a bad day? Because I'm not sure what's getting you so mad in this thread, Emp.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't get this at all, Emp. Sullivan, if he gets fired tomorrow still gets paid. Other coaches will definitely want to coach, because they have a good shot at becoming a Stanley Cup winning coach, which drives up their prices on the market. Nobody takes a coaching job because it's "safe". This isn't college football.

Why would any coach who has already won a cup want to gamble on a team with the reputation the Penguins have with regards to coaches? That's the thing you're ignoring here. Just because stability isn't the most important thing doesn't mean it's irrelevant. I'll ask again, why would any coach worth a damn want to take a gamble on winning a cup with the Penguins when they can wait for a safer alternative? This isn't just about job security, you're going to get more chances to win with a patient team than you would a trigger happy team.

It's why it was always a laughable suggestion that Quenneville would ever come to the Penguins, he'd laugh in their faces if they seriously tried to get him.

Sullivan wouldn't get fired because he failed one year. He's going on three years with some serious struggles in the regular season and in the post-season. How many more passes should we give him, we being so magnanimous?

Do you seriously think their 2017-2018 season is "serious struggles in the regular season and post-season"? Not winning a cup doesn't mean they had serious struggles.

 

[K Fleur]

Yeah the Warriors have been to 5 straight finals winning 3 and the Patriots have been to 3 straight, winning 3 SB’s in the last 5 years.

Those weren’t good examples against the current Pens. They’re not getting swept in the first round.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yes, when the decline goes :

2016 - Dominate basically everyone
2017 - PDO nirvana
2018 - Win one series
2019 - Swept in 1st

Along with all the other listed items above.

Or another way to put it:

2016-won the Stanley Cup
2017-won the Stanley Cup
2018-lost a close series to the team that eventually won the Stanley Cup
2019-Swept in the 1st round

It's just mind boggling how spoiled some Penguins fans are to me. The revisionist history to justify firing a coach because you didn't win 4 cups in a row is just insanity.

Yeah the Warriors have been to 5 straight finals winning 3 and the Patriots have been to 3 straight, winning 3 SB’s in the last 5 years.

Those weren’t good examples against the current Pens.

So the Penguins, who won 2 of the last 4 cups, aren't comparable to the Warriors and Patriots, who have won 3 of the last 5 championships, because the NFL and NBA have less parity than the NHL. Gotcha, that makes perfect sense.

 

[Pens x]

Yes, when the decline goes :

2016 - Dominate basically everyone
2017 - PDO nirvana
2018 - Win one series
2019 - Swept in 1st

Along with all the other listed items above.

People gave Bylsma and Shero a free pass for 5 years after we won the cup in 2009, so this is to be expected, unfortunately.

This team has fallen off a cliff since we won the cup. The players seem largely interested and our GM makes one poor decision after another. However, it took ownership several years too long to see Shero and Bylsma sucked, so I don’t expect any GM change until next spring, and a coaching change in December when we start off terribly for the third straight season.

 

[Pens x]

Or another way to put it:

2016-won the Stanley Cup
2017-won the Stanley Cup
2018-lost a close series to the team that eventually won the Stanley Cup
2019-Swept in the 1st round

It's just mind boggling how spoiled some Penguins fans are to me. The revisionist history to justify firing a coach because you didn't win 4 cups in a row is just insanity.



So the Penguins, who won 2 of the last 4 cups, aren't comparable to the Warriors and Patriots, who have won 3 of the last 5 championships, because the NFL and NBA have less parity than the NHL. Gotcha, that makes perfect sense.

How are we spoiled? Many of us see incompetent people coaching and managing this team. It’s ridiculous to stand around and say they just won a cup 2 years ago. We are a lot closer to being a non-playoff team than a contender as of today. But it’s okay, we didn’t suck in 2017? Gotcha.

 

[K Fleur]

Or another way to put it:

2016-won the Stanley Cup
2017-won the Stanley Cup
2018-lost a close series to the team that eventually won the Stanley Cup
2019-Swept in the 1st round

It's just mind boggling how spoiled some Penguins fans are to me. The revisionist history to justify firing a coach because you didn't win 4 cups in a row is just insanity.



So the Penguins, who won 2 of the last 4 cups, aren't comparable to the Warriors and Patriots, who have won 3 of the last 5 championships, because the NFL and NBA have less parity than the NHL. Gotcha, that makes perfect sense.

That’s another reason why those team’s and their coaching situations aren’t good comparables.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

This organization has a history of tuning coaches out, and playing balls-to-the-wall for the newbie. It has worked. Otherwise, the words Dan Bylsma and Stanley Cup would never be associated. Ever.

I could see the case for Sullivan if firing a coach never gets the desired results but damn, the proof is in the pudding.

Also, it is pretty hard to justify the "career coach" model when Craig Berube just did what he did.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The Penguins have had more success than any NHL team in the salary cap era, both in recent success and overall success. Only Chicago has the same amount of cup wins and no one has as many playoff wins, playoff appearances and regular season wins as the Penguins. We're not looking at an 5 year cup drought that was filled with multiple embarrassing playoff exits, we're talking about 1 bad playoff run and losing a close series to the eventual cup champion in the 2 years after winning back to back cups. We're not looking at a team that has seriously fallen off into being a non-playoff team, the Penguins had 100 points both this year and last year.

So yes, that's spoiled in my eyes. That's crazily spoiled in my eyes. It's saying that the coach should be fired for not winning 3 or 4 cups in 4 years. I have genuinely no clue how anyone can think that is a reasonable expectation for this team, or any team in any sport.

This organization has a history of tuning coaches out, and playing balls-to-the-wall for the newbie. It has worked. Otherwise, the words Dan Bylsma and Stanley Cup would never be associated. Ever.

I could see the case for Sullivan if firing a coach never gets the desired results but damn, the proof is in the pudding.

Also, it is pretty hard to justify the "career coach" model when Craig Berube just did what he did.

That is an incredibly backward way of thinking. That's the same line of thought that caused the Penguins to cling onto guys like Dupuis and Kunitz well passed their expiration date. Continuing to do things now because they've worked in the past is a great way to fall off in the NHL.

 

[Peat]

I don't get this at all, Emp. Sullivan, if he gets fired tomorrow still gets paid. Other coaches will definitely want to coach, because they have a good shot at becoming a Stanley Cup winning coach, which drives up their prices on the market. Nobody takes a coaching job because it's "safe". This isn't college football.

Sullivan wouldn't get fired because he failed one year. He's going on three years with some serious struggles in the regular season and in the post-season. How many more passes should we give him, we being so magnanimous?

*blinks* Three years? He had struggles in the 16/17 season?

 

[Pens1566]

Or another way to put it:

2016-won the Stanley Cup
2017-won the Stanley Cup
2018-lost a close series to the team that eventually won the Stanley Cup
2019-Swept in the 1st round

It's just mind boggling how spoiled some Penguins fans are to me. The revisionist history to justify firing a coach because you didn't win 4 cups in a row is just insanity.



So the Penguins, who won 2 of the last 4 cups, aren't comparable to the Warriors and Patriots, who have won 3 of the last 5 championships, because the NFL and NBA have less parity than the NHL. Gotcha, that makes perfect sense.

Take your "spoiled" and shove it. I've been a pens fan since mid-late 80s and I don't want to watch the remaining window for this core get Sully'd away.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Don't any of Phil's devoted supporters think it's odd that only Minnesota wants him? In a summer where Duchene's gonna make $10 million+, Panarin's going to Florida or the Rangers, Skinner's off the books, etc., don't you think more people would want to step up and acquire this elite player on a "steal" of a contract?

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think it's something to consider as the season begins, though. I'm 100% NOT advocating we fire Sullivan now. I think he's earned a fair chance to show that he can get this team back on track, and I absolutely want there to be a good plan B in the works (hell, maybe even get rid of Recchi and hire another experienced HC who we like as an assistant?)

But I don't think we should act like this team hasn't had massive problems in the regular season, in the post season, and in the locker room, especially since we only realistically have about 3-4 years left to contend. Might as well be demanding now, and then we can rebuild.

I'm of the belief that Mario should've just shown everyone the door after the sweep. JR, Sully, Recchi, everybody. This team needs many significant changes to the roster, additions as well as subtractions, but the front office is a directionless shit-show and the coaching staff may have lost the ear of guys like Sid, Geno and Letang.

I just can't abide by people saying Sullivan is the next Bylsma, because that's just nonsense. Whether or not he's lost the room full of superstars with egos is one thing, and I'm probably in agreement, but for others to imply he's some dunce is infuriating. It's like people completely forget just how bad a legitimately idiotic coach is--we just had two, Bylsma and Johnston.

 

[ownal]

Don't any of Phil's devoted supporters think it's odd that only Minnesota wants him? In a summer where Duchene's gonna make $10 million+, Panarin's going to Florida or the Rangers, Skinner's off the books, etc., don't you think more people would want to step up and acquire this elite player on a "steal" of a contract?

It's not July 1st yet and he has an 8 team trade list.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

It's not July 1st yet and he has an 8 team trade list.

I understand the situation. I also understand how big of a magnifying glass is on it, and if other teams were seriously interested, we'd have heard details.

So far it's Minnesota and Zucker, and a bunch of random people floating the idea that he'd want to play in Arizona--though they don't seem to want him whatsoever.

Teams waiting to see if they strike out on big names is one thing, but a move after July 1st allows Phil to adjust his list to make it even more difficult as well.

 

[molon labe]

I'm of the belief that Mario should've just shown everyone the door after the sweep. JR, Sully, Recchi, everybody. This team needs many significant changes to the roster, additions as well as subtractions, but the front office is a directionless ****-show and the coaching staff may have lost the ear of guys like Sid, Geno and Letang.

I just can't abide by people saying Sullivan is the next Bylsma, because that's just nonsense. Whether or not he's lost the room full of superstars with egos is one thing, and I'm probably in agreement, but for others to imply he's some dunce is infuriating. It's like people completely forget just how bad a legitimately idiotic coach is--we just had two, Bylsma and Johnston.

People saying that have yet to mention a coach who they think can make the impossible - possible.

I'd like to know a coach who could have made these 2018 Penguins more successful. Genuinely. Start them with the following:

-#1D who's extremely risky and will not change his style for anyone
- 2nd line that has to include both Geno and Kessel
- Jack Johnson and Olli Maatta - and a 28M+ defense that's near the bottom of the league in performance

What is your argument that what he did with those roster features is on him? You folks are preaching that a driver lost the race when he had 3 flat tires and an engine problem. Who does better? Peanut-gallery stuff going on here. Because Kessel produced at a ppg means Sully should have made up for him being a net-negative player? The role of the coach is overrated to begin with... fact is, you're not getting anyone in here who A) does better, or B) plays more of the style that these 'stars' want to play. If you think he's worn his welcome then argue that - but stop pretending like he's what's wrong with Kessel on this team - or he's at fault for what has happened over the past two seasons.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

That's a different issue too, Jiggy. And if Sully's going to the FO and asking for more puckmoving blueliners and getting Jack "The Great White Disappointment " Johnson, then that's the root of the problems and ownership needs to do something about it.

I can’t imagine adding JJ and Gubs to a top six with Maatta is something Sullivan was pounding his fist on the table about... would probably be comical as hell to know what Sullivan really thought.

It was more likely a Reeves scenario where JR felt it was what’s best and when he makes up his mind about something...

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I can’t imagine adding JJ and Gubs to a top six with Maatta is something Sullivan was pounding his fist on the table about... would probably be comical as hell to know what Sullivan really thought.

It was more likely a Reeves scenario where JR felt it was what’s best and when he makes up his mind about something...

Big Bad Tom Wilson, runnin' wild in JR's mind since 2016 when he ran Sheary, and 2017 when he ran ZAR. Ignore the insignificant detail that we actually won the Cup in both years because we weren't laden with ineffective, or downright bad players, but y'know. Muscle.

 

[Pens x]

Don't any of Phil's devoted supporters think it's odd that only Minnesota wants him? In a summer where Duchene's gonna make $10 million+, Panarin's going to Florida or the Rangers, Skinner's off the books, etc., don't you think more people would want to step up and acquire this elite player on a "steal" of a contract?

His limited NMC hinders his value quite a bit. Plus who knows all of the facts, maybe old man is requiring any team that wants Kessel also take Johnson?

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

His limited NMC hinders his value quite a bit. Plus who knows all of the facts, maybe old man is requiring any team that wants Kessel also take Johnson?

I thought the JJ - Rask thing was Minnesota's idea?

Either way, I don't think his NMC is the reason we haven't heard any specifics as to other teams making offers for him. Minnesota's apparently a no-go, and we know the details on that proposed trade.

I just think people realize Phil's a temperamental, 32 year old winger that makes $7 million a year, doesn't really give a shit at ES, and cannot be coached. Not exactly a superb asset to chase.

 

[Mrs Crosby's Dryer]

thank god he vetoed that trade.

Agreed, that return absolutely sucked.