Kessel Vetoed trade to Wild

[HandshakeLine]

Phil does what he wants. But so does Crosby. So does Malkin. Kris "I don't need to play a safer game, I need as much brain damage and weird medical issues as I can get, otherwise I'm not a man" Letang does too. Hornqvist and Sid have issues. Malkin and Hornqvist have issues.

The point is that Sully is doing a piss poor job of controlling the room and the bench, and it's not just Phil that's being a problem child.

I'm not trying to troll, I honestly just don't get how you can't look at this team and see a team that isn't actively tuning a coach out right now. And the best solution to that is always "get a new coach."

 

[Burn]

I wouldn’t want to leave either. I think the coach relationship stuff is overblown. How many of us would uproot our successful lives entirely just because we didn’t like our boss? I’m not even sure Kessel hates Sully, even if Sully can’t stand him at this point, just because Phil probably hasn’t gotten along with a single head coach ever.

Two years ago I saw Kessel flying across the ice at UPMC and step on a puck which sent him sliding 15'. Mario and Larouche ripped him for 15 mins from the box above the ice. All of them laughing and joking.

I think Mario keeps the Pens very/ overly player friendly and Phil knows its not like that in most cases.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Phil does what he wants. But so does Crosby. So does Malkin. Kris "I don't need to play a safer game, I need as much brain damage and weird medical issues as I can get, otherwise I'm not a man" Letang does too. Hornqvist and Sid have issues. Malkin and Hornqvist have issues.

The point is that Sully is doing a piss poor job of controlling the room and the bench, and it's not just Phil that's being a problem child.

I'm not trying to troll, I honestly just don't get how you can't look at this team and see a team that isn't actively tuning a coach out right now. And the best solution to that is always "get a new coach."

The issue is that if you just fire a coach when the core tunes you out, why would any coach worth a damn want to come here? At that point, the core will be well established as coach killers. Why would any coach want to come to a team where winning 2 cups still results in you getting fired 2 years after not winning?

At some point, you can't just keep firing the coaches.

 

[froods]

Yes, that works. Because at the end of the day point production matters. It matters a lot.




I agree with you on Jack Johnson. Wholeheartedly and word for word. It would be nice to get rid of his cap hit but he is not the main problem.

If the point-per-game players in question are no longer committed, is it not the job of the head coach to rediscover said commitment? Why were they committed when we were winning back-to-back Cups?

Somebody needs to drive the bus on offense. If two of those players are unhappy, the man behind the bench needs to look in the mirror. Plus weren't there also whispers about Sullivan being unhappy with Letang, too?

This isn't a Jack Johnson problem. It isn't a Phil Kessel problem, an Evgeni Malkin problem or a Kris Letang problem. It's a Mike Sullivan problem.

Maybe. I think there is blame to go around. I would include all management and the players. I do like what JR is doing right now by putting everybody on notice.

 

[K Fleur]

Kessel and Malkin were having temper tantrums on the bench dating back to the 2017 playoffs. The difference was Sullivan atleast seemed to see that their frustration was coming from a place of wanting to win and he seemed to funnel that frustration in the right direction.




Rick Tocchet: ‘Barking’ a non-issue in Sullivan, Malkin and Kessel dynamic

Maybe I’m blind or just oblivious, but where has that Sullivan been the last 2 years?

 

[HandshakeLine]

The issue is that if you just fire a coach when the core tunes you out, why would any coach worth a damn want to come here? At that point, the core will be well established as coach killers. Why would any coach want to come to a team where winning 2 cups still results in you getting fired 2 years after not winning?

At some point, you can't just keep firing the coaches.

Except everybody does, no matter what the club is (and assuming you're not Coach Q ). Coaches have short shelf lives in the modern game. Sully's been making odd matchup decisions, he's got locker room drama, FO drama, he can't seem to get on the same page as his GM, and his players aren't really sticking up for him like they did at the beginnings of his tenure.

He's gotten two cups, and had two disappointing years. He deserves to start the season here, sure. But if he can't fix or won't fix some of these issues, then it's time for a new coach, not trading every potential problem on the team.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Phil does what he wants. But so does Crosby. So does Malkin. Kris "I don't need to play a safer game, I need as much brain damage and weird medical issues as I can get, otherwise I'm not a man" Letang does too. Hornqvist and Sid have issues. Malkin and Hornqvist have issues.

The point is that Sully is doing a piss poor job of controlling the room and the bench, and it's not just Phil that's being a problem child.

I'm not trying to troll, I honestly just don't get how you can't look at this team and see a team that isn't actively tuning a coach out right now. And the best solution to that is always "get a new coach."

I'm not sure it's fair to really compare Sid or Geno to Phil Kessel.

Phil makes his line dramatically worse when he's pouting. Sure, I suppose that goes for Sid sleepwalking through shifts, or Geno acting like a dummy and swinging his stick around widly, but Sid and Geno are not complimentary pieces. Phil Kessel is a complimentary player whose bad now heavily outweighs the good, both in terms of his laziness on the ice as well as his issues as far as where to play him, age, etc. are concerned.

I still maintain that a guy with like Zucker, with his skillset and style, is an absolutely adequate replacement for Kessel. Assuming he gets back to 65pt levels, which I don't think is unrealistic whatsoever considering who he'd be playing with, that production coupled with Jake getting top PP time is enough to recoup the lost production when moving Phil.

Dude's gotta go. Maybe Sully does too, if he's lost the room (which is the only thing I'm worried about with the coach--he's a damn good coach, but with superstars come egos, and with egos you get guys tuning out coaches, etc), but we're in the exact same position with Phil that we were in with Neal. Complimentary winger, exhibits all the bad traits that are affecting the team right now, makes sense to move on in order to shift the direction of the team, even if it means getting a "lesser" player in return. Honestly, I think it's an easier decision to move on from Phil than it was to move on from Neal. Both were lazy, both did whatever they wanted despite any attempt at coaching, but Phil's 32 by the time the season opens, whereas Neal was just 26 when we moved on from him. Neal was also on a better contract.

I don't know, man. I'd rather take my chances that Zucker (if we can convince Phil to waive) and Jake's power play bump cover Phil's production while still making us a better team than to keep the guy for fear of "what if". I do think Mario should've fired JR immediately after we got swept though, and if that meant losing Sully as well, so be it. This team is headed in a bad, bad direction. I don't trust the GM that got us here to fix the mess either.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I totally agree with this. Hornqvist on the third makes no sense, nor does Kessel with Malkin. Even if you were to keep Kessel on as a PP specialist (which at his elite production is okay by me), you should still find a 3rd line that works, WITH Kessel on it (since Sullivan isn't going to play him anywhere else). So, either get rid of Kessel or get rid of Hornqvist, but don't have both of them on the roster, on a line that they don't work well on, and at large cap hits.

I severely doubt Kessel is back. JR just needs to keep his leverage right now with both Kessel and his peers.

 

[HandshakeLine]

It's totally fair. If we're going to make sweeping pronouncements about who belongs on this team because of "effort", then we should absolutely question why our stars are running things instead of the coaching staff.

I still maintain that it's Sully's job to ice the best roster possible, and to get the most out of the roster he has. If he can't do that, or he's lost the faith of the FO or players, then he goes. It's that simple.

 

[molon labe]

Phil does what he wants. But so does Crosby. So does Malkin. Kris "I don't need to play a safer game, I need as much brain damage and weird medical issues as I can get, otherwise I'm not a man" Letang does too. Hornqvist and Sid have issues. Malkin and Hornqvist have issues.

The point is that Sully is doing a piss poor job of controlling the room and the bench, and it's not just Phil that's being a problem child.

I'm not trying to troll, I honestly just don't get how you can't look at this team and see a team that isn't actively tuning a coach out right now. And the best solution to that is always "get a new coach."

Crosby - No issues with effort, puts up 100 points
Guentzel - No issues with effort, puts up 40 goals
Hornqvist - No issues with effort, despite being thrown all over hell and back
Rust - No issues with effort, see Hornqvist.
Cullen - No issues with effort, is 40+ years old
Simon - No issues with effort, see Hornqvist/Rust
ZAR - No issues with effort
Wilson - No issues with effort

Schultz - No issues with effort
Gudbranson - No issues with effort
Pettersson - No issues with effort
Johnson - No issues with effort (not sure what you classify his playing as, but I think he's trying)
Dumoulin - No issues with effort

Clearly Sully is a piss poor bench boss who just doesn't get it. Let's take our stance on the evidence provided by three players who have no histories of tempers (Geno, Phil, Letang).... I mean, wow. I don't know who people think can possibly make oil and water (Phil and Geno) go together. Aerospace engineers can't even figure that one out (which is why pre-flight checks are still a thing). Damn a coach for not making the impossible - possible. Fire him and bring someone else.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Except everybody does, no matter what the club is (and assuming you're not Coach Q ). Coaches have short shelf lives in the modern game. Sully's been making odd matchup decisions, he's got locker room drama, FO drama, he can't seem to get on the same page as his GM, and his players aren't really sticking up for him like they did at the beginnings of his tenure.

He's gotten two cups, and had two disappointing years. He deserves to start the season here, sure. But if he can't fix or won't fix some of these issues, then it's time for a new coach, not trading every potential problem on the team.

Not everybody wins 2 cups in 2 years. The Penguins aren't like other teams, they've had an absurd amount of success. Coaches having short shelf lives is irrelevant to the fact that firing Sullivan at this point would be a huge red flag of "win immediately or you'll get canned". Why would any coach want such a risky position?

Firing the coach isn't some magic bullet like some people here think. If you fire Sullivan anytime soon, you won't get a better replacement than someone like Hakstol or Johnston. I guarantee it. No coach worth a damn will ever want to go to a team with a coach-killing core and a "win now or GTFO" mentality. Your only option for getting rid of Sullivan and getting a good alternative is to let him walk after next year.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Not everybody wins 2 cups in 2 years. The Penguins aren't like other teams, they've had an absurd amount of success. Coaches having short shelf lives is irrelevant to the fact that firing Sullivan at this point would be a huge red flag of "win immediately or you'll get canned". Why would any coach want such a risky position?

Firing the coach isn't some magic bullet like some people here think. If you fire Sullivan anytime soon, you won't get a better replacement than someone like Hakstol or Johnston. I guarantee it. No coach worth a damn will ever want to go to a team with a coach-killing core and a "win now or GTFO" mentality. Your only option for getting rid of Sullivan and getting a good alternative is to let him walk after next year.

Because that's the nature of the job if you're coaching for a contender? If they want no pressure, they can go coach a rebuilding team. People want to trade this entire roster because we got swept this year, but somehow coaches are immune for the same lack of results? I don't get it.

 

[Peat]

I might bicker on the fine detail of Kessel vs Sid/Geno in terms of how much they fall in line, but on the basic details Brother Lin is correct. Sully needs to get that room's buy in, it doesn't matter how, and if he doesn't do it quick he's dead meat. Or should be. Last season, last season was very tough in terms of fatigue and injuries. This season... still tough, but there's things that should be somewhat in the coach's control that weren't. It's fix or fire time. It's ruthless and may reflect poorly on the org and the players, but it beats the alternative.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Because that's the nature of the job if you're coaching for a contender? If they want no pressure, they can go coach a rebuilding team. People want to trade this entire roster because we got swept this year, but somehow coaches are immune for the same lack of results? I don't get it.

No, it's the nature of the job according to the morphed view Penguins fans have. Go look at other top teams and check how often they fire their coaches.

If the Penguins fire Sullivan, that will be the 4th new coach in 6 years for the Penguins. How many other contenders do you think have gone through coaches like that? Not only that, but how many contenders have won multiple cups and gone through coaches like that? Firing your coach every 3 years isn't something that other teams do.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Crosby - No issues with effort, puts up 100 points
Guentzel - No issues with effort, puts up 40 goals
Hornqvist - No issues with effort, despite being thrown all over hell and back
Rust - No issues with effort, see Hornqvist.
Cullen - No issues with effort, is 40+ years old
Simon - No issues with effort, see Hornqvist/Rust
ZAR - No issues with effort
Wilson - No issues with effort

Schultz - No issues with effort
Gudbranson - No issues with effort
Pettersson - No issues with effort
Johnson - No issues with effort (not sure what you classify his playing as, but I think he's trying)
Dumoulin - No issues with effort

Clearly Sully is a piss poor bench boss who just doesn't get it. Let's take our stance on the evidence provided by three players who have no histories of tempers (Geno, Phil, Letang).... I mean, wow. I don't know who people think can possibly make oil and water (Phil and Geno) go together. Aerospace engineers can't even figure that one out (which is why pre-flight checks are still a thing). Damn a coach for not making the impossible - possible. Fire him and bring someone else.

And yet, Hornqvist and Sid refuse to play together despite the fact that the line looks good when they do. Crosby has problems with dictating who gets to play on his line. Malkin gets blasted in the media for airing dirty laundry between the blueliners and his line. Phil is Phil. The third line is still a mess, Malkin can't get any help to save his soul (and gets blasted by the organization)... It's not as simple as whether or not the players are trying hard.

They're generally speaking, trying really hard, but nobody's on the same page, the d-pairings are atrocious and actively drag Malkin's line down, so on and so forth. Our lines do nothing to exploit our opponents, our play style does nothing to exploit our roster, and we're basically just living and dying based on the play of three superstars. Something's off, and it's not all Phil Kessel.

 

[HandshakeLine]

No, it's the nature of the job according to the morphed view Penguins fans have. Go look at other top teams and check how often they fire their coaches.

If the Penguins fire Sullivan, that will be the 4th new coach in 6 years for the Penguins. How many other contenders do you think have gone through coaches like that? Not only that, but how many contenders have won multiple cups and gone through coaches like that? Firing your coach every 3 years isn't something that other teams do.

According to Business Insider, the median length for tenure in the NHL is three seasons. I'm multi-tasking with editing an article right now, so I don't have the time to run the numbers- maybe Peat or someone better at that can take a stab at it.

That said, Mike Johnston was clearly a mistake, so it's silly to think about his hire as being held against the Pens. And as for Bylsma, a fundamental question is-- how much failure should the Pens tolerate for their coaches? Do you need to fail for 4 years running to get canned, especially since our window is starting to close?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

JR has done Sullivan zero favors. He knows his system is built on a mobile, puck moving blue line and JR built it the opposite way..

Ok then...

It’s been the biggest issue facing this team since Daley left and Kessel being moved for a Zucker type won’t solve that.

 

[K Fleur]

No, it's the nature of the job according to the morphed view Penguins fans have. Go look at other top teams and check how often they fire their coaches.

If the Penguins fire Sullivan, that will be the 4th new coach in 6 years for the Penguins. How many other contenders do you think have gone through coaches like that? Not only that, but how many contenders have won multiple cups and gone through coaches like that? Firing your coach every 3 years isn't something that other teams do.

NHL coaches don’t last very long with teams these days.

The NHL has fired more coaches in the last 10 years than the NBA, NFL, or MLB

NFL head coaches have good job security when compared to other major sports leagues

 

[HandshakeLine]

JR has done Sullivan zero favors. He knows his system is built on a mobile, puck moving blue line and JR built it the opposite way..

Ok then...

It’s been the biggest issue facing this team since Daley left and Kessel being moved for a Zucker type won’t solve that.

That's a different issue too, Jiggy. And if Sully's going to the FO and asking for more puckmoving blueliners and getting Jack "The Great White Disappointment " Johnson, then that's the root of the problems and ownership needs to do something about it.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Based on Sully's system/style and what we've won with while he's been coaching, and the moves JR has made since big bad Tom Wilson made him lose his mind in 2017, it's like JR and Sully don't meet whatsoever when it comes to acquisitions.

Again, I'm fine with firing Sully under the pretense that he's lost the room. But I don't think it's worth tossing a good coach and opening up the possibility that we get another Bylsma, Johnston, Hakstol, Desjardins, etc. A bad coach will undo a good roster, 100% of the time. We're not exactly a good team either, so a bad coach with this roster (and GM) is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Empoleon8771]

According to Business Insider, the median length for tenure in the NHL is three seasons. I'm multi-tasking with editing an article right now, so I don't have the time to run the numbers- maybe Peat or someone better at that can take a stab at it.

That said, Mike Johnston was clearly a mistake, so it's silly to think about his hire as being held against the Pens. And as for Bylsma, a fundamental question is-- how much failure should the Pens tolerate for their coaches? Do you need to fail for 4 years running to get canned, especially since our window is starting to close?

But again, we're taking about a team who won 2 Stanley Cups. We're not talking about the average team, we're talking about the most successful team in the salary cap era. We're talking about a team who hasn't missed the playoffs since 2006. We're talking about a team that has won more than an entire cup run's worth of games in the playoffs over that window more than the next best team (Penguins at 97 wins, Boston 2nd at 79 wins). They're not the average team.

Mike Sullivan has coaches the Penguins to the 3rd best record in all of hockey since he became the head coach, only after Tampa and Washington. The Penguins have averaged about 105 points per season with Sullivan as the coach. They've played in the most playoff games of any team in the last 4 years and have the best winning% in the playoffs of any team, even with them getting swept this year. They have won 2 cups with Sullivan. If you fire Sullivan anytime this season, not a single good coach will want to come here with what Sullivan has done as the Penguins coach. There is not a coach out there that looks at Sullivan's resume and thinks "this is a safe job for me to take". Taking the Penguins head coaching job after Sullivan got fired is basically begging to get fired within a year and a half.

NHL coaches don’t last very long with teams these days.

The NHL has fired more coaches in the last 10 years than the NBA, NFL, or MLB

NFL head coaches have good job security when compared to other major sports leagues

Don't compare the Penguins to the average, compare the Penguins to comparable teams to the Penguins. How often have the Patriots changed coaches? How often has Golden State changed coaches (when they were good)? Because those are the teams that you should be comparing the Penguins to.

 

[Peat]

According to Business Insider, the median length for tenure in the NHL is three seasons. I'm multi-tasking with editing an article right now, so I don't have the time to run the numbers- maybe Peat or someone better at that can take a stab at it.

That said, Mike Johnston was clearly a mistake, so it's silly to think about his hire as being held against the Pens. And as for Bylsma, a fundamental question is-- how much failure should the Pens tolerate for their coaches? Do you need to fail for 4 years running to get canned, especially since our window is starting to close?

This is the current top 10 most tenured coaches in the NHL... or was when Q was fired. Edmonton and Philadelphia have both fired coaches in that time so Sully's probably in the top 10 by now.

 

[molon labe]

And yet, Hornqvist and Sid refuse to play together despite the fact that the line looks good when they do. Crosby has problems with dictating who gets to play on his line. Malkin gets blasted in the media for airing dirty laundry between the blueliners and his line. Phil is Phil. The third line is still a mess, Malkin can't get any help to save his soul (and gets blasted by the organization)... It's not as simple as whether or not the players are trying hard.

They're generally speaking, trying really hard, but nobody's on the same page, the d-pairings are atrocious and actively drag Malkin's line down, so on and so forth. Our lines do nothing to exploit our opponents, our play style does nothing to exploit our roster, and we're basically just living and dying based on the play of three superstars. Something's off, and it's not all Phil Kessel.

The line looked fine without Hornqvist. Sid managed 100 points this year and Guentzel 40 goals. I won't argue that they're beastly in the playoffs, but it would have made no difference against the Islanders.

Malkin gets no help? What's with the apologist attitude for him? He plays with Phil - who by everyone's interpretation is a ppg, borderline-elite winger. Why is Sid lauded for his linemates, who before Guentzel sprung onto the scene like the Kool-Aid man were relatively young unknowns; but poor-poor Geno is given the scraps of Phil Kessel. What is that argument even meant to accomplish?

As for who plays behind them, sure - Geno gets a horrible Johnson and an off-year Schultz. Does that change his stupid drop pass to Phil, even slightly? How about Phil's inability to receive a pass? Or Phil's inability to one-time a puck? Phil's inability to play along the boards? They're completely inadequate for each other... so you want to blame Sully for not getting the most out of Phil by putting him on the third line? The dude (grown man) pouted every time he was down there. It's nothing but excuses when the simple logic is that Phil doesn't work on this team anymore - and no coach is going to fix that. I'm not pointing one finger at Sully for trying to make him work with Sid, when he clearly doesn't need him up there (why mess with a good thing? That line was better than every other line they played this year). Phil doesn't work with Geno... so that leaves him on the third line. If Phil doesn't like it there, seeya.

 

[K Fleur]

Babcock should serve as a cautionary tale of getting to enameled with a coach’s past success.

That dude is just Dan Bylsma but with the Canadian hype machine behind him. Actually Bylsma has won a playoff series more recently than Babcock.

 

[Pens1566]

But again, we're taking about a team who won 2 Stanley Cups. We're not talking about the average team, we're talking about the most successful team in the salary cap era. We're talking about a team who hasn't missed the playoffs since 2006. We're talking about a team that has won more than an entire cup run's worth of games in the playoffs over that window more than the next best team (Penguins at 97 wins, Boston 2nd at 79 wins). They're not the average team.

Mike Sullivan has coaches the Penguins to the 3rd best record in all of hockey since he became the head coach, only after Tampa and Washington. The Penguins have averaged about 105 points per season with Sullivan as the coach. They've played in the most playoff games of any team in the last 4 years and have the best winning% in the playoffs of any team, even with them getting swept this year. They have won 2 cups with Sullivan. If you fire Sullivan anytime this season, not a single good coach will want to come here with what Sullivan has done as the Penguins coach. There is not a coach out there that looks at Sullivan's resume and thinks "this is a safe job for me to take". Taking the Penguins head coaching job after Sullivan got fired is basically begging to get fired within a year and a half.



Don't compare the Penguins to the average, compare the Penguins to comparable teams to the Penguins. How often have the Patriots changed coaches? How often has Golden State changed coaches (when they were good)? Because those are the teams that you should be comparing the Penguins to.

The examples you listed ... are still winning.