Kessel Vetoed trade to Wild

[Peat]

Because it literally says he's stuck between them. Like right there. In black and white.

That doesn't leave a clear unambiguous statement that either side was using Geno as a go-between. Could simply be there's a ton of arguments between Sully and Phil over what should be happening on ice and Geno can't avoid them as its his line.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

I have genuinely no clue what you're trying to say or how you think that refutes what I've said.

You can paint that as Sullivan "not doing his job" just like you can paint that as Kessel "being a selfish locker room cancer who's not taking into consideration what his actions are doing for his teammates". The truth is probably both.

It sure seems to me that Sullivan is refusing to communicate his issues with Kessel and it's harming Geno. Remember how people worried about this happening when Tocchet left? Seems it's exactly what's happening.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It sure seems to me that Sullivan is refusing to communicate his issues with Kessel and it's harming Geno. Remember how people worried about this happening when Tocchet left? Seems it's exactly what's happening.

Or you can read it as Kessel is refusing to listen to Sullivan, which wouldn't be the first time he has done that with a coach, and that's harming Malkin and Sullivan is trying to get through to him.

The point is that they're both at fault, Sullivan for being a hard ass about how players have to be and Kessel for being selfish and refusing to consider how his actions impact his teammates.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

Or you can read it as Kessel is refusing to listen to Sullivan, which wouldn't be the first time he has done that with a coach, and that's harming Malkin and Sullivan is trying to get through to him.

The point is that they're both at fault, Sullivan for being a hard ass about how players have to be and Kessel for being selfish and refusing to consider how his actions impact his teammates.

In the end he's the coach. He's supposed to make it work. Instead Phil is being forced out because he refuses to, just like another successful player that was vital to the Penguins that Sullivan didn't like because???: Ian Cole.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Let's make an analogy, let's say there's a 16 year old kid and his mom freaks out over the absolute smallest of things, just because he's not an amazing and perfect kid. Every time he does something that his mom doesn't like, his 8 year old sister breaks down into tears from the yelling. His mom is absolutely unreasonable, but if the kid continues to go out of his way to do things that he knows she won't like, he's an ass. He's an ass because he's causing his 8 year old sister to freak out just because he refuses to listen.

That's what the Sullivan-Kessel-Malkin dynamic is like here. Sullivan is the biggest aggressor because he's supposed to be the coach and is supposed to be able to mediate these kind of things, but Kessel is being a problem by intentionally not listening to him.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

I'll just leave this quote from a source within the organization from that same article:

“You hear that he (Sullivan) gets a little controlling, and that would sure be an example of him trying to control a problem that probably doesn’t exist,” a source said. “I think he (Sullivan) is a really good coach. But he could change some things and be even better. A coach with his tone is going to do better with players like they have in Pittsburgh if he doesn’t try to control everything.”

Sure sounds like Sullivan just needs to adjust to his players, not the other way around.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

So we are just discovering that Kessel is a mostly one dimensional (albeit one of the best in the world at that one dimensional) streaky moody star player that needs to be managed properly?

How does that differ from the player we traded Toronto for?

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

So we are just discovering that Kessel is a mostly one dimensional (albeit one of the best in the world at that one dimensional) streaky moody star player that needs to be managed properly?

How does that differ from the player we traded Toronto for?

It doesn't. But the GM messed up the team so badly that he needs to shed payroll and it's the easiest way. Instead of admitting mistakes and trying to improve the defense by getting rid of Johnson and Gudbranson (who by the way are one dimensional and really poorly one dimensional and cost more against the Cap than Kessel) he's trying to drive a successful player out of town.

 

[Peat]

So we are just discovering that Kessel is a mostly one dimensional (albeit one of the best in the world at that one dimensional) streaky moody star player that needs to be managed properly?

How does that differ from the player we traded Toronto for?

It doesn't.

Just then we needed that player and thought we could use that player, and now we don't need the player as much and have discovered problems using him with our players.

Well, that and the personality issues. The personality issues are pretty big and maybe the org would ignore the above without them.

But they shouldn't. Strip the drama away and do the cold maths and that one dimension doesn't really do a whole lot for the top 6.

 

[Tom Hanks]

The title of this thread reads

“Kessel DeVito goes wild”

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

Everyone crows about Phil being traded twice but look at those trades and when they happened. The Boston trade was part of a large restructure by Peter Chiarelli and it only came AFTER he was offered a contract extension and declined. The Maple Leafs trade was because they committed to a rebuild. The Penguins are doing it because... well... their coach is a hard headed clone of his old mentor who won't adjust to a players personality and work with them?

 

[ChaosAgent]

It doesn't.

Just then we needed that player and thought we could use that player, and now we don't need the player as much and have discovered problems using him with our players.

Well, that and the personality issues. The personality issues are pretty big and maybe the org would ignore the above without them.

But they shouldn't. Strip the drama away and do the cold maths and that one dimension doesn't really do a whole lot for the top 6.

I think once hockey analytics finally go mainstream (and improve in the process), history is not going to be kind to one-dimensional players like Phil in the modern NHL. Aside from the truly great ones like Ovechkin and Kane.

But thanks for your help in 2016, Phil. Seriously.

 

[edog37]

It doesn't. But the GM messed up the team so badly that he needs to shed payroll and it's the easiest way. Instead of admitting mistakes and trying to improve the defense by getting rid of Johnson and Gudbranson (who by the way are one dimensional and really poorly one dimensional and cost more against the Cap than Kessel) he's trying to drive a successful player out of town.

and how do you propose to get rid of Johnson exactly? What team is going to take the contract on?

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think once hockey analytics finally go mainstream (and improve in the process), history is not going to be kind to one-dimensional players like Phil in the modern NHL. Aside from the truly great ones like Ovechkin and Kane.

But thanks for your help in 2016, Phil. Seriously.

As long as powerplays exist guys like Phil will have a valuable place in the NHL.

 

[edog37]

Everyone crows about Phil being traded twice but look at those trades and when they happened. The Boston trade was part of a large restructure by Peter Chiarelli and it only came AFTER he was offered a contract extension and declined. The Maple Leafs trade was because they committed to a rebuild. The Penguins are doing it because... well... their coach is a hard headed clone of his old mentor who won't adjust to a players personality and work with them?

Kessel has had issues since he came into the league. To think otherwise is disingenuous. He's a lightning rod wherever he goes & has a shelf accordingly.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You don't have the coach killing reputation Kessel has had since the USNTDP without deserving that reputation. If you don't want to look at Kessel getting traded, you should look at Kessel being left off of teams like the USA WCoH team in 2016.

 

[Peat]

As long as powerplays exist guys like Phil will have a valuable place in the NHL.

There'll definitely be a need for such players, and an even bigger want. The biggest threat to guys like Phil is that 16 year old guys like Phil are going to take a long sober look at where the game is going and where Kaliyev got drafted - or at their 16 year old buddies who want to be Sid and are making them look bad - and start reforming themselves. There's always going to be offence first guys. but they won't be as offence first as the generation currently in the NHL.

And part of me finds that sad, but that's the way of the world.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Jesus Christ I just read that thing on kessel on thescore app.

What the f*** is wrong with this team. If you want him gone then the 5 teams they don't want to move him to, move him there. If he's supposedly such a bad influence on and off the ice, wouldn't you want your enemies to have that infect them? Of course.

So obviously it's bullshit.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

It doesn't. But the GM messed up the team so badly that he needs to shed payroll and it's the easiest way. Instead of admitting mistakes and trying to improve the defense by getting rid of Johnson and Gudbranson (who by the way are one dimensional and really poorly one dimensional and cost more against the Cap than Kessel) he's trying to drive a successful player out of town.

"So badly" is an exaggeration better left for the Facebook Penguins fans.

 

[Beauner]

You don't have the coach killing reputation Kessel has had since the USNTDP without deserving that reputation. If you don't want to look at Kessel getting traded, you should look at Kessel being left off of teams like the USA WCoH team in 2016.

Yeah this isn't anything new. Just because the honeymoon phase lasted a few years (and what a great few years they were) doesn't eliminate his entire career history.

When he came here we all heard the crap from Toronto media, fans, etc. Then he got here and there was none of it. He played great, teammates loved him, no issues. Now that same stuff is creeping in again. That's like dating a girl that cheated on her last boyfriend and then being surprised when she cheats on you. You knew the deal going in....

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

You don't have the coach killing reputation Kessel has had since the USNTDP without deserving that reputation. If you don't want to look at Kessel getting traded, you should look at Kessel being left off of teams like the USA WCoH team in 2016.

Oh the 2016 World Cup of hockey? You mean the tournament where the US was absolutely embarrassed because of a lack of skill and a team building mindset of rolling four lines, half with pluggers, instead of loading up with skill like every other developed nation?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Oh the 2016 World Cup of hockey? You mean the tournament where the US was absolutely embarrassed because of a lack of skill and a team building mindset of rolling four lines, half with pluggers, instead of loading up with skill like every other developed nation?

So how is that exactly relevant to Kessel being left off of that team due to his reputation? The argument that they made a bad decision or the team was bad is pretty irrelevant from the fact that Kessel was left off of a national team right after having a Conn Smythe worthy cup run. The point was that Kessel has a well established reputation of being a problem for coaches, and him getting left off a national team is a perfect example of that.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's a duck.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

So how is that exactly relevant to Kessel being left off of that team due to his reputation? The argument that they made a bad decision or the team was bad is pretty irrelevant from the fact that Kessel was left off of a national team right after having a Conn Smythe worthy cup run. The point was that Kessel has a well established reputation of being a problem for coaches, and him getting left off a national team is a perfect example of that.

Because people roundly criticized their mindset heading in to the tournament, that leaving off a skill player specifically like Phil would hurt them. History proves them correct.

It’s cutting off your nose to spite your face, the same thing these articles and desire to trade this guy have in common with the 2016 World Cup of Hockey Team USA.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Because people roundly criticized their mindset heading in to the tournament, that leaving off a skill player specifically like Phil would hurt them. History proves them correct.

Yet we're not talking about people, stay on topic. We're talking about Kessel's reputation with coaches. You saying "fans thought they made a mistake and they sucked in that tournament" is entirely irrelevant here, because the discussion is Kessel's reputation among GMs and coaches. The discussion here isn't what you or other fans think, it's what coaches and GMs think. And what they think is that Kessel's an offensively gifted winger who has serious flaws in his game and has a well deserved reputation for being a headache for coaches.

 

[Peat]

Yet we're not talking about people, stay on topic. We're talking about Kessel's reputation with coaches. You saying "fans thought they made a mistake and they sucked in that tournament" is entirely irrelevant here, because the discussion is Kessel's reputation among GMs and coaches. The discussion here isn't what you or other fans think, it's what coaches and GMs think. And what they think is that Kessel's an offensively gifted winger who has serious flaws in his game and has a well deserved reputation for being a headache for coaches.

If anything, its relevance lies in the fact that if it was a clear mistake but the coach did anyway, then all the more reason to believe that he has a poor reputation with quite a lot of coaches.

Hell, that's always been the key question behind a lot of these type of comments/beliefs on Kessel's history - "If rational behaviour dictates putting a very high value on a player of his talent, but people capable of rational behaviour on similar decisions in the field do not, then what is going on?"