Kessel Vetoed trade to Wild

[ZeroPucksGiven]

So how is that exactly relevant to Kessel being left off of that team due to his reputation? The argument that they made a bad decision or the team was bad is pretty irrelevant from the fact that Kessel was left off of a national team right after having a Conn Smythe worthy cup run. The point was that Kessel has a well established reputation of being a problem for coaches, and him getting left off a national team is a perfect example of that.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's a duck.

You mean the team that was coached by a neanderthal and Kessel had a major role in eliminating that coach's team a few months earlier?
The same coach who called that players' team "arrogant"?

I mean I don't disagree that Kessel can be frustrating for coaches, but Torts leaving one of the best (if not the best) American players at home was a perfect example of cutting your nose off

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Yeah this isn't anything new. Just because the honeymoon phase lasted a few years (and what a great few years they were) doesn't eliminate his entire career history.

When he came here we all heard the crap from Toronto media, fans, etc. Then he got here and there was none of it. He played great, teammates loved him, no issues. Now that same stuff is creeping in again. That's like dating a girl that cheated on her last boyfriend and then being surprised when she cheats on you. You knew the deal going in....

I don't know if it's the same thing here. There were no issues for 2yrs. Then Tocchet leaves and suddenly we have a culture issue again. Something that is an issue that has come up before and during Kessels tenure here. People want to blame him, fine. But don't f***ing act like the leadership group isn't shit. This team has "culture" issues every few years and blames the not in crowd each time.

There's rumours he wants to play for Tocchet again. Which tells me a f*** ton to be honest.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

Yet we're not talking about people, stay on topic. We're talking about Kessel's reputation with coaches. You saying "fans thought they made a mistake and they sucked in that tournament" is entirely irrelevant here, because the discussion is Kessel's reputation among GMs and coaches. The discussion here isn't what you or other fans think, it's what coaches and GMs think. And what they think is that Kessel's an offensively gifted winger who has serious flaws in his game and has a well deserved reputation for being a headache for coaches.

Being left off of the World Cup of Hockey roster was brought up. History has proven that they needed him. To say he was left off for a reason is true: the reason was terrible management from Team USA's head. Not exactly furthering the cause you're trumpeting.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You mean the team that was coached by a neanderthal and Kessel had a major role in eliminating that coach's team a few months earlier?
The same coach who called that players' team "arrogant"?

I mean I don't disagree that Kessel can be frustrating for coaches, but Torts leaving one of the best (if not the best) American players at home was a perfect example of cutting your nose off

Isn't that kinda the point I'm making? The point I'm making is that teams making those bad decisions, the decisions that defy reason and actively hurt their teams, is evidence of Kessel having this reputation. I like to assume that a national team head coach would set aside his professional team grudges to make the best team for his country, so to me, that's just evidence of the reputation Kessel has.

Being left off of the World Cup of Hockey roster was brought up. History has proven that they needed him. To say he was left off for a reason is true: the reason was terrible management from Team USA's head. Not exactly furthering the cause you're trumpeting.

Honest question, are you even reading the posts you're replying to? The point I'm making is that Kessel has a bad reputation among coaches and GMs, and him getting left off of a national team he deserved to make is a great support point for that. You're just repeating "LOL IT WAS A BAD DECISION!!!!!!" as if that somehow refutes my claim.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

If anything, its relevance lies in the fact that if it was a clear mistake but the coach did anyway, then all the more reason to believe that he has a poor reputation with quite a lot of coaches.

Look who left him off: John Tortorella.

Look at this comment from Rossi's article about his protege, Mike Sullivan:

“You hear that he (Sullivan) gets a little controlling, and that would sure be an example of him trying to control a problem that probably doesn’t exist,” a source said. “I think he (Sullivan) is a really good coach. But he could change some things and be even better. A coach with his tone is going to do better with players like they have in Pittsburgh if he doesn’t try to control everything.”

Maybe, just maybe, the problem wasn't the player.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

Honest question, are you even reading the posts you're replying to?

Isn't that kinda the point I'm making?

You don't seem to be making a clear point is my guess. Or you're not as clear as you think you are.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I just honestly don't get the angle some are taking in here. Do people seriously not think that Kessel has a widely negative reputation league-wide among coaches and managers? Kessel was in the NHL for I think 8 or 9 years before he was in Pittsburgh and his reputation as being a problem for coaches even predates him being in the NHL. You heard this before he was even drafted.

You don't seem to be making a clear point is my guess. Or you're not as clear as you think you are.

You don't have the coach killing reputation Kessel has had since the USNTDP without deserving that reputation. If you don't want to look at Kessel getting traded, you should look at Kessel being left off of teams like the USA WCoH team in 2016.

If you'd read the posts you were replying to, you would have picked this up immediately. Instead, you just tried to say that Kessel being left off of the 2016 WCoH team was a bad decision, as if that's at all relevant to the point.

 

[Beauner]

Look who left him off: John Tortorella.

Look at this comment from Rossi's article about his protege, Mike Sullivan:



Maybe, just maybe, the problem wasn't the player.

Then why is Kessel the only one with an issue? There has been 0 indication anyone else has had an issue with Sullivan. What's more likely, the coach has lost the entire room and they're focusing on 1 player? Or the guy who has already worn out his welcome in 2 cities has done the same here.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

Then why is Kessel the only one with an issue? There has been 0 indication anyone else has had in issue with Sullivan. What's more likely, the coach has lost the entire room and they're focusing on 1 player? Or the guy who has already worn out his welcome in 2 cities has done the same here.

Ian Cole would like to have a word with you.

 

[Beauner]

Ian Cole would like to have a word with you.

I mean on the current roster

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

If you'd read the posts you were replying to, you would have picked this up immediately. Instead, you just tried to say that Kessel being left off of the 2016 WCoH team was a bad decision, as if that's at all relevant to the point.

I did. And I countered it by saying that his being left off of the WCOH squad was based on inept and stupid management when you use it as a prime example of him not being liked. It's fine that he's not liked, but it just proves how stupid and inept they are. And history proved they needed him. So basically it wasn't your best example if you're trying to prove something.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

I mean on the current roster

Well we also have Ryan Reaves as an example. He was not played because Sullivan didn't want him (which is actually good, don't get me wrong). Oh and Daniel Sprong. So there's four people. One of which is still on the roster because he has control. Otherwise Sullivan would have gotten rid of four people he didn't like because he refuses to budge at all in terms of his coaching style to work with them.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Ian Cole would like to have a word with you.

I get the sense that a lot of players do but don't want to rock the boat. Malkin didn't look like he agreed with a lot of what Sullivan has to say as well.

 

[Peat]

Eh, plenty of evidence that Sully can be an abrasive demanding guy who lets personality clashes grow bigger than they should be.

Also plenty of evidence that Kessel has a reputation for being a pain in the butt for a coach and having merited that reputation.

 

[ChaosAgent]

As long as powerplays exist guys like Phil will have a valuable place in the NHL.

Depends on how good you think he truly is there. I think he's above average but the point totals on the PP here (because he takes up the space of 2 players on his side) overstate how good he is. Look at Toronto's PP numbers when he was there. Not that great.

Someone like Ovi? That's different. The entire threat of their PP is predicated on him.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Isn't that kinda the point I'm making? The point I'm making is that teams making those bad decisions, the decisions that defy reason and actively hurt their teams, is evidence of Kessel having this reputation. I like to assume that a national team head coach would set aside his professional team grudges to make the best team for his country, so to me, that's just evidence of the reputation Kessel has.



Honest question, are you even reading the posts you're replying to? The point I'm making is that Kessel has a bad reputation among coaches and GMs, and him getting left off of a national team he deserved to make is a great support point for that. You're just repeating "LOL IT WAS A BAD DECISION!!!!!!" as if that somehow refutes my claim.

If Team USA would've looked like it had a pulse or looked competitive, then yes I'd believe that Torts made the best decision without personal bias.

But their performance was a national embarrassment. The coach intentionally left his .50 cal at home and chose instead to bring a baseball bat and some brass knuckles to a battlefield and justifiably got smoked

 

[Jobeycool]

Kessel helped the Pens win 2 Stanley Cups and no one was complaining about Him back then...He is a hard guy to trade away because the deal has to fit with what Kessel can do....Quite frankly Kessel would fit real good now back on Toronto because all the good players they have...Canadians fan base now is so ridiculous ignorant in the NHL they tried to turn Kessel into a Crosby...Cone on Pens fans let’s not become as ridiculous as that...

 

[Empoleon8771]

Kessel helped the Pens win 2 Stanley Cups and no one was complaining about Him back then...He is a hard guy to trade away because the deal has to fit with what Kessel can do....Quite frankly Kessel would fit real good now back on Toronto because all the good players they have...Canadians fan base now is so ridiculous ignorant in the NHL they tried to turn Kessel into a Crosby...

Huh, I didn't know @Andy99 had a second account

If Team USA would've looked like it had a pulse or looked competitive, then yes I'd believe that Torts made the best decision without personal bias.

But their performance was a national embarrassment. The coach intentionally left his .50 cal at home and chose instead to bring a baseball bat and some brass knuckles to a battlefield and justifiably got smoked

Eh, I think it's pretty hindsight-y to say that a decision was bias-driven because the results were bad.

 

[Andy99]

Huh, I didn't know @Andy99 had a second account



Eh, I think it's pretty hindsight-y to say that a decision was bias-driven because the results were bad.

What? I’ve never absolved Phil for his play, nor have I castigated him...I’ve said many times I think it’s a good idea to trade him—not because of some bs “room” argument but because of his age and inconsistent fit with Sid and G...the return has to be right, and I’m in favor of a futures return too...I’m not sure how you’re lumping me in with what this guy is saying...

 

[Empoleon8771]

What? I’ve never absolved Phil for his play, nor have I castigated him...I’ve said many times I think it’s a good idea to trade him—not because of some bs “room” argument but because of his age and inconsistent fit with Sid and G...the return has to be right, and I’m in favor of a futures return too...I’m not sure how you’re lumping me in with what this guy is saying...

No it was a joke because that post had similar formatting to your posts. It was the .... after sentences that made me think that. I didn't mean the content there

 

[Jobeycool]

Got to have 4 solid lines in today’s NHL...Pens only have 2 and half the time Malkin line is way over used....Now the 3rd line has seen slight improvement...For goodness sakes the scrubs on the 4rth line really all belong in the AHL....and Cullen needs to retire all ready..Hornquist is shot with far to many concussions.....turned into a young mans game I’m afraid..

 

[Andy99]

No it was a joke because that post had similar formatting to your posts. It was the .... after sentences that made me think that. I didn't mean the content there

Ellipses man....lol...some of us love them more than our significant others....

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

Eh, I think it's pretty hindsight-y to say that a decision was bias-driven because the results were bad.

There's nothing hindsight about it. Leaving Kessel, and his skill, was roundly criticized from the start.

Team USA's Awful World Cup of Hockey Blueprint Behind Embarrassing Exit

The early exit has already prompted waves of criticism against USA Hockey, and for good reason. The team was built on a faulty blueprint, took the wrong coach and left too many of the right players at home. Do that and then lose in embarrassing fashion and anger is an inevitable result.

Team USA brass accepts blame for World Cup of Hockey failure | The Star

Team USA entered the tournament brimming with confidence that it was the Americans’ time to win, but has since been criticized for being misguided with player selection in the debate about “skill vs. grit.”

Chris Chelios Explains What The Americans Did Wrong In World Cup Of Hockey

General manager Dean Lombardi and his staff with Brian Burke and Paul Holmgren have been ripped for trying to repeat the win at the 1996 World Cup of Hockey with a blueprint that doesn't work 20 years later. With words like grit, grind, blue collar and sandpaper as calling cards, the most skilled American team was not assembled. A team built to wear down the Canadians supposedly was, but instead of grinding down the Canadians the Americans created a worse talent gap.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Eh, I think it's pretty hindsight-y to say that a decision was bias-driven because the results were bad.

Let's put it into context of the Pens

What Torts did was akin to choosing Bleuger over Sidney Crosby for a hockey tournament.

You don't think having one of your best players impacted the team looking bad?
That's not hindsight or confirmation bias, that's a flat out fact

 

[Empoleon8771]

There's nothing hindsight about it. Leaving Kessel, and his skill, was roundly criticized from the start.

Team USA's Awful World Cup of Hockey Blueprint Behind Embarrassing Exit



Team USA brass accepts blame for World Cup of Hockey failure | The Star



Chris Chelios Explains What The Americans Did Wrong In World Cup Of Hockey

I'll ask again, are you even reading the posts you're replying to? You're ignoring the entire point of what I'm saying even though I've explained it a ton of times. Don't reply to me if you're going to act this dense