Kessel Vetoed trade to Wild

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Empoleon8771

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Aug 25, 2015
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Let's put it into context of the Pens

What Torts did was akin to choosing Bleuger over Sidney Crosby for a hockey tournament.

You don't think having one of your best players impacted the team looking bad?
That's not hindsight or confirmation bias, that's a flat out fact

No, where did I ever say that? Where did I ever remotely say that not picking Kessel for that team was a good decision? I said it's completely hindsight to say that Kessel being left off of team USA was because of a grudge since they lost like they did, because that's a nonsensical argument. The conclusion doesn't follow the argument, it's a completely logical jump. It makes as much sense as saying leaving Stastny off the roster was driven because of a grudge since team USA sucked.

I swear, some people just jump into arguments without actually reading them. This discussion was about the reputation Kessel has among coaches and GMs. I cited Kessel getting left off of that team as a piece of evidence that he has a bad reputation among other GMs and coaches. Pointing out how bad of a decision it was isn't a rebuttal to that.
 

Pens1566

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Aug 2, 2005
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Eh, all the discussion at the time was that the team/management wanted to play a grinding, gritty game. There was nothing that I recall about it being related to anything to do with Phil's "rep".
 

ZeroPucksGiven

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Feb 28, 2017
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No, where did I ever say that? Where did I ever remotely say that not picking Kessel for that team was a good decision? I said it's completely hindsight to say that Kessel being left off of team USA was because of a grudge since they lost like they did, because that's a nonsensical argument. The conclusion doesn't follow the argument, it's a completely logical jump. It makes as much sense as saying leaving Stastny off the roster was driven because of a grudge since team USA sucked.

I swear, some people just jump into arguments without actually reading them. This discussion was about the reputation Kessel has among coaches and GMs. I cited Kessel getting left off of that team as a piece of evidence that he has a bad reputation among other GMs and coaches. Pointing out how bad of a decision it was isn't a rebuttal to that.

I'm providing evidence that Torts leaving Phil off the team was less about "coaching conflict" and more about the coach in question wanting to play a particular style or leaving him off due to spite
 
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Empoleon8771

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I'm providing evidence that Torts leaving Phil off the team was less about "coaching conflict" and more about the coach in question wanting to play a particular style or leaving him off due to spite

I suppose this is fair, although considering the playoff run he just had, I have questions for why the rest of the management staff didn't tell Tortorella to suck it up.
 

Mario_is_BACK!!

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I'll ask again, are you even reading the posts you're replying to? You're ignoring the entire point of what I'm saying even though I've explained it a ton of times. Don't reply to me if you're going to act this dense

You said any outrage at Phil being left off was all in hindsight because of how they did. There was plenty of questioning beforehand. I'm reading perfectly fine, thanks.
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

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May 31, 2004
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Tortorella and Burke yes, but I'm not sure I'd consider the rest as knuckledraggers. Do you consider Lombardi, Holmgrem and Johansson that?

I consider MOST individuals in their position in the NHL that, yes. Because it's a pretty backwards, old boys club, no ideas, "back in MY day!" kinda league.

Until, of course, a team or three wins it all contrary to these hoary, out of date, caveman philosophies and they are forced to copycat. Because again... no ideas.

Two of those guys are closely associated with both the Flyers and Kings. So I super don't like them or their team building philosophies.
 

Empoleon8771

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You said any outrage at Phil being left off was all in hindsight because of how they did. There was plenty of questioning beforehand. I'm reading perfectly fine, thanks.

I literally never said that. Again, if you're going to reply to me, actually read what you're replying to. My claim was that saying "Kessel was only left off of team USA because of a grudge, based on how they did in the tournament" is hindsight. It is hindsight to point to how they did to support the idea that Kessel was only left off because of a grudge. I never said "being mad Kessel was left off the team is hindsight".

I consider MOST individuals in their position in the NHL that, yes. Because it's a pretty backwards, old boys club, no ideas, "back in MY day!" kinda league.

Until, of course, a team or three wins it all contrary to these hoary, out of date, caveman philosophies and they are forced to copycat. Because again... no ideas.

Two of those guys are closely associated with both the Flyers and Kings. So I super don't like them or their team building philosophies.

I feel like you can say that about Canada too, but they don't have that problem :dunno:
 

Mario_is_BACK!!

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I literally never said that. Again, if you're going to reply to me, actually read what you're replying to. My claim was that saying "Kessel was only left off of team USA because of a grudge, based on how they did in the tournament" is hindsight. It is hindsight to point to how they did to support the idea that Kessel was only left off because of a grudge. I never said "being mad Kessel was left off the team is hindsight".

You clearly need to make your points better because I’m not the only person here who has had trouble reading them, either that or you’re being intentionally obtuse and moving goal posts when I again counter your argument. Which has happened multiple times in this thread.

You brought up the WCOH roster and him being left off. I said based on initial reaction and history, using that as an example of any kind is a bad one because it’s proven to be a mistake because of how awful and stupid everyone looked.

So basically you’re saying it’s a prime example of coaches who don’t like him, but I’m saying it’s a prime example of people who are stupid put in positions to be in and not applicable. And any hindsight you want to drag in at all is not helping you.

Unless you’re also saying players like TJ Oshie are players coaches don’t like. Because he was left off, too.
 

Honour Over Glory

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Does anyone actually have a list of who kessel submitted as his 8 team list? If this team wants him gone so bad, thinks he's such a bad influence then why not dump him to one of those teams.
 

Mario_is_BACK!!

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Does anyone actually have a list of who kessel submitted as his 8 team list? If this team wants him gone so bad, thinks he's such a bad influence then why not dump him to one of those teams.

Continuing rumor is that it’s basically five teams in division, Phoenix and two other teams that aren’t likely. Which, if true, shows he clearly likes it here and has no problem with being here.
 

pokey10

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The revisionist history to say that Kessel wasn't horrible last year because he puts up points is staggering. He was crap last year.
Correct me if im wrong, but Kessel wassnt brought in for his stellar two way play and pk'ing. He's here for points, sure he hit a drought at the worst part of the season but 82 points @ 6m is well worth it.
 

Jaded-Fan

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Correct me if im wrong, but Kessel wassnt brought in for his stellar two way play and pk'ing. He's here for points, sure he hit a drought at the worst part of the season but 82 points @ 6m is well worth it.

It is easier to blame the guy who is doing what he is supposed to and what he always did instead of yourself for screwing up the team after two cups by some stupid size envy obsession.

Oh no, it was not chasing meatheads like Reaves and JJ that put the Pens where they are. It is all the fault of point a game Kessel who did exactly what he always did last year.

Good call JR.
 

Turin

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Feb 27, 2018
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Kessel was never as bad defensively as he was this last year. He took almost 100 less shots than he does during a good year, had a bunch of giveaways, and made everyone around him worse defensively.

He also personally disrespected the team last year when he put his iron man streak above actually getting healthy for the playoffs, and was real close to getting dealt then already. I think barring a Cup, the relationship was already over no matter what. His first year, great at the end. His second year, he probably wore a bit on the staff but it worked out. His third year, I think his end to that season soured mgmt on him.

Also they’re trying to move JJ too so this Phil vs JJ scapegoat battle is pointless.
 

YearsintheWilderness

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Jul 15, 2007
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Does anyone actually have a list of who kessel submitted as his 8 team list? If this team wants him gone so bad, thinks he's such a bad influence then why not dump him to one of those teams.

I remember hearing Bob McKenzie saying, possibly only half joking (or maybe completely serious), that Kessel could have, in effect, complete control over where he was traded by including 8 teams they would never trade him to anyway: Flyers, Bruins, Leafs, etc...
 

Big Friggin Dummy

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Feb 22, 2019
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I think the basis of Phil not waiving for Minnesota is purely on the fact that they're not a contender. He's good friends with Suter, and he's from nearby in Wisconsin, but the thought is that he's unhappy going there because of where the team currently stands. If they manage to shore some stuff up on July 1st and look to be working toward legit contention soon, there's a chance he revisits the Minnesota thing. We just have to hope it's not after Zucker's dealt, because Minnesota seems to be actively shopping him for months.

I remember hearing Bob McKenzie saying, possibly only half joking (or maybe completely serious), that Kessel could have, in effect, complete control over where he was traded by including 8 teams they would never trade him to anyway: Flyers, Bruins, Leafs, etc...
I'm sure it was completely serious. Those lists exist for two reasons; to secure a great landing spot in the event you're moved, or to essentially turn your partial NTC into a full NTC through creativity.
 

Gurglesons

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If Team USA would've looked like it had a pulse or looked competitive, then yes I'd believe that Torts made the best decision without personal bias.

But their performance was a national embarrassment. The coach intentionally left his .50 cal at home and chose instead to bring a baseball bat and some brass knuckles to a battlefield and justifiably got smoked

I mean, it was terrible. But they were trying to do something different than 2014 which also was a slight embarrassment
 
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