Ken Holland on 97.1FM right now

[Cursed Lemon]

Let me know when Nashville actually does something.

When was the last time WE did something?

 

[abbbaron]

Let me know when Nashville actually does something.

For an organization that had been around the cap floor for much (most?) of it's existence, they're sitting pretty. Let me know when Holland actually does something without the generational talent he inherited.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

bit off topic, but you'll find many ppl on this board that would give Andreas Athanasiou (#110) up for Slavin (#120).

And I'd give up #32 Landon Ferraro for #33 Ryan O'Reilly. What does that have to do with anything? A guy drafted later turned out better? Of course you'd trade the higher drafted guy for him.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

For an organization that had been around the cap floor for much (most?) of it's existence, they're sitting pretty. Let me know when Holland actually does something without the generational talent he inherited.

Sitting pretty? How many playoff rounds have they won? Three. In their entire existence. You don't get points for winning on less of a budget. If you win with 74M it is just the same as winning with 58M. Cap space is as valuable as what you can do with it. Until you do something with it... it is worthless.

 

[Frk It]

Pretty much this.

I already can read between the lines, that this is the CENTER DRAFT with our 1st overall and all possible defencemen picked on the later picks will be 99% sure long-term projects.

That's what he means.

Generally agree, although I could see any of Necas/Petterson/Mittelstadt ending up as wingers even though I like all 3 of those guys.

 

[jkutswings]

Let me know when Nashville actually does something.

So the response to trades not always coming up roses is to never make trades?

 

[Claypool]

So the response to trades not always coming up roses is to never make trades?

I believe it making smart trades, not trades for the sake of trades like so many around here apparently do.

 

[izlez]

This is such garbage being spewed by Holland. It doesn't take 5 years for other organizations. We see time and time again other NHL organizations giving young players a chance. Just because the Wings organization you need to earn your way to the team, through 2,3,4+ years in the minors does not mean that this is the formula to success. While at times being patient is key, it's complete garbage from Holland..

I guess the definition of "impact" can alter from person to person, but here are some "impact" defencemen in the league that have taken less than 5 years to improve an NHL roster:

-Jakob Chychrun. Made the NHL immediately after his draft. While not necessarily an impact D yet, he is still playing a regular NHL shift straight from the draft. Kinda ironic how we could have had Chychrun, but Holland passed...

-Zach Werenski. Made the NHL 1 year after being drafted. He is definetely an "impact" defenceman there Mr. GM. Werenski is unreal.

-Ivan Provorov. Made the NHL 1 year after being drafted. Also a great D already, not quite Werenski level, but pretty darn close.

-Brandon Carlo. Made the NHL 1 year after being drafted.

-Noah Hanifin. Made the NHL immediately after his draft. Was perhaps rushed in by Carolina, but he is still a solid top 4 NHL defenceman already.

-Aaron Ekblad. Made the NHL immediately after his draft. Has regressed a bit this year, but he is still going to be an impact D for many years to come.

-Rasmus Ristolainen. Made it straight outta the draft and struggled a bit his rookie year. He started to become a good player 1 year out of the draft, and now is entering elite level status. Was drafted less than 5 years ago.

-Seth Jones. Made it to the NHL right after his draft. Has continually progressed into a great D. Made it as an NHL All-Star before Holland's aforementioned "5 years".

-Jaccob Slavin. One of the most underrated players in the NHL. Made it before Holland's nonsensical claim.

Holland is wrong, and is stubborn, and needs to go.

"Of course young defenseman can improve the roster and be impact players. Here's a list of young players leading their team to the bottom of the standings, right in the mix with Detroit"

You really showed him

 

[jkutswings]

I believe it making smart trades, not trades for the sake of trades like so many around here apparently do.

So you're saying that, while pretty much every other team in the league was making at least an occasional smart trade, there wasn't a single one for Holland to make for 10 years?

Either he's not being realistic about making trades, or he's doing a lousy job acquiring talent.

 

[Heaton]

Let me know when Nashville actually does something.

Irrelevant based on this conversation. They needed a #1 center, they traded for Johansen. They have the defense and the goaltending, they also stole Forsberg from Washington.

The Wings have just as many needs as any bad team in the NHL and Holland has done nothing to fix it. Signing a bunch of role players isn't going to do anything and being a bubble team forever just means this team will always be irrelevant under his watch.

The Preds, like the Blues, have had the misfortune of being in the toughest division in hockey for the past 20 years. Since every single thing an organization is done is based on success, let me know when Holland actually fixes any of the teams issues now that he doesn't have Lidstrom to lean on.

 

[abbbaron]

Sitting pretty? How many playoff rounds have they won? Three. In their entire existence. You don't get points for winning on less of a budget. If you win with 74M it is just the same as winning with 58M. Cap space is as valuable as what you can do with it. Until you do something with it... it is worthless.

You missed the point completely. Do you really think Poile wanted to penny-pinch all those years? The guy had to build that club from the ground up on a shoestring budget; Holland on the other hand was dealt the strongest hand of any GM in the modern era, and Lidstrom's retirement (among other developments) has exposed him as an imposter.

How one manages their respective resources is a pretty good measure of how good that manager is. As Babcock used to say, "what have you done for me lately?" Poile has his club winning playoff series and well positioned to contend for the next while. How have things in Detroit been? Just a couple pieces away from contending again are we?

 

[izlez]

So you're saying that, while pretty much every other team in the league was making at least an occasional smart trade, there wasn't a single one for Holland to make for 10 years?

Either he's not being realistic about making trades, or he's doing a lousy job acquiring talent.

I get the feeling that your overestimating the number of trades other teams make, underestimating the number of trades Holland has made, and then blindly calling all other trades "smart" and all of Holland's trades "not smart"

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

So you're saying that, while pretty much every other team in the league was making at least an occasional smart trade, there wasn't a single one for Holland to make for 10 years?

Either he's not being realistic about making trades, or he's doing a lousy job acquiring talent.

The team doesn't need a Jonny Boychuk or a Nick Leddy. Would they have slightly improved the team? Sure. They need a top pairing D to push guys down. Not a top 4 D who will get exposed playing topline minutes. They already have that in DeKeyser and Kronwall and Ouellet and Smith and on and on.

Most of the smart trades you speak of are flipping average for average or star for star.

The Wings didn't have the star level assets (such as Hall for Larsson or Weber for Subban) to be involved in deals like that. Also, the average for average deals like the Leddy for a couple picks would do nothing to change it.

Kyle Quincey at 23-24 years old - 38p in 72 games with a good LAK and 29 in 79 for a terrible COL.
Nick Leddy at 23-24 years old - 37 in 78 and 40 in 81.

Jonny Boychuk near 30 has roughly the same stats. around 35 points in 70ish games and 28 in about 70ish the next year.

Trading for either of those players is a trade for the sake of making a trade. If you hated the Quincey trade in 2012, you should hate the potential Leddy and Boychuk deals that the Wings skipped out on. You could say that Quincey was a bad exception or he didn't fit in... but in different systems, he produced just like those guys we missed out on in "reasonable" trades.

People want the Wings to bring in new faces and call it a failure when they don't. Trades are generally not a great way to improve your team unless you're buying low on a highly depressed asset and they piece it back together. Or you're selling very high on perceived value of a player not actual value. If you have a player with sky high actual value (Patrick Kane, Ovi, McDavid, etc.), you're not going to deal that player because the return would never justify it.

You need to build your team through the draft and the Wings haven't had good enough scouting to land the asset that has more perceived value than actual value or enough players to be core pieces. They need to improve their scouting. Not dealing players has very very little to do with the talent depleted roster. Draft ROR instead of the waived Landon Ferraro and you don't need to find a #1C or sign Frans Nielsen when Datsyuk up and quits. Draft Roman Josi instead of the waived Thomas McCollum and you don't need to find a #1D.

People need to stop banging the "Holland won't trade" drum as a reason for the team's failure. Trades put you over the top for a championship. They don't build a championship roster out of a rebuild... unless you're getting a Herschel Walker deal.

 

[Dotter]

C'mon. It's not like Detroit wasn't offering a substantial raise and term as well.

Did Toronto probably offer more than anybody else? Sure. But if I were Babs, I would've left this sinking ship for even money. You can only bang your head against the same wall so many times...unless you're Holland, apparently.

Babcock left for the money, dude.

And I'd give up #32 Landon Ferraro for #33 Ryan O'Reilly. What does that have to do with anything? A guy drafted later turned out better? Of course you'd trade the higher drafted guy for him.

My message was suppose to read nobody would not give up AA for Slavin. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Frk It]

Grouping Quincey, Leddy, and Boychuk together is a really bad move, and we paid a 1st for Quincey while NYI paid a much more reasonable price for their guys.

I also really hate the don't make a trade unless it's for Doughty or Weber level guys mindset. Yes we need a #1 defenseman. No we shouldn't avoid good #2's, #3's, #4's when they are available and the price is right. Mike Green is the only guy not getting killed in the role he's being given on the back end and maybe Ericsson.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

You missed the point completely. Do you really think Poile wanted to penny-pinch all those years? The guy had to build that club from the ground up on a shoestring budget; Holland on the other hand was dealt the strongest hand of any GM in the modern era, and Lidstrom's retirement (among other developments) has exposed him as an imposter.

How one manages their respective resources is a pretty good measure of how good that manager is. As Babcock used to say, "what have you done for me lately?" Poile has his club winning playoff series and well positioned to contend for the next while. How have things in Detroit been? Just a couple pieces away from contending again are we?

Was he really? Coming out of the lockout, he HAD to do the backdiving contracts that are killing the roster (Franzen, Z, Kronwall, etc.) to play cap games to stay under the cap. Remove the liabilities on those LTIR-able deals and then you can let/push Kronwall retire, you can ratchet Z's use back, you can let Datsyuk walk away without dealing Chychrun.

The Wings had the bank activity of a millionaire and were all of a sudden told that they would be living off of 500k. They had to make deal after deal to simply keep together their Cup standard team from 2004-2009. They had no free money/flexibility when they were pushing for a Cup every year. Then, as soon as they had money, so did everyone else.

The last two lockouts have directly damaged the Red Wings because they had to kick the can down the road to push for the Cup in the late 2000s and then in 2012 the league built a wall in between the can and the Wings.

 

[Dotter]

In a world where a Larsson can land you Hall, Nashville doesn't need to do anything other than stick to its comparative (and absolute) advantage of drafting/developing blueliners. Unlike Holland, Poile has shown the ability to organize the proverbial pissup at a brewery.

To be fair, Nashville is either incredible lucky or incredibly good at drafting dmen... probably a little of both. They are unrivaled in the entire NHL when it comes to drafting dmen.

Ken Holland not drafting Weber, Suter, Klein all in the one draft isn't a testament how bad KH is at drafting, but rather a testament how good Nashville is at drafting dmen.

They are not flawless, in 2008 while Detroit was drafting Tom McCollum (lol), Nashville missed out on Erik Karlsson, but did land a good dman in Roman Josi with the 38th pick. the emergence of Roman Josi ultimately made Seth Jones expandable.

I do think Ken Holland could trade Dylan Larkin for a good young defenseman, but nobody here would go for it. I would have easily traded Larkin+ for Seth Jones.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Grouping Quincey, Leddy, and Boychuk together is a really bad move, and we paid a 1st for Quincey while NYI paid a much more reasonable price for their guys.

I also really hate the don't make a trade unless it's for Doughty or Weber level guys mindset. Yes we need a #1 defenseman. No we shouldn't avoid good #2's, #3's, #4's when they are available and the price is right. Mike Green is the only guy not getting killed in the role he's being given on the back end and maybe Ericsson.

I'm just not a fan of building through trades. It's mostly been my view that a team trades a guy when he's being overpaid, underperforming, or nothing special to begin with... or you're trading a very similar player in the deal. Kind of like how signing an RFA is kind of a pyrrhic victory. To actually land the guy, you have to make it worth the team's while to let them go.

Boychuk and Leddy are deals that were there and maybe could have been made. Probably would have been a good idea to make at least one. But they're not even close to the reason why the Wings are mired in mediocrity.

 

[Frk It]

I'm just not a fan of building through trades. It's mostly been my view that a team trades a guy when he's being overpaid, underperforming, or nothing special to begin with... or you're trading a very similar player in the deal. Kind of like how signing an RFA is kind of a pyrrhic victory. To actually land the guy, you have to make it worth the team's while to let them go.

Boychuk and Leddy are deals that were there and maybe could have been made. Probably would have been a good idea to make at least one. But they're not even close to the reason why the Wings are mired in mediocrity.

It's not my preferred method, my preferred method would be developing and drafting the guys yourself. But when that's not working out then you have to look at all your options, and you have to get creative.

 

[Dotter]

It's not my preferred method, my preferred method would be developing and drafting the guys yourself. But when that's not working out then you have to look at all your options, and you have to get creative.

See, I don't get comments like this. It's again "what have you done for me lately" mentality. Wings are looking promising with the youth they drafted. They are drafting and developing, but I guess not fast enough?

Wings have some good young pieces that has been exceeding all of our expectations. *if* they hit on a couple dmen, then I like this team going forward. When our club shows excitement about Cholowski and didn't seem interested in Chychrun, then I feel good. Especially with Tyler Wright at the helm instead of Jim Nill.

It might not look like it based on this year, but I do think DRWs are already starting the up and coming upswing.

 

[Heaton]

See, I don't get comments like this. It's again "what have you done for me lately" mentality. Wings are looking promising with the youth they drafted. They are drafting and developing, but I guess not fast enough?

Which players are you talking about?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Which players are you talking about?

AA
Mantha
Larkin
Mrazek (until he went sideways)
XO

in the minors
Cholowski
Hronek
Svechnikov

 

[Winger98]

Grouping Quincey, Leddy, and Boychuk together is a really bad move, and we paid a 1st for Quincey while NYI paid a much more reasonable price for their guys.

I also really hate the don't make a trade unless it's for Doughty or Weber level guys mindset. Yes we need a #1 defenseman. No we shouldn't avoid good #2's, #3's, #4's when they are available and the price is right. Mike Green is the only guy not getting killed in the role he's being given on the back end and maybe Ericsson.

Shouldn't leave out the fact that Leddy and Boychuk are also just better players than Quincey when trying to group them together, and both would be noticeable upgrades over the majority of what we run out there every night.

Leddy-Boychuk
Dekeyser-Green
Ericsson-XO/Jensen/Kronwall/Sproul/whoever

I'm just not a fan of building through trades. It's mostly been my view that a team trades a guy when he's being overpaid, underperforming, or nothing special to begin with... or you're trading a very similar player in the deal. Kind of like how signing an RFA is kind of a pyrrhic victory. To actually land the guy, you have to make it worth the team's while to let them go.

Boychuk and Leddy are deals that were there and maybe could have been made. Probably would have been a good idea to make at least one. But they're not even close to the reason why the Wings are mired in mediocrity.

Trade is how we brought in Maltby, Shanny, Murphy, Larionov, Hasek, Chelios, etc. Even if half our blueline was brought in via trade, how many forwards would still be homegrown? The goalies?

You missed the point completely. Do you really think Poile wanted to penny-pinch all those years? The guy had to build that club from the ground up on a shoestring budget; Holland on the other hand was dealt the strongest hand of any GM in the modern era, and Lidstrom's retirement (among other developments) has exposed him as an imposter.

How one manages their respective resources is a pretty good measure of how good that manager is. As Babcock used to say, "what have you done for me lately?" Poile has his club winning playoff series and well positioned to contend for the next while. How have things in Detroit been? Just a couple pieces away from contending again are we?

Ask Sather how much easier it is to win with a big budget. Poile has done a phenomenal job in Nashville, but I don't see it as a slam dunk that he would be X times better if he was in a position to blow another twenty million every year.

 

[Frk It]

See, I don't get comments like this. It's again "what have you done for me lately" mentality. Wings are looking promising with the youth they drafted. They are drafting and developing, but I guess not fast enough?

Wings have some good young pieces that has been exceeding all of our expectations. *if* they hit on a couple dmen, then I like this team going forward. When our club shows excitement about Cholowski and didn't seem interested in Chychrun, then I feel good. Especially with Tyler Wright at the helm instead of Jim Nill.

It might not look like it based on this year, but I do think DRWs are already starting the up and coming upswing.

I'm talking about who's on the team, not who's in the pipeline. We are in the position we are in because of the reason I stated.

The guys you are referencing are probably at least 3 years away. For someone who wants to win now, like you do, I hope you don't mind waiting the 3 or 4 years for these prospects to maybe hit.

 

[Heaton]

AA
Mantha
Larkin
Mrazek (until he went sideways)
XO

I'm going to nitpick this. Mantha hasn't done anything and management is already sour on his work ethic. Larkin regressed this year and may not even hit 30 points. AA also looks great but management doesn't seem super enthusiastic about him.

Not convinced XO will be anything special and Mrazek needs a huge bounce back year to get any more confidence from the fanbase.

As for the prospects you mentioned, we've seen plenty of guys in the minors who haven't done anything and this organization has a terrible history in drafting and developing defensemen.