Ken Holland on 97.1FM right now

[lomekian]

Then all I can say is: ouch. If that's how we're doing outside of the first round, then maybe we ought to tank after all.

To be fair, to criticise a draft where at 23-25 2 players have over 100 NHL games, and two more are 4-6 d-men (with the worst being a boom/bust prospect not totally written off). and two more were used in trades to gain a pick and a roster player, when they traded away their bottom of first round pick, is not the best example to criticise later round picking. Particularly when only 1 of the players they missed trading down looks a miss.

Marchenko, even if waived, is still one of the best 7th round picks in the last decade.

In general, its certainly true that the wings 1st & particularly 2nd round picks have been a bit disappointing over the last decade, but looking further down the picks, the wings still maintain their reputation as good drafters. No elite players, but lots of good ones later on.

From the ones old enough to be relevant:

AA 4th round
Marchenko 7th
Mrazek 5th
Jensen 5th
Nyquist 5th
Helm 5th

All surpassed expectations, as did others who have been traded away or waived.

From rounds 3-7 the wings are deffo above average in terms of good roster players. 1st & 2nd round? Recent signs of improvement, but a definite under-achievement from 2002-2012

 

[lomekian]

I see this statement time to time and I like addressing it. The idea is that people here were wrong, so it's reasonable to think that if we were wrong in the past, how can we also hold Holland accountable?

There's a distinct difference, though, between the failures of internet commentators and general managers. He's paid millions and has advanced scouting systems and professionals to help him make decisions. He has every tool available to him and hockey is his entire professional life.

So were internet posters wrong? Sure. What a shock, most of us just post about hockey when we get home and pop open a beer. But it's a GM's entire purpose to be ahead of the curve and not just make the obvious decisions.

I don't think we should lower the bar for professional management to keep pace with our fan hive mind. It should be far exceeding those standards.

For me the criticism here is if he keeps Blash after this year. I have no doubt that with a slightly better balanced roster and a competent coach that Tatar and Nyquist can become real contributors again. Nike was a PP demon for his first 2 years. Then Blash happened....and now we have the worst PP in the NHL

 

[Bench]

For me the criticism here is if he keeps Blash after this year. I have no doubt that with a slightly better balanced roster and a competent coach that Tatar and Nyquist can become real contributors again. Nike was a PP demon for his first 2 years. Then Blash happened....and now we have the worst PP in the NHL

Blashill is another great example. Many of us were dead wrong about him. We thought he would invigorate the team and help push forward the youth movement, shifting from the stale safe hockey Babcock had been pounding for 10 years.

Annnnnnd miss.

To Holland's credit, he wanted to keep Babcock. I'm not sure that would have changed anything, but certainly it's not hard to imagine getting more production from this roster. It's hard to imagine less, anyway.

 

[Frk It]

To Holland's credit, he wanted to keep Babcock. I'm not sure that would have changed anything, but certainly it's not hard to imagine getting more production from this roster. It's hard to imagine less, anyway.

He also created a roster so uninspiring it made Babcock want to go to a team actually re-building instead of stick around.

 

[Bench]

He also created a roster so uninspiring it made Babcock want to go to a team actually re-building instead of stick around.

Hey, you're preaching to a converted man. Testify, gospel Frk It!

Babcock didn't have the pieces he wanted those finals years. You could see he was like "Really, another small Eastern Euro winger? And is Kindl the biggest defender you could find? Alright Ken, I'll make it work."

So we got years of Dan Clearly plugging it up doing the right things from the coaches view to try to glue things together.

 

[Frk It]

Hey, you're preaching to a converted man. Testify, gospel Frk It!

Babcock didn't have the pieces he wanted those finals years. You could see he was like "Really, another small Eastern Euro winger? And is Kindl the biggest defender you could find? Alright Ken, I'll make it work."

So we got years of Dan Clearly plugging it up doing the right things from the coaches view to try to glue things together.

I don't think it was his sole reason for leaving fwiw, but I think it certainly factored in pretty heavily.

 

[Claypool]

He also created a roster so uninspiring it made Babcock want to go to a team actually re-building instead of stick around.

Babcock left because he doubled his salary and got a ridiculous 8-year deal.

 

[Mijatovic]

If you were Babcock, I reckon you would have a lot more fun coaching the Leafs than us right now.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

ZING

now try arguing against that

you cant

I can't. His drafting has not been good. That's the problem. They've been pretty good at getting complimentary pieces. The "centerpieces" of Mantha, Mrazek, Larkin aren't there yet, if they ever will be.

However, it wouldn't do to throw good money after bad or bad money after worse.

I don't want Holland to fix one hole by opening another without a clear plan to fix the other one. There wasn't a Tatar and Nyquist replacement in 2013. There wasn't anything remotely in the neighborhood of a #1 or #2C when Larkin was to be dangled for a Myers or Trouba.

And Mantha, Smith, Pulks, and Svech looked like it would be god awful for Dion Phaneuf. They already had no offense... take Mantha off this roster and install Phaneuf. They still suck but now they have 7M locked up in Dion forever.

 

[Winger98]

What tool does he have that would have shown Nyquist was a pretender when he went on that huge GPG run that limped us into the finals in 2015(?)?

He bet on Nyquist remaining that amazing player instead of trading him. Would have taken an extremely brave GM to trade him away after that run.

over 20 years of experience with the Wings franchise that has built its success primarily on the backs of great defencemen and centers. Really, even if Nyquist went to be a perennial 65 point wing if we got a top line D back for him we probably win that trade every time.

Honestly, that's probably part of the reason why Holland can't get trades done. Other teams see the same sort of value in wings vs centers/D so they ask for a premium on it.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Says that nowadays, the draft is the only way to get an impact defenseman.

He was teetering on the brink of insane by just saying "man idk if we can sell"

Somebody doesn't know subban plays for Nashville and Weber plays for Montreal

Also I guess he doesn't know his own roster. Green is the best player on the dcore. Pretty impactful

 

[jkutswings]

He was not the lonely man running down that street though. Pretty much everyone here thought that Sheahan, Nyquist and Tatar were beasts waiting to be unleashed especially after they made the big show and did reasonably.

Yet here we are.

Guess I'm the weirdo then. I never viewed Nyquist and Tatar as more than 2nd line wingers. MAYBE fringe first liners, if they were paired with an elite center, but that's stretching things.

Nyquist's streak was the individual effort equivalent of the Wings taking Chicago to 7 games in 2013. Caught lightning in a bottle, and clearly overachieved for a moderate stint.

But relatively one-dimensional wingers aren't cornerstones by nature. The only way this thing WASN'T headed downhill fast is if Larkin kept up his great rookie season, while switching to center, and they magically landed a top pairing defenseman out of thin air.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

This is such garbage being spewed by Holland. It doesn't take 5 years for other organizations. We see time and time again other NHL organizations giving young players a chance. Just because the Wings organization you need to earn your way to the team, through 2,3,4+ years in the minors does not mean that this is the formula to success. While at times being patient is key, it's complete garbage from Holland..

I guess the definition of "impact" can alter from person to person, but here are some "impact" defencemen in the league that have taken less than 5 years to improve an NHL roster:

-Jakob Chychrun. Made the NHL immediately after his draft. While not necessarily an impact D yet, he is still playing a regular NHL shift straight from the draft. Kinda ironic how we could have had Chychrun, but Holland passed...

-Zach Werenski. Made the NHL 1 year after being drafted. He is definetely an "impact" defenceman there Mr. GM. Werenski is unreal.

-Ivan Provorov. Made the NHL 1 year after being drafted. Also a great D already, not quite Werenski level, but pretty darn close.

-Brandon Carlo. Made the NHL 1 year after being drafted.

-Noah Hanifin. Made the NHL immediately after his draft. Was perhaps rushed in by Carolina, but he is still a solid top 4 NHL defenceman already.

-Aaron Ekblad. Made the NHL immediately after his draft. Has regressed a bit this year, but he is still going to be an impact D for many years to come.

-Rasmus Ristolainen. Made it straight outta the draft and struggled a bit his rookie year. He started to become a good player 1 year out of the draft, and now is entering elite level status. Was drafted less than 5 years ago.

-Seth Jones. Made it to the NHL right after his draft. Has continually progressed into a great D. Made it as an NHL All-Star before Holland's aforementioned "5 years".

-Jaccob Slavin. One of the most underrated players in the NHL. Made it before Holland's nonsensical claim.

Holland is wrong, and is stubborn, and needs to go.

Chychrun is having a very rough year. Still waiting to see if Cholo develops into a better d-man. I liked Chychrun and thought when he was falling we were so lucky and it was like Fowler falling.... Now and it is early I am not so sure he wasn't falling for a reason.

Werenski picked before we drafted

Pronorov picked before we drafted

Carlo, I remember being hammered around here for being a fan entering his draft.

Hanifin drafted before us

Ekblad drafted before us

Risto drafted before us

Jones drafted before us

Slavin yup would have been nice to snag him, every team passed on him until the fourth round. It is akin to getting upset we missed out on Jamie Benn. I wish we had got him, but it is hard to kill anyone for not taking him. Really when you find the gems is when you get credit, you get nothing for missing in rounds you shouldn't be getting NHL players out of, but it isn't a how did you miss that guy kind of deal at that point.

All in all you listed players who we had no realistic chance of getting. Not the best attempt at arguing Holland's competence.

D-man generally take longer, D-man where we draft especially so since you had to use a bunch of guys that don't apply to us to prove your point it would seem.

 

[chances14]

I don't think it was his sole reason for leaving fwiw, but I think it certainly factored in pretty heavily.

I am sure it had some factor it. but babcock seems like a guy who likes to embrace new challenges so i think he would have left unless the wings were elite cup contenders already.

getting a chance to coach "canada's" team and getting paid 50 million to do it is not something that comes along very often

 

[Frk It]

Chychrun is having a very rough year. Still waiting to see if Cholo develops into a better d-man. I liked Chychrun and thought when he was falling we were so lucky and it was like Fowler falling.... Now and it is early I am not so sure he wasn't falling for a reason.

Werenski picked before we drafted

Pronorov picked before we drafted

Carlo, I remember being hammered around here for being a fan entering his draft.

Hanifin drafted before us

Ekblad drafted before us

Risto drafted before us

Jones drafted before us

Slavin yup would have been nice to snag him, every team passed on him until the fourth round. It is akin to getting upset we missed out on Jamie Benn. I wish we had got him, but it is hard to kill anyone for not taking him. Really when you find the gems is when you get credit, you get nothing for missing in rounds you shouldn't be getting NHL players out of, but it isn't a how did you miss that guy kind of deal at that point.

All in all you listed players who we had no realistic chance of getting. Not the best attempt at arguing Holland's competence.

D-man generally take longer, D-man where we draft especially so since you had to use a bunch of guys that don't apply to us to prove your point it would seem.

I think the point there was just that there are defenseman drafted that make impacts sooner than 5 years. ((Wouldn't call all those guys impact players))

Not that we were wrong for not picking them.

But maybe I misunderstood.

 

[Dotter]

Slavin yup would have been nice to snag him, every team passed on him until the fourth round. It is akin to getting upset we missed out on Jamie Benn. I wish we had got him, but it is hard to kill anyone for not taking him. Really when you find the gems is when you get credit, you get nothing for missing in rounds you shouldn't be getting NHL players out of, but it isn't a how did you miss that guy kind of deal at that point.

bit off topic, but you'll find many ppl on this board would not give Andreas Athanasiou (#110) up for Slavin (#120).

 

[The Zermanator]

Chychrun is having a very rough year. Still waiting to see if Cholo develops into a better d-man. I liked Chychrun and thought when he was falling we were so lucky and it was like Fowler falling.... Now and it is early I am not so sure he wasn't falling for a reason.

Gotta disagree with you there. What Chychrun is doing in the NHL is far more impressive than what Cholo is doing in college. Those two leagues are miles apart. Arizona is obviously a very bad team and there's little safety net for an 18 year old (one of several very young players). Could you imagine if he played for, say, San Jose? But we're near the bottom too. He'd be 2nd on this team in points for D. He's gotten 11 points in half a season with barely any PP time. Plays 16 mins a game on average already. We'll see how Cholowski pans out but he hasn't lit the NCAA on fire, not even close. He's just cutting his teeth. Chychrun obviously hasn't lit the NHL on fire either, but he's been challenged to a much greater degree than Cholowski.

But hey, we've got another couple 30+ year old players locked down to show for all that cap space!

 

[FlashyG]

What's funny, is we have not seen a better team at drafting Dmen than Nashville. They landed both Suter, Weber, and Klein in the same draft. Whats even more funny is they took Kevin Klein before Shea Weber. Kenny needs to poach their scouts.

Fun fact, Wings drafted Jimmy Howard with their 1st pick (64th overall) that same draft. They didn't have many picks in that draft. They also drafted Kyle Quincey in that same draft as Howard, Weber, Suter, Klein. That was a deep draft, it produced lots of all-star players... but no generational talent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_NHL_Entry_Draft

Yet if you look over Nashville's entire drafting record they haven't gotten much beyond defence.

I don't think its just their scouting staff, their development system(I believe Phil Housley is involved) seems to be able to get the most out of defenceman. They certainly don't seem to have much success with the forwards they've selected though.

 

[Syckle78]

Everything he said is everything he should have said. Sorry but assuming you know exactly what he's going to do because of his history is ********. Holland has never been behind the wheel of a non playoff team before. This is completely new.

That's great but his history also drove us off this cliff so it's fair to forecast his actions based on what he's done up to this point.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Gotta disagree with you there. What Chychrun is doing in the NHL is far more impressive than what Cholo is doing in college. Those two leagues are miles apart. Arizona is obviously a very bad team and there's little safety net for an 18 year old (one of several very young players). Could you imagine if he played for, say, San Jose? But we're near the bottom too. He'd be 2nd on this team in points for D. He's gotten 11 points in half a season with barely any PP time. Plays 16 mins a game on average already. We'll see how Cholowski pans out but he hasn't lit the NCAA on fire, not even close. He's just cutting his teeth. Chychrun obviously hasn't lit the NHL on fire either, but he's been challenged to a much greater degree than Cholowski.

But hey, we've got another couple 30+ year old players locked down to show for all that cap space!

Probably worth noting that Arizona has 6 d-men with 9+ points, we have only Green. That doesn't say as much about the talent level of the players as it does about the situation.
Teams play different styles, right now we're not playing in a way that leads to a lot of points for our D. Chychrun would not be in the NHL currently for us and I think we have plenty of young D that can play 16 minutes a night and do a solid job, we need someone that can play 25.

 

[Dotter]

Probably worth noting that Arizona has 6 d-men with 9+ points, we have only Green. That doesn't say as much about the talent level of the players as it does about the situation.
Teams play different styles, right now we're not playing in a way that leads to a lot of points for our D. Chychrun would not be in the NHL currently for us and I think we have plenty of young D that can play 16 minutes a night and do a solid job, we need someone that can play 25.

It should also be noted that AZ has arguably a top 5 coach in the league. I think Wings are in the playoffs if Dave Tippett is leading our team.

 

[abbbaron]

Yet if you look over Nashville's entire drafting record they haven't gotten much beyond defence.

I don't think its just their scouting staff, their development system(I believe Phil Housley is involved) seems to be able to get the most out of defenceman. They certainly don't seem to have much success with the forwards they've selected though.

In a world where a Larsson can land you Hall, Nashville doesn't need to do anything other than stick to its comparative (and absolute) advantage of drafting/developing blueliners. Unlike Holland, Poile has shown the ability to organize the proverbial pissup at a brewery.

 

[jkutswings]

Babcock left because he doubled his salary and got a ridiculous 8-year deal.

C'mon. It's not like Detroit wasn't offering a substantial raise and term as well.

Did Toronto probably offer more than anybody else? Sure. But if I were Babs, I would've left this sinking ship for even money. You can only bang your head against the same wall so many times...unless you're Holland, apparently.

 

[Heaton]

Yet if you look over Nashville's entire drafting record they haven't gotten much beyond defence.

I don't think its just their scouting staff, their development system(I believe Phil Housley is involved) seems to be able to get the most out of defenceman. They certainly don't seem to have much success with the forwards they've selected though.

Yet they've been willing to trade to get pieces they can't draft, something Holland is incapable of doing.

 

[Claypool]

Yet they've been willing to trade to get pieces they can't draft, something Holland is incapable of doing.

Let me know when Nashville actually does something.