Karlsson vs Hedman: Who was the better defensemen at their best?

[Ben White]

so says you.

But "the dman you use in all situations", he was not. He was absolutely never the guy you count on in your own zone. He has one year in his career he was rather average defensively, every other year, he was pretty significantly below average, and I can provide a plethora of statistics that bear this out.

I don’t know if stats tell the whole story in this case, lots of offense was required from EK on that Sens’ roster, in a pretty unprecedented way. When needed he could shut down guys and even take on a more defensive role in general. He almost lead the entire NHL in blocked shots in 2017, hadn’t it been for that late season injury he’d been the first dman to lead the league in blocked shots and D-scoring in the same season.

 

[Hisch13r]

Karlsson clearly. Karlsson at his peak was arguably the best player in the world

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Hedman. Karlsson was super overrated. Never could defend worth shit.

Karlsson during the Olympics in best on best in the world, he lead the tournament in points and had zero goals scored against when he was on the ice. Zero.

In the playoffs 16/17, he had most TOI, 6th in points and 2nd highest +/-. In fact, in his own team the next highest was a +5.

Your post is a joke.

 

[Canadiens Ghost]

Karlsson was more dominant.

 

[joe dirte]

Karlsson during the Olympics in best on best in the world, he lead the tournament in points and had zero goals scored against when he was on the ice. Zero.

In the playoffs 16/17, he had most TOI, 6th in points and 2nd highest +/-. In fact, in his own team the next highest was a +5.

Your post is a joke.

If youre trying to pump up Erik Karlsson, the last thing you should do is bring up goals against. He led the NHL in ES goals against most years.

 

[bov]

Hedman at his best is the best defensive d-man in the game and still elite for the position offensively. When he's firing on all cylinders, I can't think of another player who is more involved and covers as much ice. It's a shame that Karlsson's career was hit so hard by injury but Victor takes this one.

 

[Ben White]

Hedman at his best is the best defensive d-man in the game and still elite for the position offensively. When he's firing on all cylinders, I can't think of another player who is more involved and covers as much ice. It's a shame that Karlsson's career was hit so hard by injury but Victor takes this one.

This sounds like a description of EK at his best, but on a different level than Hedman. He was literally everywhere doing everything at his peak.

 

[The Macho King]

For all the talk about Karlsson's ECF run, what's forgotten is if Tampa wins in '15 Hedman is hands down the Conn Smythe winner, and the year we made the ECF without Stamkos (the first time), he was again by far our best player.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

If youre trying to pump up Erik Karlsson, the last thing you should do is bring up goals against. He led the NHL in ES goals against most years.

Playing on a brutal team dragging around Cowen, Kuba, Ceci until he got Methot.

“If you’re trying to pump up EK” lol do you read your posts sometimes, bud?

EK winning this poll 70% against the current near unanimous best D in the league and reigning Conn Smythe winner and you’re saying “if you’re trying to pump up EK”? EK doesn’t need pumping up.

Terrible take is terrible take.

 

[joe dirte]

Playing on a brutal team dragging around Cowen, Kuba, Ceci until he got Methot.

Terrible take is terrible take.

And yet many of those guys got scored on at a lower rate, on the same team, than he did.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

For all the talk about Karlsson's ECF run, what's forgotten is if Tampa wins in '15 Hedman is hands down the Conn Smythe winner, and the year we made the ECF without Stamkos (the first time), he was again by far our best player.

It's not being forgotten. All Karlsson had to do to win the Conn Smythe in 2017 was make the finals. He didn't even need to win, if Ottawa scores the OT winner against Pittsburgh, he was winning the Conn Smythe regardless if Nashville beats Ottawa or not.

 

[MrOT]

And yet many of those guys got scored on at a lower rate, on the same team, than he did.

I think that has a natural explanation (granted it is true what you say which I doubt). When Karlsson was on the ice they went all offense. When he wasn't, it was like "hey guys we won't score anyway so just park in front of your net and dump the puck out". His advanced stats were still great, GF/GA is a horrible metric.

 

[x Tame Impala]

For all the talk about Karlsson's ECF run, what's forgotten is if Tampa wins in '15 Hedman is hands down the Conn Smythe winner, and the year we made the ECF without Stamkos (the first time), he was again by far our best player.

He shut down Patty Kane VERY well that series. It was Pronger-esque. Ever since then I knew that dude was legit and was going to be one of the best defenseman in the league for a long time.

 

[joe dirte]

I think that has a natural explanation (granted it is true what you say which I doubt). When Karlsson was on the ice they went all offense. When he wasn't, it was like "hey guys we won't score anyway so just park in front of your net and dump the puck out". His advanced stats were still great, GF/GA is a horrible metric.

I think thats the point. There was nobody playing defense with him on the ice. This series of posts started by someone stating he couldnt defend worth a damn. So when you reply that it was all offense and no defense with him, well thats sort of our point.

What good is generating so much more offense if it comes at the cost of giving up just as many goals againat?

What i replied to was a post regarding goals against over a 6 game period, the olympics. I pointed out that goals against is a strange thing to reference in support of karlsson. He was frequently the worst in the NHL by that measure, and even by rates, almost always the worst on his team (and its been pointed out it was a bad team).

Why point to a 6 game sample of a statistic of his that looks good when his 600 other sample size of the same statistic is horrendous?

 

[MrOT]

I think thats the point. There was nobody playing defense with him on the ice. This series of posts started by someone stating he couldnt defend worth a damn. So when you reply that it was all offense and no defense with him, well thats sort of our point.

What good is generating so much more offense if it comes at the cost of giving up just as many goals againat?

What i replied to was a post regarding goals against over a 6 game period, the olympics. I pointed out that goals against is a strange thing to reference in support of karlsson. He was frequently the worst in the NHL by that measure, and even by rates, almost always the worst on his team (and its been pointed out it was a bad team).

Why point to a 6 game sample of a statistic of his that looks good when his 600 other sample size of the same statistic is horrendous?

That says more about the coaching in that case than Karlsson's level of play

He was obviously capable of playing defense, in his prime, when that was a part of the game plan. Hence the 2014 olympics and the 2016-17 season + playoffs that's been brought up earlier in this thread by various posters.

 

[Castle8130]

Karlsson in the 17 playoffs carried his team on his back and almost individually stopped the Pittsburg Penguins, a team considered to be one of the best of all time. I'd also give credit to the coaching and Hoffman for providing offense, but man was he incredible. He was by far the best player in that series.

 

[joe dirte]

That says more about the coaching in that case than Karlsson's level of play

He was obviously capable of playing defense, in his prime, when that was a part of the game plan. Hence the 2014 olympics and the 2016-17 season + playoffs that's been brought up earlier in this thread by various posters.

Ibsee, so he was capaboe of being go9d defensively, but his coaches stop0ed him from doing so.... all 5 of them the team over that span. Makes sense.

 

[MrOT]

Ibsee, so he was capaboe of being go9d defensively, but his coaches stop0ed him from doing so.... all 5 of them the team over that span. Makes sense.

Someone had to take on offensive responsibilities, and he was their best offensive player. That makes sense. They could've moved him to wing but that wouldn't have been a very good idea either especially since he's probably less effective there.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Ibsee, so he was capaboe of being go9d defensively, but his coaches stop0ed him from doing so.... all 5 of them the team over that span. Makes sense.

He was good defensively, anyone continuing to parrot this old and tired narrative is just outing themselves for not watching him play.

 

[joe dirte]

He was good defensively, anyone continuing to parrot this old and tired narrative is just outing themselves for not watching him play.

Good defensively just got scored on in droves, in both raw numbers and rates anyway,even worse than his teammates, who most acknowledge were pretty bad... just bad luck i guess.

In reality he is horrible defensively.

 

[MrOT]

Good defensively just got scored on in droves, in both raw numbers and rates anyway,even worse than his teammates, who most acknowledge were pretty bad... just bad luck i guess.

In reality he is horrible defensively.

Someone isn´t listening to nor discussing any of the crystal clear arguments presented. I'm out

 

[joe dirte]

Someone isn´t listening to nor discussing any of the crystal clear arguments presented. I'm out

You havent really given one. All youve seemingly tried to say is that the team asked him to play all offense and ignore defense. Its a bizarre attempt to try to excuse terrible defensive play..... "the team asked him to do it"... its possible for dmen to do both. In the context of this thread..... hedman does. Playing in all situations at an elite level is a major thing that separates truly elite franchise dmen that lead cup winning teams from the likes of..... well... Karlsson.

 

[MrOT]

You havent really given one. All youve seemingly tried to say is that the team asked him to play all offense and ignore defense. Its a bizarre attempt to try to excuse terrible defensive play..... "the team asked him to do it"... its possible for dmen to do both. In the context of this thread..... hedman does. Playing in all situations at an elite level is a major thing that separates truly elite franchise dmen that lead cup winning teams from the likes of..... well... Karlsson.

Basically I don't think so. Hedman wouldn't become 4th in league scoring and lead the league in assists regardless of how much he focused on offense, especially not with Turris as 1C and playing with borderline top 4 dmen and with Hoffman as the team's leading sniper, and he definitely wouldn't be seen as a defensive rock while simultaneusly being relied on as the team's main offensive weapon. I mean Karlsson was fantastic at his peak but he wasn't superman. Maybe for a short period before Cooke sliced him and while also being very young and not very heavy he could skate up and down and do what you seem to suggest that... Hedman would be capable of? Comon now

Imagine Hedman doing this:

 

[joe dirte]

Basically I don't think so. Hedman wouldn't become 4th in league scoring and lead the league in assists regardless of how much he focused on offense, especially not with Turris as 1C and playing with borderline top 4 dmen and with Hoffman as the team's leading sniper, and he definitely wouldn't be seen as a defensive rock while simultaneusly being relied on as the team's main offensive weapon. I mean Karlsson was fantastic at his peak but he wasn't superman. Maybe for a short period before Cooke sliced him and while also being very young and not very heavy he could skate up and down and do what you seem to suggest that... Hedman would be capable of? Comon now

And there is nothing karlsson can ever do to approach the level, or even come within a country mile of hedman defensively.

Ill take the dman that peaks at 72 points and is elite defensively over the dman that scores 80 and is a liability defensively. Quite easily actually. Id take the 50 to 60 point dman that is elite defensively over that.

 

[MrOT]

And there is nothing karlsson can ever do to approach the level, or even come within a country mile of hedman defensively.

Ill take the dman that peaks at 72 points and is elite defensively over the dman that scores 80 and is a liability defensively. Quite easily actually. Id take the 50 to 60 point dman that is elite defensively over that.

Still not understanding a word of what I'm saying, missing the point completely

Listen: Prime Karlsson was either a part of a system where he focused mostly on offense and putting up historical numbers (no you can't compare 72 points by Hedman in a completely different scoring environment with Karlsson being 4th in league scoring with 82 while also leading his team in points - first since Orr to do that) with less defensive responsibilities, or a great 2-way Dman, while not historical offensively, still top 2 in D-man scoring. He could do both depending on the system. Hedman is slightly better defensively than Karlsson at his best while being a country mile behind at offense.