Karlsson vs Coffey for peak (read OP)

[McFlash97]

You can pick whatever point in time you want, but Lidstrom is always the better defenceman imo.

At his peak Lidstrom was putting up big numbers while being an absolute shutdown defender in his own zone.

Lidstrom is quickly getting pretty overrated on these boards. He always played behind absolutely stacked organizations much like Coffey. He is one of my top 5 favourite dmen of all time, but to say Lidstrom at his absolute peak was above Coffey at Coffeys absolute peak is being blatanly ignorant. Lidstrom was more consistent and stable and better defensively throughout his career and racked in more Norris trophies. But you can name at least 3 of Lidstroms best years and put it next to Coffey's and Coffey absolutely trounces him.

Lidstrom was better defensively and was more consistant defensively.

however there is nothing in Lidstroms offensive game that was all that close to Paul.
Lidstrom would not have 7 Norris trophies playing in an era with prime Bourque, Potvin, Chelios, Coffey

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Lidstrom is quickly getting pretty overrated on these boards. He always played behind absolutely stacked organizations much like Coffey. He is one of my top 5 favourite dmen of all time, but to say Lidstrom at his absolute peak was above Coffey at Coffeys absolute peak is being blatanly ignorant. Lidstrom was more consistent and stable and better defensively throughout his career and racked in more Norris trophies. But you can name at least 3 of Lidstroms best years and put it next to Coffey's and Coffey absolutely trounces him.

Lidstrom was better defensively and was more consistant defensively.

however there is nothing in Lidstroms offensive game that was all that close to Paul.
Lidstrom would not have 7 Norris trophies playing in an era with prime Bourque, Potvin, Chelios, Coffey

The level at which they played defence was not all that close between Lidstrom and Coffey.

What numbers would Lidstrom have put up had his career started 8-10 years earlier and been on that Oilers team?

 

[McFlash97]

The level at which they played defence was not all that close between Lidstrom and Coffey.

What numbers would Lidstrom have put up had his career started 8-10 years earlier and been on that Oilers team?

Lol

When the youngins are clueless and spew out nonsense, a simple visit to hockeydb usually does the job. One of the best seasons by a defenseman in the 90s. Mid 30s Paul Coffey.

Should have had the Hart Trophy bagged ... but the NHL will do NHL type stuff, and guys like you will keep spinning around in circles.

3 years they played on the same team. Coffey ran the show. Lidstrom was the sidekick albeit he was early in his career. People forget real quickly.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Lol

When the youngins are clueless and spew out nonsense, a simple visit to hockeydb usually does the job. One of the best seasons by a defenseman in the 90s. Mid 30s Paul Coffey.

Should have had the Hart Trophy bagged ... but the NHL will do NHL type stuff, and guys like you will keep spinning around in circles.

3 years they played on the same team. Coffey ran the show. Lidstrom was the sidekick albeit he was early in his career. People forget real quickly.

View attachment 352868

Coffey was the better offensive player, but this was also before Lidstrom, became Lidstrom.

I also don’t think you can just dismiss the level of difference between the two defensively. It’s a big gap.

And yeah... playing for the glory Oilers in the 80’s absolutely inflated Coffey’s point totals. It doesn’t mean he’s not an all-time great offensive talent, but his numbers deserve some scrutiny.

 

[North Cole]

The level at which they played defence was not all that close between Lidstrom and Coffey.

What numbers would Lidstrom have put up had his career started 8-10 years earlier and been on that Oilers team?

Well he wouldn't have his conn smythe. So I'm sure it evens out to a degree

 

[Steven Toast]

What numbers would Lidstrom have put up had his career started 8-10 years earlier and been on that Oilers team?

These boards love a counterfactual. Since you want to go this route. Lindstrom probably has better point totals. He wouldn't have reached Coffey's godly numbers as he simply wasn't as good offensively as peak Coffey (only Orr was).

He probably doesn't win any/less Norris trophies as he would be seen as a good compliment to the 80's Oilers. He absolutely doesn't win a Smythe if he's on a team with Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Anderson, etc.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Coffey.. if not for injuries Karlsson could possibly have matched him but I don't think he got there.

 

[McFlash97]

Coffey was the better offensive player, but this was also before Lidstrom, became Lidstrom.

I also don’t think you can just dismiss the level of difference between the two defensively. It’s a big gap.

And yeah... playing for the glory Oilers in the 80’s absolutely inflated Coffey’s point totals. It doesn’t mean he’s not an all-time great offensive talent, but his numbers deserve some scrutiny.

Then Lets visit why Lidstrom became highy regarded and won 7 Norris trophies in his era then,


Lidstrom would have been an afterthought playing on the 80's Oilers. The firewagon hockey trading chances back and forth would not be up his alley. Lidstrom was tailored made for the slow boring late 90's early 2000's hockey where chances were far and few in between , coaching strategies relied on playing the trap, and he simply was the steadiest of them all. Hence the 7 Norris trophies. None of those seasons scream out at you.

NHL talent was at an all time low during Lidstroms prime years.

This is all fact. Prime Lidstrom wouldn't be as effective today or the 80's and early 90's.

Lidstrom is an all time great due to his consistancy. He was nowhere near Prime Coffey in any season. Coffey reached greater heights. Lidstrom was just more consistant and penultimate by product of his era,


Lidstrom's 7 Norris trophies deserve some scrutiny too. Several defenseman could have won some of those Norris trophies that had more dominant seasons that were passed over, Pronger, Niedermayer, Weber, Chara. Lidstrom's reputation won him a few.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Shore as well.

4 time Hart trophy winner as a D man which is insane. He hit like Scott Stevens before Stevens was even born, you could argue after Stevens that Shore is the most devastating hitter of all time.

I always have trouble comparing players from way back when to more recent (ie. post expansion) players because the quality of player in the league wasn't as good as later years. When a sport is in its infancy, chances are the gap between the dominant players and the "bad players" is much wider than, say, the gap between a superstar today and a 4th liner today.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

These boards love a counterfactual. Since you want to go this route. Lindstrom probably has better point totals. He wouldn't have reached Coffey's godly numbers as he simply wasn't as good offensively as peak Coffey (only Orr was).

He probably doesn't win any/less Norris trophies as he would be seen as a good compliment to the 80's Oilers. He absolutely doesn't win a Smythe if he's on a team with Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Anderson, etc.

Lidrstrom was a better all-around defenceman than Coffey. I’m not sure how this is even being debated. Lidstrom has a legit case to be considered the number 2 D all-time behind Orr.

 

[Steven Toast]

Lidrstrom was a better all-around defenceman than Coffey. I’m not sure how this is even being debated. Lidstrom has a legit case to be considered the number 2 D all-time behind Orr.

Better all around maybe. Coffey had a peak that was miles ahead. And Lidstrom would not be as highly regarded on the 80's Oilers as he would have been seen as a complimentary piece. His style of play also would not have translated out of era too well.

Also it is laughable to consider him the 2nd best dman of all time.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Better all around maybe. Coffey had a peak that was miles ahead. And Lidstrom would not be as highly regarded on the 80's Oilers as he would have been seen as a complimentary piece. His style of play also would not have translated out of era too well.

Also it is laughable to consider him the 2nd best dman of all time.

I’ll make a poll and we can continue discussion there. I think we’re hijacking this poll lol

 

[Fatass]

Coffee was (is) top five d of all time.
Where would EK rank - top 20?
I think EK (Who was great offensively) falls into a category for ranking that puts him up against guys who were the all around group too, so he could fall even lower than 20, and maybe even out of the top 30.
Orr
Harvey
Lidstrom
Coffee
Potvin
and then a whole lot of guys (maybe 30?)
Then
EK

EK is 30, and clearly on a serious decline offensively. He’s still not even half way to Housley for points.

 

[Stephen]

no, he doesnt come close overall to beating Bourque in a 5 year peak snapshot.

Bourque's 5 year snapshot is 1986-97 to 1990-91

4x Norris
2x Hart runner up
4x AS-1
1x AS-2

Here's a Paul Coffey snapshot from 1982-83 to 1986-87:

3x SC
3x 100 point seasons
2x Norris
2x AS-2
2x AS-2

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Lol

When the youngins are clueless and spew out nonsense, a simple visit to hockeydb usually does the job. One of the best seasons by a defenseman in the 90s. Mid 30s Paul Coffey.

Should have had the Hart Trophy bagged ... but the NHL will do NHL type stuff, and guys like you will keep spinning around in circles.

3 years they played on the same team. Coffey ran the show. Lidstrom was the sidekick albeit he was early in his career. People forget real quickly.

View attachment 352868

Weird then that Bowman said the Wings would never win a Cup with Coffey and traded him a year later. And you obviously didn't watch or don't remember the 95 Cup Finals. Coffey was awful. Something you can't find on hockey db.

``He's not one of my favorites,'' said Bowman, referring to Coffey as ``a role player.''
``A guy that can skate like he can, has all that talent, why can't he play defense?'' Bowman asked. ``He's not as good on the power play as people think. The main thing he can do is carry the puck up the ice, but his work at the point isn't that great.''

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/nhl/longterm/1997/playoffs/flyers28.htm

So no, the 24 year old Lidstrom didn't put up as many points as 33 year old Coffey. But he did actually play defense.

And Coffey winning the 95 Hart Trophy over Lindros would've been a travesty.

 

[Stephen]

Then Lets visit why Lidstrom became highy regarded and won 7 Norris trophies in his era then,


Lidstrom would have been an afterthought playing on the 80's Oilers. The firewagon hockey trading chances back and forth would not be up his alley. Lidstrom was tailored made for the slow boring late 90's early 2000's hockey where chances were far and few in between , coaching strategies relied on playing the trap, and he simply was the steadiest of them all. Hence the 7 Norris trophies. None of those seasons scream out at you.

NHL talent was at an all time low during Lidstroms prime years.

This is all fact. Prime Lidstrom wouldn't be as effective today or the 80's and early 90's.

Lidstrom is an all time great due to his consistancy. He was nowhere near Prime Coffey in any season. Coffey reached greater heights. Lidstrom was just more consistant and penultimate by product of his era,


Lidstrom's 7 Norris trophies deserve some scrutiny too. Several defenseman could have won some of those Norris trophies that had more dominant seasons that were passed over, Pronger, Niedermayer, Weber, Chara. Lidstrom's reputation won him a few.

I think we also need to appreciate the breadth of Coffey's offensive dominance a little more closely.

Yes, he played on the 80s Oilers and then the Lemieux era Penguins, but even his second and third best point totals would stand as one year franchise scoring records for most franchises in the league. That really tells you he wasn't playing the position a la someone thinking classical defense.

 

[McFlash97]

Weird then that Bowman said the Wings would never win a Cup with Coffey and traded him a year later. And you obviously didn't watch or don't remember the 95 Cup Finals. Coffey was awful. Something you can't find on hockey db.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/nhl/longterm/1997/playoffs/flyers28.htm

So no, the 24 year old Lidstrom didn't put up as many points as 33 year old Coffey. But he did actually play defense.

And Coffey winning the 95 Hart Trophy over Lindros would've been a travesty.

if Coffey was awful.... what was Lidstrom up to ? Bowman attacking Coffey is akin to calling out your best players when the team struggles. Sort of what all coaches do. this is the same guy that called out Steve Yzerman, and sat Fedorov several times that season. Lidstrom was also atrocious in several playoff runs , including getting trashed on by the Oilers in 06 ...can't find that on hockey DB.

 

[Stephen]

Weird then that Bowman said the Wings would never win a Cup with Coffey and traded him a year later. And you obviously didn't watch or don't remember the 95 Cup Finals. Coffey was awful. Something you can't find on hockey db.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/nhl/longterm/1997/playoffs/flyers28.htm

So no, the 24 year old Lidstrom didn't put up as many points as 33 year old Coffey. But he did actually play defense.

And Coffey winning the 95 Hart Trophy over Lindros would've been a travesty.

Bowman's feud with Coffey in 1995 is hardly the definitive word on Coffey as a player.

Also, those early to mid 90s Detroit Red Wings were always struggling with defensive issues. This was the era when they were going through goalies like Tim Cheveldae, Bob Essensa, Chris Osgood and Mike Vernon to find their winning goalie, and spending considerable amounts of time and effort looking to plug holes on the blueline, acquiring defensive guys like Rouse, Fetisov, Howe, Ramsey, etc.

 

[KMart27]

If you like your Coffey lite, then you take Karlsson

Erik "Decaf" Karlsson

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

if Coffey was awful.... what was Lidstrom up to ? Bowman attacking Coffey is akin to calling out your best players when the team struggles. Sort of what all coaches do. this is the same guy that called out Steve Yzerman, and sat Fedorov several times that season. Lidstrom was also atrocious in several playoff runs , including getting trashed on by the Oilers in 06 ...can't find that on hockey DB.

Except Bowman traded Coffey. This wasn't calling out Coffey to get him to play better.

I'm saying your assessment of Coffey should be more than looking at point totals on hockey db. There's no way he should've won the Hart that year. That's not saying he was bad. The guy won the Norris that year.

Sure sure.. lidstrom was atrocious in several playoff runs. See if you can find a lot of people to agree with that statement.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Bowman's feud with Coffey in 1995 is hardly the definitive word on Coffey as a player.

Also, those early to mid 90s Detroit Red Wings were always struggling with defensive issues. This was the era when they were going through goalies like Tim Cheveldae, Bob Essensa, Chris Osgood and Mike Vernon to find their winning goalie, and spending considerable amounts of time and effort looking to plug holes on the blueline, acquiring defensive guys like Rouse, Fetisov, Howe, Ramsey, etc.

I was specifically replying to someone comparing Coffey and Lidstrom in '95. I'm not talking about Coffey's entire career but the person I quoted said Coffey should've won the Hart that year and made it sound like he was lightyears ahead of Lidstrom, which is simply false, especially defensively. And why Bowman could get rid of Coffey a season later.

To be clear I picked Coffey in this poll and don't think it's particularly close.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Depends on how brief you want to make the peak. I don't think Coffey ever reached the same level of play as Karlsson did in the 2013 shortened season before Cooke where he was putting in a serious argument for best player in the league. And then Coffey never dragged his team to within a goal of the SCF on one leg.

If you mean peak by a few seasons, it's probably Coffey. Karlsson's injuries prevented him from being able to match it.

 

[McFlash97]

Depends on how brief you want to make the peak. I don't think Coffey ever reached the same level of play as Karlsson did in the 2013 shortened season before Cooke where he was putting in a serious argument for best player in the league. And then Coffey never dragged his team to within a goal of the SCF on one leg.

If you mean peak by a few seasons, it's probably Coffey. Karlsson's injuries prevented him from being able to match it.

Lol


Karlsson at his peak didnt sniff Coffeys jockstrap.

When did these random 75- 80 point defenseman start having a higher peak then Paul Coffey.... ? The Guy hit ppg once in his career and terrible defensively now peaked higher then Coffey ?

His incredible 18 points in 19 games in his lone playoff run just makes some Ottawa fans tingle with joy.

Better then Coffey !
Here is a snippet of Coffey in the playoffs. Gtfo put of here with Karlsson he doesnt even belong In the same book..let alone same sentence.

 

[robsenz]

Now stop for a second and just Imagine peak Karlsson playing in the 80's for the Oilers.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Lol


Karlsson at his peak didnt sniff Coffeys jockstrap.

When did these random 75- 80 point defenseman start having a higher peak then Paul Coffey.... ? The Guy hit ppg once in his career and terrible defensively now peaked higher then Coffey ?

His incredible 18 points in 19 games in his lone playoff run just makes some Ottawa fans tingle with joy.

Better then Coffey !
Here is a snippet of Coffey in the playoffs. Gtfo put of here with Karlsson he doesnt even belong In the same book..let alone same sentence.

View attachment 353020

There's more to hockey than beyond points my guy.