Karlsson vs Coffey for peak (read OP)

[MrOT]

Who peaked higher? (Assuming Karlsson's peak is gone since the 2017 surgery).

Trophy case:

Karlsson: 2 Norrises, 2 runner ups
Coffey: 3 Norrises, 1 runner up

Top seasons:
Karlsson: (2016) 4th in league points while being top scorer on his team (1st since Orr) , 1st in league assists (1st since Orr)
Coffey: (1986) 3rd in league points (while being 77 points behind Gretzky on his own team), 3rd in league assists (while being 73 assists behind Gretzky on his own team)

Top playoffs:
Karlsson: 6th in points (while not making the finals and leading his team in points), 3rd in assists (while not making the finals and leading his team in assists)
Coffey: 2nd in points (while making the finals and being 10 points behind Gretzky on his own team), 2nd in assists (while making the finals and being 5 assists behind Gretzky on his own team)

Sidenote: Karlsson was ranked as high as #3 on the TSN top 50 list after the 2016/17 season, does anyone have a similar ranking for the 80's?

Click to read more...

 

[amnesiac]

Coffey was still outscoring the 2nd best Dman by a larger % than EK at his peak.

Ill say Coffey RIP.

 

[MrOT]

Coffey was still outscoring the 2nd best Dman by a larger % than EK at his peak.

Ill say Coffey RIP.

Yeah but it's a lot easier to do that playing alongside Gretzky, Messier and Kurry instead of Turris, Hoffman and Ryan...

 

[bobholly39]

No player in history has scored 180+points without Coffeys help

48 goals, 138 points, 37 playoff points...he was just better offensively

Karlsson ranks very high for offensive peak as a defenseman - but he's behind Coffey

 

[MrOT]

No player in history has scored 180+points without Coffeys help

48 goals, 138 points, 37 playoff points...he was just better offensively

Karlsson ranks very high for offensive peak as a defenseman - but he's behind Coffey

Noone said offensive peak here though, Karlsson was definitely the more well rounded player during his very short peak + the proven leadership to go with it

(Sidenote: Adjust those stats for scoring environment and teammates and it's not as easy as "just better offensively")

 

[amnesiac]

Yeah but it's a lot easier to do that playing alongside Gretzky, Messier and Kurry instead of Turris, Hoffman and Ryan...

You can argue, but he was their 2nd best producer after Gretzky. I think Mess and Kurri benefitted from Coffey a lot more than the other way around.

385P in 3 seasons at his peak... Bourque had 259P during those 3 seasons as the 2nd best offensive Dman. 126P difference. Thats a hell of a gap, regardless of the team they played for.

 

[MrOT]

You can argue, but he was their 2nd best producer after Gretzky. I think Mess and Kurri benefitted from Coffey a lot more than the other way around.

385P in 3 seasons at his peak... Bourque had 259P during those 3 seasons as the 2nd best offensive Dman. 126P difference. Thats a hell of a gap, regardless of the team they played for.

That's true, still there is Gretzky who fluctuates everything around him and makes all comparisons very difficult, but I hear what you say.

But I'd also say Karlsson's prime resume vs his peers looks rather flattering as well, especially when you factor in he was THE leader on a below average team with very little offensive talent, while also fighting through a career threatening injury during those years, and with the former forward Brent Burns (who at the time wasn't anywhere near Karlsson defensively) as the biggest threat.

1.	Erik Karlsson (D)	421	99	286	385	0.914	206	2011-2017
2.	Brent Burns (D)	426	115	201	316	0.742	246	2011-2017
3.	Dustin Byfuglien (D)	417	90	197	287	0.688	552	2011-2017
4.	P.K. Subban (D)	421	59	219	278	0.660	450	2011-2017
5.	Shea Weber (D)	439	103	168	271	0.617	283	2011-2017

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I wonder what that list would look like if Karlsson played with a player as dominant as Gretzky in his prime during these years. Just throwing it out there.

 

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

It’s really hard to compare. Both were amazing offensively. Coffey has better stats but amazing teammates. Karlsson had great stats as the top offensive player on his team.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Interesting question. How much of a boost do you give Karlsson’s numbers because Coffey played in the 80’s?

Both Norris trophy level defenceman that had a huge impact on the game. I went with Coffey, just because his skating was way ahead of his time and obviously his numbers were quite special.

 

[MrOT]

I did a little experiment to see how far ahead of his peers Coffey was scoring wise away from Gretzky but still in his prime, since I chose 6 years for Karlsson in an example above I did the same for Coffey. The gap between Coffey and his peers actually wasn't more impressive away from Gretzky than Karlsson's gap vs his peers. Might be however that Coffey's peak years was in Edmonton but still this gives some perspective, and Coffey still played alongside Lemieux during 5 of these seasons and actually with Gretzky again in LA in '93, so thinking of that he should have dominated his peers more than Karlsson for this time frame as well if he really was that far ahead of him offensively thinking of the teammates Karlsson had in comparison. Coffey played on 2 Stanley Cup winning Pittsburgh dynasties during this time frame as well. Not exactly the Senator team Karlsson had to drag around.

1.	Paul Coffey (D)	421	121	411	532	1.264	675	1987-1993	6
2.	Raymond Bourque (D)	448	115	368	483	1.078	345	1987-1993	6
3.	Al MacInnis (D)	438	128	353	481	1.098	566	1987-1993	6
4.	Phil Housley (D)	458	140	336	476	1.039	343	1987-1993	6
5.	Gary Suter (D)	444	97	338	435	0.980	641	1987-1993	6

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1.	Erik Karlsson (D)	421	99	286	385	0.914	206	2011-2017	6
2.	Brent Burns (D)	426	115	201	316	0.742	246	2011-2017	6
3.	Dustin Byfuglien (D)	417	90	197	287	0.688	552	2011-2017	6
4.	P.K. Subban (D)	421	59	219	278	0.660	450	2011-2017	6
5.	Shea Weber (D)	439	103	168	271	0.617	283	2011-2017	6
6.	Duncan Keith (D)	427	38	231	269	0.630	163	2011-2017	6

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[The Moose is Loose]

A 48 goal and 90 assists? Yeah this is Coffey.

 

[Samsquanch]

I think you have to pick Coffey here.

With Karlsson you have to play the hypothetical game and ask what numbers he could have posted with a better team (while disregarding the fact that the puck/offense ran soley through him in Ottawa - and things change when you have to share the puck more).

While with Coffey we saw what happens in peak conditions, and it was incredibly devastating and he crushed the league offensively.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Coffey peaked higher. But I'm not sure that necessarily means he was a better player than Karlsson. Coffey played on a stacked team. Karlsson didn't.

 

[Syckle78]

No player in history has scored 180+points without Coffeys help

48 goals, 138 points, 37 playoff points...he was just better offensively

Karlsson ranks very high for offensive peak as a defenseman - but he's behind Coffey

Raw numbers from the 80's playing on a dynasty. Whelp im convinced. Stone cold logic here.

 

[HarryLime]

I don't think I'll ever be able to appreciate Coffey to the full extent. He played on the 80s Oilers and moved to the Mario Penguins. It's hard to accurately say how good he was, at least for me. Not gonna vote for that reason. He obviously is one of the best ever.

 

[Gurglesons]

That's true, still there is Gretzky who fluctuates everything around him and makes all comparisons very difficult, but I hear what you say.

But I'd also say Karlsson's prime resume vs his peers looks rather flattering as well, especially when you factor in he was THE leader on a below average team with very little offensive talent, while also fighting through a career threatening injury during those years, and with the former forward Brent Burns (who at the time wasn't anywhere near Karlsson defensively) as the biggest threat.

1.	Erik Karlsson (D)	421	99	286	385	0.914	206	2011-2017
2.	Brent Burns (D)	426	115	201	316	0.742	246	2011-2017
3.	Dustin Byfuglien (D)	417	90	197	287	0.688	552	2011-2017
4.	P.K. Subban (D)	421	59	219	278	0.660	450	2011-2017
5.	Shea Weber (D)	439	103	168	271	0.617	283	2011-2017

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I wonder what that list would look like if Karlsson played with a player as dominant as Gretzky in his prime during these years. Just throwing it out there.

Letang would've been very close to Karlsson offensively if he had not had a stroke. Their PPG is .85 to .91 during the 2011 - 17 span.

Coffey is Erik Karlsson with the winning pedigree and it isn't like he didn't play defensively in the majority of his cup wins.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't think I'll ever be able to appreciate Coffey to the full extent. He played on the 80s Oilers and moved to the Mario Penguins. It's hard to accurately say how good he was, at least for me. Not gonna vote for that reason. He obviously is one of the best ever.

Coffey was the first "elite" player to come to Mario's Penguins though. He had a big change on that team regardless of being somewhat of an after thought in the 91 cup win due to injury. That being said, his return was a huge catalyst for them running through the North Stars.

 

[HarryLime]

Coffey was the first "elite" player to come to Mario's Penguins though. He had a big change on that team regardless of being somewhat of an after thought in the 91 cup win due to injury. That being said, his return was a huge catalyst for them running through the North Stars.

Yeah and rewatching the Canada Cup 87, he was maybe the best player.

 

[Agent Zub]

Letang would've been very close to Karlsson offensively if he had not had a stroke. Their PPG is .85 to .91 during the 2011 - 17 span.

Coffey is Erik Karlsson with the winning pedigree and it isn't like he didn't play defensively in the majority of his cup wins.

yea but in prime Crosby-Malkin vs Turris-Pageau.

also i don't really buy logic that Karlsson got points because he ran the team. He played only one season with an elite offensive player in Spezza and the chemistry they had was incredible. You watch a Spezza highlight reel from his 84 point season and it effectively doubles as a Karlsson highlight reel. They were like the Sedin twins in how they created space for each other.

 

[Gurglesons]

yea but in prime Crosby-Malkin vs Turris-Pageau.

I’m just speaking more to the fact Karlsson wasn’t on an island in terms of PPG.

 

[ColbyChaos]

Karlsson pretty easily. Got hiss trophies while doing all the work for it and being the driver on his team vs being a 3rd/4th option on his team like Coffey was.

Coffey is very overrated among Dmen. He spent his entire career with the elite players from the 80s Oilers, Mario-Jagr Pens, to the Gretzky-Robatille Kings, then the Russian 5/Yzerman Wings.

Would like to see the gigantic decline in his career numbers going from an incredibly long list of HOFers to Alfredsson, Turris, Bobby Ryan as his best teammates

 

[93LEAFS]

Coffey was still outscoring the 2nd best Dman by a larger % than EK at his peak.

Ill say Coffey RIP.

Unless you know something that hasn't been reported, Paul Coffey is still alive. Unless you meant to say Coffey AITNEC.

 

[93LEAFS]

Karlsson pretty easily. Got hiss trophies while doing all the work for it and being the driver on his team vs being a 3rd/4th option on his team like Coffey was.

Coffey is very overrated among Dmen. He spent his entire career with the elite players from the 80s Oilers, Mario-Jagr Pens, to the Gretzky-Robatille Kings, then the Russian 5/Yzerman Wings.

Would like to see the gigantic decline in his career numbers going from an incredibly long list of HOFers to Alfredsson, Turris, Bobby Ryan as his best teammates

Spezza was probably the Sens best or 2nd best player for Karlsson early elite years, and he was significantly better than Turris and Ryan at there best. Not that it significantly diminishes your argument.

 

[eli4spetterss0n]

The late, great Paul Coffey AINEC. Rumour has it that they're creating the Paul Coffey Memorial Trophy for the best offensive defenseman.

 

[jetsforever]

The phrasing of the OP seems like a loaded question.