Karlsson vs Coffey for peak (read OP)

[joe dirte]

Karlsson should have 4 norris trophies

He should have zero.

 

[snipes]

Karlsson is a poor mans Coffey.

 

[Gurglesons]

Not really.

You make it sound a lot more illustrious than it really was because you're either deliberately ignoring the reality or you're just making assumptions.

He played 46 games for the Pens in 1987-1988. Lemieux missed 21 games in 1989-1990 while Coffey put up 22 points still. Lemieux missed 54 games in 1990-1991. Before Lemieux came back, Coffey had 64 points in 50 games. He was doing just fine holding it down a playoff spot for the Penguins until Lemieux could come back and make the playoffs to go on to win their first Cup.

He played a whopping 108 games on the "Mario-Jagr" Penguins.

He played 60 games for the Kings. He played 10 games in "season 1" with them. Gretzky missed the first 39 games of the 1992-1993 season. Coffey played all those games without him, putting up 45 points. Gretzky returned and they played 11 games together. Judging from their game logs, it looks like he played all of 20 games with Gretzky during his very short stint with the Kings.

Somehow, I guess he just magically won a Norris at age 33 on Detroit and finished 4th in Hart voting simply because he was surrounded by good players. He was deemed most valuable on the best team because of everyone else. Ok.

There's no denying that Coffey played with phenomenal talent throughout his career. But maybe there's a reason for that...because he was a phenomenal talent himself. He was the furthest thing from a player only benefitting from special circumstances and leeching off others.

Yeah. 100%.

That dude just hates the Pens so obviously Coffey gets a downgrade in his book because he was basically the # 2 star for Pitt until the Francis / Stevens / Jags train came through town.

 

[Not Canada Drai]

It's not that he was less concerned with playing defense, it's that he was such a better skater than 95% of the league. Reading the play and having speed to burn leads to enormous amounts of odd man rushes, no different than McDvaid. No different than the seasons you mention from Karlsson, or the young guys coming up today.

Karlsson wasn't any less of an fourth forward, just that Coffey was as good of a skater against much worse skaters, so he exploited people easier. Also, I notice that people always pretend that Methot didnt exist in these Karlsson threads. I'm not part of the crowd that thinks offensive defensemen shouldnt win the Norris, but we cant ignore Methots presence when considering risks that Karlsson took offensively. Karlsson wasn't totally alone on the backend or holding it down all over the ice, like we are lead to believe.

Post lost all credibility at bolded misspelling....

If you don't have season tickets then why even bother posting your opinion??!?

 

[lauraP]

He should have zero.

Who should have won exactly instead of EK?

 

[ColbyChaos]

Yeah. 100%.

That dude just hates the Pens so obviously Coffey gets a downgrade in his book because he was basically the # 2 star for Pitt until the Francis / Stevens / Jags train came through town.

No Coffey is just the poster boy for inflated stats. Especially with his Edmonton numbers. Coffey wouldnt have the same career numbers being forced into the main offensive guy on his team like Karlsson rather than the 3rd/4th option pretty much everywhere he went. Thats not even getting into how trash the 80s were and how role players are accidentally becoming HOF'ers being on the 80s Oilers.

 

[Gurglesons]

No Coffey is just the poster boy for inflated stats. Especially with his Edmonton numbers. Coffey wouldnt have the same career numbers being forced into the main offensive guy on his team like Karlsson rather than the 3rd/4th option pretty much everywhere he went. Thats not even getting into how trash the 80s were and how role players are accidentally becoming HOF'ers being on the 80s Oilers.

Tell me more about Coffey and his inflated stats with the "Jagr/Lemieux" Penguins please.

Coffey wasn't a role player on the Oilers or the Penguins until they literally had one of the best rosters in NHL history and he won a Norris on an absolutely stacked blue line with Detroit.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Coffey was better offensively and defensively than Karlsson.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

No Coffey is just the poster boy for inflated stats. Especially with his Edmonton numbers. Coffey wouldnt have the same career numbers being forced into the main offensive guy on his team like Karlsson rather than the 3rd/4th option pretty much everywhere he went. Thats not even getting into how trash the 80s were and how role players are accidentally becoming HOF'ers being on the 80s Oilers.

Coffey was the second option on the oilers.

But please tell us more about how you dont know whats going on.

 

[McFlash97]

Karlsson doesnt hold Peak Coffeys Jockstrap.


only one defenseman in NHL history was able to top Peak Coffey. Thats Orr.

Coffey was the better skater, passer, and had insane hockey IQ joining the play from the backend. Karlsson may be top 10 in that regard. Coffey was 2nd and arguably 1 on some peoples list.

Prime Karlsson was a poor mans Prime Coffey.

 

[joe dirte]

Karlsson doesnt hold Peak Coffeys Jockstrap.


only one defenseman in NHL history was able to top Peak Coffey. Thats Orr.

offensively you mean, right?

Because Bourque, at his best, was a near 100 point elite defensively dman.

 

[McFlash97]

offensively you mean, right?

Because Bourque, at his best, was a near 100 point elite defensively dman.

Bourque was more consistent, but take a 5 year peak, Coffey trumps him too.


the disrespect Coffey gets on these boards is insane.

guy was basically robbed of 2 Norris trophies due to Edmonton being so dominant. Rod Langway was selected one year over this guy just to change things up , because Gretzky was sweeping most of the awards and heavily skewed voting results. It was a bad look on the NHL is one team would basically sweep all the awards.

 

[snipes]

Bourque was more consistent, but take a 5 year peak, Coffey trumps him too.


the disrespect Coffey gets on these boards is insane.

guy was basically robbed of 2 Norris trophies due to Edmonton being so dominant. Rod Langway was selected one year over this guy just to change things up , because Gretzky was sweeping most of the awards and heavily skewed voting results. It was a bad look on the NHL is one team would basically sweep all the awards.

I love Coffey and he’s the 2nd best offensive D man after Orr, but Bourque was a better all around D man and probably the 2nd best D man of all time or in that conversation.

Coffey for all his offensive brilliance and fantastic skating just isn’t truly in the convo for #2 all around D man. Not a slight to Coffey at all just Bourque was incredible for like a 20 year prime.

 

[McFlash97]

I love Coffey and he’s the 2nd best offensive D man after Orr, but Bourque was a better all around D man and probably the 2nd best D man of all time or in that conversation.

Coffey for all his offensive brilliance and fantastic skating just isn’t truly in the convo for #2 all around D man. Not a slight to Coffey at all just Bourque was incredible for like a 20 year prime.

5 year peak , Coffey beats him. I didn't say career. Bourque had an incredibly long and productive career.


The only dman I would take on my team over 82 to 87 Coffey is probably Orr

 

[joe dirte]

Bourque was more consistent, but take a 5 year peak, Coffey trumps him too.


the disrespect Coffey gets on these boards is insane.

guy was basically robbed of 2 Norris trophies due to Edmonton being so dominant. Rod Langway was selected one year over this guy just to change things up , because Gretzky was sweeping most of the awards and heavily skewed voting results. It was a bad look on the NHL is one team would basically sweep all the awards.

I'm not disrespecting him. I hope you don't think I am. I'm a huge fan of Coffey, and they're obviously the top 2 dmen of that era, and both rank in the top 10 (without trying to make a list) Dmen of all time. I'm not going to argue if you prefer Coffey to Bourque, but that's not going to be most people's sentiments. Preferring a dman like Ray Bourque is hardly disrespect.

 

[snipes]

5 year peak , Coffey beats him. I didn't say career. Bourque had an incredibly long and productive career.


The only dman I would take on my team over 82 to 87 Coffey is probably Orr

He also fit the type of team we had as the high flying all out offensive juggernaut system we played during the 80s.

Teams playing, for instance, say the Devils trap game and the suffocating two way players it required for its success in the 90s would probably take Bourque.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

5 year peak , Coffey beats him. I didn't say career. Bourque had an incredibly long and productive career.


The only dman I would take on my team over 82 to 87 Coffey is probably Orr

no, he doesnt come close overall to beating Bourque in a 5 year peak snapshot.

Bourque's 5 year snapshot is 1986-97 to 1990-91

4x Norris
2x Hart runner up
4x AS-1
1x AS-2

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

5 year peak , Coffey beats him. I didn't say career. Bourque had an incredibly long and productive career.


The only dman I would take on my team over 82 to 87 Coffey is probably Orr

Coffey is one of the all-time great defenceman, but I’d definitely have Orr, Bourque, and Lidstrom all firmly ahead of him.

 

[snipes]

Coffey is one of the all-time great defenceman, but I’d definitely have Orr, Bourque, and Lidstrom all firmly ahead of him.

Shore as well.

4 time Hart trophy winner as a D man which is insane. He hit like Scott Stevens before Stevens was even born, you could argue after Stevens that Shore is the most devastating hitter of all time.

 

[bobholly39]

5 year peak , Coffey beats him. I didn't say career. Bourque had an incredibly long and productive career.


The only dman I would take on my team over 82 to 87 Coffey is probably Orr

You seem to be either vastly overrating Coffey or underrating Orr. Especially if i'm reading your "probably" right - as in, maybe you don't even take Orr above Coffey. Because you take Orr 100% no questions asked, and by a huge margin

Also when you say "Coffey topped Orr" - i assume you mean in raw statistics, goals notably, and not something else. Because simply put - Orr > Coffey, easily so, for offense and peak.

Assuming we're agreed on the above - I think you're also undervaluing Bourque for peak. I have Coffey for his peak extremely high - but Bourque as well. Bourque was runner up to the hart twice - once by probably the smallest margins in history. His offense, playoffs, defense - it's all there, his peak is fantastic. If we're looking at strictly offensive peak, sure edge Coffey. But overall, i'd probably pick Bourque, even though it is close.

 

[bobholly39]

Coffey is one of the all-time great defenceman, but I’d definitely have Orr, Bourque, and Lidstrom all firmly ahead of him.

For peak - Lidstrom isn't all that strong. It's not like he's bad or anything - but Lidstrom is probably a top 3-5 D all time. But for peak, he ranks lower then that.

Shore as well.

4 time Hart trophy winner as a D man which is insane. He hit like Scott Stevens before Stevens was even born, you could argue after Stevens that Shore is the most devastating hitter of all time.

Not to diminish Shore - but i think defensemen winning harts was a more common occurrence back then. It's not quite the same thing as it is in today's league.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

For peak - Lidstrom isn't all that strong. It's not like he's bad or anything - but Lidstrom is probably a top 3-5 D all time. But for peak, he ranks lower then that.



Not to diminish Shore - but i think defensemen winning harts was a more common occurrence back then. It's not quite the same thing as it is in today's league.

Lidstrom controlled the whole game.

Between 2000-2001 and 2005-2006 Lidstrom won four Norris Trophies and a Conn Smyth. Give me prime Lidstrom over prime Coffey all day.

 

[bobholly39]

Lidstrom controlled the whole game.

Between 2000-2001 and 2005-2006 Lidstrom won four Norris Trophies and a Conn Smyth. Give me prime Lidstrom over prime Coffey all day.

Well I did say peak, not prime. 5 year is probably pushing it for Coffey, but for best 2-3 years, he's better than Lidstrom imo. Despite not having a Smythe, he arguably has the better playoff run too.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Well I did say peak, not prime. 5 year is probably pushing it for Coffey, but for best 2-3 years, he's better than Lidstrom imo. Despite not having a Smythe, he arguably has the better playoff run too.

You can pick whatever point in time you want, but Lidstrom is always the better defenceman imo.

At his peak Lidstrom was putting up big numbers while being an absolute shutdown defender in his own zone.

 

[Canovin]

If you like your Coffey lite, then you take Karlsson