Kadri on wing and other thoughts

[Tyler Biggs*]

#KeepKadri

 

[Semantics]

Based on the fact they are one of the top producing lines in the NHL playing the toughest QoC?

They're one of the top producing lines for both the Leafs and the opposition!

 

[King85Kong]

They're one of the top producing lines for both the Leafs and the opposition!

Ya, you never know which team is going to score.

 

[Semantics]

Lead to that amazing 26th place finish.

In the season they made the playoffs:

Corsi Rel QoC:

Bozak 0.858
Grabovski 1.457

Fact of the matter is that for the Leafs to have any team success Bozak needs to have more sheltered minutes. His line for all their scoring prowess is just too terrible defensively. We need Kadri eating up some of those minutes because he's a better possession player than Bozak, and ideally another strong TWO WAY center (not McClement or Bolland).

 

[HonestHockey*]

They're one of the top producing lines for both the Leafs and the opposition!

Bozak finished plus 2 against better QoC than any King center.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

If you say so

People talk about QOC, but forget to include QOT
Bozak QOT %33.0
Kadri QOT %30.3
Bozak plays with better players.
http://www.extraskater.com/players/dashboard?min_gp=25&sort=qot_toi&season=2013&team=tor

Kessel still had more points per minute with Kadri then Bozak.
Bozak on the second line would be horrible for our team. Where would the offense come from?
Kadri put up 50 with Clarkson, doubt Bozak could do that.

I find it absurd that people refer to QOC without referencing QOT, which has at least equal, and likely even more of an effect on results.

For a great example, take a look at Weber and Suter's possession stats before and after Suter went to Minnesota. (Hint: They have both gotten considerably worse, despite the fact that their matchups are the same).

 

[HonestHockey*]

In the season they made the playoffs:

Corsi Rel QoC:

Bozak 0.858
Grabovski 1.457

Fact of the matter is that for the Leafs to have any team success Bozak needs to have more sheltered minutes. His line for all their scoring prowess is just too terrible defensively. We need Kadri eating up some of those minutes because he's a better possession player than Bozak, and ideally another strong TWO WAY center (not McClement or Bolland).

Sorry wrong. In the season they made the playoffs:

QoC TOI%:

Bozak 29.3%
Grabovski 28.9%

QoC TOI% rel

Bozak +1.5%
Grabovski +1%

Source: extra skater

This season:

Bozak 30.2% QoC second only to Toews as a center. And finished a plus 2
Kadri 28.6% QoC or 95th best center in the league. And finished a minus 12

Kadri can't play against better QoC. Until the Leafs fix line 2 at center we are in trouble.

 

[Semantics]

Bozak finished plus 2 against better QoC than any King center.

So in other words, while playing with the top two wingers on the team and in front of one of the better goalies in the league, he's barely treading water. The Leafs need a real #1C that can help that line from being scored against on just as much as it scores.

 

[HonestHockey*]

I find it absurd that people refer to QOC without referencing QOT, which has at least equal, and likely even more of an effect on results.

For a great example, take a look at Weber and Suter's possession stats before and after Suter went to Minnesota. (Hint: They have both gotten considerably worse, despite the fact that their matchups are the same).

QoT can be driven by your ability to make those teammates better. See joffery Lupul 2011-12.

Did Kadri make his line mates better?

 

[HonestHockey*]

So in other words, while playing with the top two wingers on the team and in front of one of the better goalies in the league, he's barely treading water. The Leafs need a real #1C that can help that line from being scored against on just as much as it scores.

No the leafs need a second line center who can plays some minutes against a better QoC. Like winning teams do. Take a look at how far down the NY centres are.

 

[Semantics]

Sorry wrong. In the season they made the playoffs:

QoC TOI%:

Bozak 29.3%
Grabovski 28.9%

Nope. You're using the wrong stat. Anything TOI% is not what you want to be using, as what you're seeing is simply a reflection the fact that Bozak played lots of minutes.

What we're discussing here is the difficulty of the minutes the player actually played, not how many minutes they got.

 

[King85Kong]

I find it absurd that people refer to QOC without referencing QOT, which has at least equal, and likely even more of an effect on results.

For a great example, take a look at Weber and Suter's possession stats before and after Suter went to Minnesota. (Hint: They have both gotten considerably worse, despite the fact that their matchups are the same).

Yup, don't understand it. Got to take both into account.

 

[HonestHockey*]

Nope. You're using the wrong stat. Anything TOI% is not what you want to be using, as what you're seeing is simply a reflection the fact that Bozak played lots of minutes.

What we're discussing here is the difficulty of the minutes the player actually played, not how many minutes they got.

Exactly. What % of minutes against the QoC is the most accurate assessment bc it takes in all 5 on 5 mins.

Sorry man keep cherry picking.

 

[nsleaf]

Kadri can be great, just needs the right wingers, coach, patience, smarter defensive play,stay off the wing, etc. I can't wait till all those ducks line up.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

QoT can be driven by your ability to make those teammates better. See joffery Lupul 2011-12.

Did Kadri make his line mates better?

Similarly to how QOC can be driven higher by your inability to contain the opposition.

The point is to take both into account. Not ignore one entirely.

And yes, Kadri definitely made his teammates better. Who do you think was the best player on each of the following lines?

JVR-Bozak-Kessel
Lupul-Kadri-Clarkson/Kulemin

Kadri is the runaway favourite on the second. I'd expect Bozak to finish a distant 3rd on his. Common sense prevails when evaluating which players elevate those around them.

 

[King85Kong]

Similarly to how QOC can be driven higher by your inability to contain the opposition.

The point is to take both into account. Not ignore one entirely.

And yes, Kadri definitely made his teammates better. Who do you think was the best player on each of the following lines?

JVR-Bozak-Kessel
Lupul-Kadri-Clarkson/Kulemin

Kadri is the runaway favourite on the second. I'd expect Bozak to finish a distant 3rd on his. Common sense prevails when evaluating which players elevate those around them.

Very true. Both QOC and QOT should be taken into account.

Good luck with explaining it. We tried at length with no luck. Ignore list is your friend. Threads have cut down in half, by ignoring 01 or 2 posters. Otherwise you'll be going around in circles, explaining the same thing.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Very true. Both QOC and QOT should be taken into account.

Good luck with explaining it. We tried at length with no luck. Ignore list is your friend. Threads have cut down in half, by ignoring 01 or 2 posters. Otherwise you'll be going around in circles, explaining the same thing.

I tend to like discussions with people who have a different viewpoint than mine, since it makes me consider my own logic.

But...the other point of view has to be logical.

 

[Semantics]

Exactly. What % of minutes against the QoC is the most accurate assessment bc it takes in all 5 on 5 mins.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

A player who plays 30 minutes a game vs the other team's 4th line would likely have a higher QoC TOI% than a player who plays 10 minutes vs the other team's 1st line. It's pretty obvious that the second player is the one facing the tougher competition.

The fact that Bozak has a slightly higher QoC TOI% only suggests that he was used in a bigger role than Grabovski. But the fact that their numbers were almost equal despite Grabo getting way less ice time overall shows that Grabovski played against MUCH TOUGHER competition!

 

[King85Kong]

I tend to like discussions with people who have a different viewpoint than mine, since it makes me consider my own logic.

But...the other point of view has to be logical.

I agree, good to have other view points, makes for a healthy discussion, and gets you to question your own views. But no point beating your head against a wall, when the other person has their ears plugged.

 

[Purity*]

Absolutely it does, and it should. Lets blame Kadri for performing above the average second line center in the NHL but not blame his **** wingers who scored a combined 5 points more than him. This is how stupid this all sounds. On one line you have a center who can't keep up with his wingers offensively, and on the other the wingers can't keep up with their center. Your logic= first center is obviously better. Real logic= second center holds this **** together

Tell this to the two [MOD] who figure Kadri is responsible for how crappy the second line was this year. Their argument is going to be even worse when Bozak goes back to being a 40-50 point guy who's offensive skills are nowhere near that of his wingers he plays with, however if Bozak continues his 70 point pace into next year I will gladly stand corrected. I'm 99% sure it's Kadri who will demonstrate superior skills at center if he's not stuck with Clarkson again. Bozak finally has one offensive year where he doesn't look completely useless on the 1st line and all of a sudden he's amazing. With his offensive skillset, don't count on him to continue that pace.

Kadri can be great, just needs the right wingers, coach, patience, smarter defensive play,stay off the wing, etc. I can't wait till all those ducks line up.

Bozak can be great, he just needs world-class offensive talent to play with, coach, #1 PP time, #1 O-zone start time, smarter defensive play and maybe he'll top 50 points one day! Can't wait 'til all them ducks line up too!

 

[Diatomic]

No the leafs need a second line center who can plays some minutes against a better QoC. Like winning teams do. Take a look at how far down the NY centres are.

Do you know how many teams would kill for a 23 year old offensive 50 point #2C? Just because bozak has never surpassed 50 points and has never been a plus player despite being carried by his allstar linemates doesn't mean you go around fixing the 2nd line and throwing secondary players like Kadri under the bus.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

I agree, good to have other view points, makes for a healthy discussion, and gets you to question your own views. But no point beating your head against a wall, when the other person has their ears plugged.

True, but it's still fun watching shoddy arguments crumble.

The scary part is that I'm not sure who Leaf management would agree with.

 

[HonestHockey*]

Do you know how many teams would kill for a 23 year old offensive 50 point #2C? Just because bozak has never surpassed 50 points and has never been a plus player despite being carried by his allstar linemates doesn't mean you go around fixing the 2nd line and throwing secondary players like Kadri under the bus.

Bozak was +2 just this year. And hey I'd be all for Kadri if he didn't play 3rd and 4th liners as a 2.

 

[HonestHockey*]

Tell this to the two [MOD] who figure Kadri is responsible for how crappy the second line was this year. Their argument is going to be even worse when Bozak goes back to being a 40-50 point guy who's offensive skills are nowhere near that of his wingers he plays with, however if Bozak continues his 70 point pace into next year I will gladly stand corrected. I'm 99% sure it's Kadri who will demonstrate superior skills at center if he's not stuck with Clarkson again. Bozak finally has one offensive year where he doesn't look completely useless on the 1st line and all of a sudden he's amazing. With his offensive skillset, don't count on him to continue that pace.



Bozak can be great, he just needs world-class offensive talent to play with, coach, #1 PP time, #1 O-zone start time, smarter defensive play and maybe he'll top 50 points one day! Can't wait 'til all them ducks line up too!

How do you know what Bozak can do without Kessel and JVR or Lupul? So far he's been busy helping them all have career years.

 

[HonestHockey*]

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

A player who plays 30 minutes a game vs the other team's 4th line would likely have a higher QoC TOI% than a player who plays 10 minutes vs the other team's 1st line. It's pretty obvious that the second player is the one facing the tougher competition.

The fact that Bozak has a slightly higher QoC TOI% only suggests that he was used in a bigger role than Grabovski. But the fact that their numbers were almost equal despite Grabo getting way less ice time overall shows that Grabovski played against MUCH TOUGHER competition!

You have no idea what quality of competition is do you? QoC TOI% is based on the % of ice against the QoC. A player playing 30 mins against a fourth line would have a lower QoC TOI% then that of a player playing 10 mins against a first line. The total time has nothing to do with the rating but who they play against has everything to do regardless of time. It's a % against who.