Kadri, how is this even possible?

[IPS]

(Yes, I'm aware I'm probably the last person who should say something about this considering the amount of time I've spent on the defensive against just the kind of outliers you mention in your post.)

I was already hypothesizing my response to you before you threw this in.

You should consider that the garbage posts getting a disproportionate amount of attention makes for a great litmus test. I despise when contrasting opinions get disregarded around here when they bring up valid points, I've never been a fan of the echo-chamber around here.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I was already hypothesizing my response to you before you threw this in.

You should consider that the garbage posts getting a disproportionate amount of attention makes for a great litmus test. I despise when contrasting opinions get disregarded around here when they bring up valid points, I've never been a fan of the echo-chamber around here.

Absolutely. Heck, I've learned a lot of what I know from people who disagreed with me and had the eloquence to make their case.

 

[Pookie]

Then isn't he running the show without you there to fight back?

Is he?

He always made up what I said anyways. He’s probably happier responding to what he believes I said instead of what I actually wrote.

I don’t think HOF would even let me take him off ignore.

 

[RLF]

Absolutely. Heck, I've learned a lot of what I know from people who disagreed with me and had the eloquence to make their case.

You're welcome.

 

[nsleaf]

The bias on both sides is hard to take sometimes. It is why reasonable debates about Naz cannot be had.

You have
Group A. -Ardent Kadri supporters who attack as soon as anyone suggests he is not as great as they feel
Group C. -Those who are unfairly knocking Naz in order to try and show group A that he is not everything they think he is.
Group B. - Hopefully the largest group that can give him compliments but also can see a wart when one exists (Group A will be all over me for that last part. lol)

I vote for Group B.

 

[nsleaf]

Is he?

He always made up what I said anyways. He’s probably happier responding to what he believes I said instead of what I actually wrote.

I don’t think HOF would even let me take him off ignore.

I wonder if his ears are burning?

 

[notDatsyuk]

Go on, I'm listening.

Over the last 3+ seasons, he has consistently been among the worst in +/- on the team, and in even strength goals allowed.


2015-16: -15 (Holland worst at -16) and 63 ESGA (the most, Komarov second most with 50).

2016-17: -7 (the worst, while Komarov was the best) and 64 ESGA (the most, Hyman second most at 49).

2017-18: +2 (middle of the pack, worst was -4) and 53 ESGA (behind Marleau (62), Nylander (56), and Marner (55), while Komarov was on for 35).

2018-19: -8 (the only minus on the team), and 22 ESGA (behind Tavares and Marner at 25).

Over the last 3+ seasons, he has about 30% more ES ice time (as a Leaf) than Bozak and Komarov, who are supposed to be the bad ones. Kadri has been on for 202 ESGA (3.09 per 60), compared to Bozak's 147 (2.94) and Komarov's 130 (2.68).

Kadri hasn't been terrible, but those numbers show that he has not been good defensively at 5-on-5.

You can't blame it all on his wingers, because since he and Komarov were split up, his stats have gotten worse, while Leo's have improved.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Kadri hasn't been terrible, but those numbers show that he has not been good defensively at 5-on-5.

Yeah, this is a point I've made many times over the last two years. What makes Kadri valuable isn't that he's a great two-way center. It's that he's a great offensive talent who can push play even against top opposition.

 

[caramelontop]

Team is winning right now (2nd overall IN THE LEAGUE as of this post) and THAT'S what matters. We are headed to playoffs (90% certainty?). Some with scoring touch right now will lose that touch by then and it will be time for someone else to get their groove back. I truly hope it will be Kadri among others who shine in those moments. When you are winning and leading the whole time, the pressure is reduced a bit and maybe that's what is happening with him since we have all seen he plays his best hockey when pressure is ON. GLG and keep winning.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Group C is all but non existent apart from maybe 1-2 posters, problem is group A sometimes puts people from group B in C if they say anything critical.

Anyways hopefully his clutch goal Saturday helps turn things around or the new lines work out a little better for him.

FYP.

Did you just call pookie a village idiot

LMAO.

Over the last 3+ seasons, he has consistently been among the worst in +/- on the team, and in even strength goals allowed.

2015-16: -15 (Holland worst at -16) and 63 ESGA (the most, Komarov second most with 50).

2016-17: -7 (the worst, while Komarov was the best) and 64 ESGA (the most, Hyman second most at 49).

2017-18: +2 (middle of the pack, worst was -4) and 53 ESGA (behind Marleau (62), Nylander (56), and Marner (55), while Komarov was on for 35).

2018-19: -8 (the only minus on the team), and 22 ESGA (behind Tavares and Marner at 25).

Over the last 3+ seasons, he has about 30% more ES ice time (as a Leaf) than Bozak and Komarov, who are supposed to be the bad ones. Kadri has been on for 202 ESGA (3.09 per 60), compared to Bozak's 147 (2.94) and Komarov's 130 (2.68).

Kadri hasn't been terrible, but those numbers show that he has not been good defensively at 5-on-5.

You can't blame it all on his wingers, because since he and Komarov were split up, his stats have gotten worse, while Leo's have improved.

If you think all this is valid then you may well be the only one who thinks +- is this meaningful. It may not be a completely useless stat but it needs a TON of context to have any value at all and just as an example, you haven't even began to consider usage so honestly, this analysis of yours is pretty much worthless. JMHO.

 

[Pookie]

I wonder if his ears are burning?

It’s healthier to not wonder.

Sadly though, some good posters like @Nithoniniel got caught up in his crap on this issue. Letting emotions rule the logic.

Oh well.

I think that those not on ignore can appreciate a life turnaround, a good player a good contract .... that might have to be moved for a position of need and/or a cap sacrifice.

These folks can appreciate what a bell curve graph tends to show and recognize that there is an optimum time to move someone. If you can address need or cap...you do it.

 

[Leafblooded]

LOL the decline. It’s been 20 games since his best season ever.

I'm a big Kadri fan, I don't like it as much as the next guy. I hope I'm wrong

 

[The Apologist]

Yeah, this is a point I've made many times over the last two years. What makes Kadri valuable isn't that he's a great two-way center. It's that he's a great offensive talent who can push play even against top opposition.

Well said.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Yeah, this is a point I've made many times over the last two years. What makes Kadri valuable isn't that he's a great two-way center. It's that he's a great offensive talent who can push play even against top opposition.

He's a great opportunist, for sure. Over the last 3+ seasons, he leads he Leafs I goals, but has the highest % of them on the PP, and the most empty net ones. Of his 89 goals, only 52 have been on a goalie at even strength. I'm not being critical, but just pointing out some of the things that can hide his not do great defence.

 

[notDatsyuk]

FYP.



LMAO.



If you think all this is valid then you may well be the only one who thinks +- is this meaningful. It may not be a completely useless stat but it needs a TON of context to have any value at all and just as an example, you haven't even began to consider usage so honestly, this analysis of yours is pretty much worthless. JMHO.

That was part of why I pointed out more that just +/-, and also addressed usage and context.

 

[Gary Nylund]

That was part of why I pointed out more that just +/-, and also addressed usage and context.

No, you haven't addressed usage at all. You've completely ignored the fact that he has been going up against the top lines around the league while his line-mates have been typically bottom 6 quality. If he were to break even under those circumstances he'd basically be Batman.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Yeah, this is a point I've made many times over the last two years. What makes Kadri valuable isn't that he's a great two-way center. It's that he's a great offensive talent who can push play even against top opposition.

I believe you were the one who coined the term "match-up centre" which was adopted by many posters and definitely describes Kadri much better than "shut-down centre" which people started calling him right around the time he had that one cool OT shift against McDavid.

 

[Duke Silver]

That was part of why I pointed out more that just +/-, and also addressed usage and context.

Did you, though? There's nothing in here about quality of competition faced or zone starts.

Usage is more than just minutes. It's deployment.

 

[nsleaf]

Kadri now gas the best teammates he's ever played with, there's got to be someone who can compliment his game.

 

[Duke Silver]

Kadri now gas the best teammates he's ever played with, there's got to be someone who can compliment his game.

It begins with Nylander's return, which should push Kapanen or Marleau down to his line.

 

[Budsfan]

Yeah, this is a point I've made many times over the last two years. What makes Kadri valuable isn't that he's a great two-way center. It's that he's a great offensive talent who can push play even against top opposition.

Being a 3rd line center however does not lend itself to being a scoring line and few teams have 3 scoring lines, this is why there are so many here, that want to put players like Nylander and Kapanen on that 3rd line, which is ridiculous your best players are in the top 6.
Probably with the addition of Nylander, Marleau will likely play L/W on the 3rd line and that should give the 3rd line a little punch but that is an awful lot of cap on the 3rd line and with the cap crunch this may be the last year we see this.

 

[notDatsyuk]

No, you haven't addressed usage at all. You've completely ignored the fact that he has been going up against the top lines around the league while his line-mates have been typically bottom 6 quality. If he were to break even under those circumstances he'd basically be Batman.

Right. I completely did not mention at all his most common linemate while playing against top competition. How could I possibly not have mentioned Komarov at all?

Oh, wait. I did. In fact, he was the one I mentioned the most!

 

[Gary Nylund]

Right. I completely did not mention at all his most common linemate while playing against top competition. How could I possibly not have mentioned Komarov at all?

Oh, wait. I did. In fact, he was the one I mentioned the most!

So you think you addressed usage because you mentioned Komarov, got it. Nice talking to ya.

 

[AuGsY]

Kadri is a borderline 1c/high end 2c. We would be stupid to move him and this point. Keep the center depth!

 

[stickty111]

Its pretty sad that you arent allowed to blame Kadri's wingers, but the player that just left in free agency, all people did was blame the wingers for the defensive issues the line had. It was never the centre's fault.