Kadri Discussion Thread - Keep Him or Trade Him (New Poll)

[Gary Nylund]

How can you compare Kadri to the mentioned players with a straight face.

The question was - what has Kadri accomplished. Putting up ES numbers the way he has is a reasonable answer no?

The question has to be asked.. Would you trade Kadri for either of Kopitar or Tavares straight up one for one ? You can use as your argument that Kadri already said he is equal in talent to Taveras..

I don't think anybody would make those trade straight up. Now why don't explain how in the world Kadri has produced better at ES than Tavares over the last 3 seasons?

 

[Snow Dog]

Anyone with a pulse would trade Kadri for Duchene, you missed the point.

If his stats are comparable to Duchene's what is the difference in the player considering Duchene plays with better linemates.

 

[share]

I don't think anybody would make those trade straight up. Now why don't explain how in the world Kadri has produced better at ES than Tavares over the last 3 seasons?

You are the one using silly stats to back up your arguments so you explain it . Gary Nylund I did not realize it was you that made this post. I always respected your opinion but you have gone behond what I would have expected on this one. I like Kadri also but will never use his name in a thread with the names that you use. I have accepted that he will not be a better center than a number 2 on any team and a number 3 on most teams.. If you step back you will see the very same center as I do..

 

[Snow Dog]

The question was - what has Kadri accomplished. Putting up ES numbers the way he has is a reasonable answer no?



I don't think anybody would make those trade straight up. Now why don't explain how in the world Kadri has produced better at ES than Tavares over the last 3 seasons?

Playing against 2nd and 3rd liners until recently.The opponent focuses on shutting down the Bozak line.

 

[Stand Witness]

Keep. No need to trade him when he easy young enough to fit in the long term plan and lead the way.

Both him and Holland can be our temporary 1-2 punch and we should be perfect for the tank.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You are the one using silly stats to back up your arguments so you explain it . Gary Nylund I did not realize it was you that made this post. I always respected your opinion but you have gone behond what I would have expected on this one. I like Kadri also but will never use his name in a thread with the names that you use. I have accepted that he will not be a better center than a number 2 on any team and a number 3 on most teams.. If you step back you will see the very same center as I do..

Silly stats? It's not my fault Kadri has produced the way he has. Listen if someone would have asked me who has been more productive at ES, Tavares or Kadri I would have guessed Tavares. If someone had told me Kadri is among the top 10 centres for ES production over the last 3 years, I would have said no way. Yet it's true. I was surprised at those numbers but they are what they are.

Some have said well he plays against the other teams 2-3 lines. So do a ton of other centres, yet no-one produces like he has.

I'm not saying he is a top 10 centre in the NHL. As I said, I was just responding the the question what has he accomplished. The way I see it, his ES production is definitely an accomplishment. Would you not agree?

I would also add that I definitely see Kadri as a solid number 2 centre. You say he would be a number 3 on most teams and no better than a number 2 on any team? Well for starters, he's our best centre and should be the #1 so that's at least one team where the is the best. And no way are there 60 centres better than him. Sure there are some teams with 2 centres that are better but he's no worse than number 2 on a ton of teams.

 

[Snow Dog]

Silly stats? It's not my fault Kadri has produced the way he has. Listen if someone would have asked me who has been more productive at ES, Tavares or Kadri I would have guessed Tavares. If someone had told me Kadri is among the top 10 centres for ES production over the last 3 years, I would have said no way. Yet it's true.

Some have said well he plays against the other teams 2-3 lines. So do a ton of other centres, yet no-one produces like he has.

I'm not saying he is a top 10 centre in the NHL. As I said, I was just responding the the question what has he accomplished. The way I see it, his ES production is definitely an accomplishment. Would you not agree?

He's #56 in points for centers this season.he has 30 pts,of which 26 are ES.Not bad,not good.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

Kadri has shown good character answering for the team's woes and has placed some of the responsibility on himself.
http://www.tsn.ca/talent/kessel-scorn-has-gone-too-far-1.207895

“This isn’t basketball,†said Nazem Kadri when questioned on the subject, “this isn’t baseball where someone can really put a team on their back and just have an individual effort and win them the game."

“Him and Dion for sure take the brunt of it,†Kadri said of the criticism. “But I don’t think they really deserve what they get. Sure, everyone’s got some flaws – nobody’s perfect. And there’s definitely things that [they] and us as a team can work on, but you can’t point fingers at one particular person. This is a team game and Phil or Dion, they can’t do it themselves, theyneed us to help them.â€

 

[HockeyCA]

Silly stats? It's not my fault Kadri has produced the way he has. Listen if someone would have asked me who has been more productive at ES, Tavares or Kadri I would have guessed Tavares. If someone had told me Kadri is among the top 10 centres for ES production over the last 3 years, I would have said no way. Yet it's true.

Some have said well he plays against the other teams 2-3 lines. So do a ton of other centres, yet no-one produces like he has.

I'm not saying he is a top 10 centre in the NHL. As I said, I was just responding the the question what has he accomplished. The way I see it, his ES production is definitely an accomplishment. Would you not agree?

What's the point of making a comparison if you agree the comparison is ludicrous? And if the comparison is ludicrous, what does that say about the evidence you are using to make the comparison? Seems to me that if you are going to try and use evidence to make a comparison, you should at least agree with it. Otherwise, aren't you actually implicitly saying the evidence you're using is flawed in some way? Not sure how you can say otherwise.

 

[81Reasons]

He's #56 in points for centers this season.he has 30 pts,of which 26 are ES.Not bad,not good.

Too many people want to look at stats and stats alone, but that is way to simplistic. I personally have not been too high on Kadri because I don't think he has the ability to take it to a much higher level offensively. More important than his offensive stats is his two way game which is not strong enough.

Prior to a rebuild I thought he'd be the guy to trade simply because with Phil, Bozak, and Lupul, we are lacking size/grit/two way game and Kadri is in the same category. Because of that I thought his trade value could've been used to add a more important piece. However now that it appears we are going for a real rebuild, I'd keep him around and see what he can do with the added expectation of being the leader offensively. My hopes are not high, but even if he fails at least we can feel good about not giving up on players too early.

 

[The Thin White Duke]

Kadri has shown good character answering for the team's woes and has placed some of the responsibility on himself.
http://www.tsn.ca/talent/kessel-scorn-has-gone-too-far-1.207895

Probably just nitpicking here, but it's interesting that Kadri sees it as "they" and "us". "They" as in the leadership core? The highly paid guys?

 

[AD1066]

Probably just nitpicking here, but it's interesting that Kadri sees it as "they" and "us". "They" as in the leadership core? The highly paid guys?

I think he's still talking about "Phil and Dion" from the preceding sentence.

 

[realgoodleafs]

Probably just nitpicking here, but it's interesting that Kadri sees it as "they" and "us". "They" as in the leadership core? The highly paid guys?

Yeah you are nitpicking.

 

[Gary Nylund]

What's the point of making a comparison if you agree the comparison is ludicrous? And if the comparison is ludicrous, what does that say about the evidence you are using to make the comparison? Seems to me that if you are going to try and use evidence to make a comparison, you should at least agree with it. Otherwise, aren't you actually implicitly saying the evidence you're using is flawed in some way? Not sure how you can say otherwise.

This was the post I was responding to:

Try to enlighten me about what Kadri has accomplished without using the words "scoring pace" or "potential" in your answer if you can. I don't think you can, as he hasn't accomplished anything. I am not making that up, I am pointing out a fact. Is getting promoted from the Marlies an accomplishment? You be the judge.

In response, I pointed out Kadri's ES per minute production. As I said before, I think that qualifies as an accomplishment. Do you disagree? We're talking about a sample size of more than 2 full seasons, I think it's pretty darn impressive.

 

[leafs in five]

The opponent focuses on shutting down the Bozak line.

or scoring on the Bozak line

 

[Nithoniniel]

In response, I pointed out Kadri's ES per minute production. As I said before, I think that qualifies as an accomplishment. Do you disagree? We're talking about a sample size of more than 2 full seasons, I think it's pretty darn impressive.

It for sure is impressive. I have a hard time taking anyone seriously if they want to dismiss that outright.

I've seen some point to this and then blame the lacking PP production solely on Clarkson though. That's not fair. Kadri has simply not been good at the PP this year, his distribution and decision making has been sub-par. If he can improve on this, and we know that he can do better from earlier in his career where this was an area he was great in, then he'll be a very productive player.

All things considered (even strength effectiveness, special teams effectiveness, quality of competition and teammates, opportunities offered) he's been very good for us.

EDIT: I also like the talk about "mumbo jumbo statistics". Yeah, point production in even strength is such a weird concept, right?

 

[Nithoniniel]

GA60

Robidas 1.51
Rielly 2.50
Gardiner 2.56
Holzer 2.67
Phaneuf 2.81
Franson 3.06
Polak 3.14

And he has the 2nd best Corsi Rel on the D after Gardiner. Just saying.

Edit: on further consideration the above is a bit misleading since there's a wide variation in save percentage for these d-men which is mostly luck. Here are the numbers adjusted to a 0.920 level.

Gardiner 2.35
Franson 2.53
Robidas 2.61
Polak 2.64
Rielly 2.72
Holzer 2.75
Phaneuf 2.80

So Rielly hasn't been great in terms of getting scored on, but it's not like he's drastically worse than most of our d. Oh, and look at Gardiner, he's really picked it up since the coaching change and is now solidly our top defender in terms of both possession stats and goals against. This guy is criminally underrated around here. If he can keep up these types of numbers his contract will be a steal.

Seems Gardiner is back to where he usually is. Among our best D-men in terms of GA/60 and possession.

Did you get those adjusted stats from somewhere or did you calculate them yourself?

 

[Snow Dog]

or scoring on the Bozak line

That too.

 

[Gary Nylund]

He's #56 in points for centers this season.he has 30 pts,of which 26 are ES.Not bad,not good.

Just curious, earlier you said the stats I mentioned were silly - how do you make the determination of which stats are silly, and which stats are not?

Too many people want to look at stats and stats alone, but that is way to simplistic. I personally have not been too high on Kadri because I don't think he has the ability to take it to a much higher level offensively. More important than his offensive stats is his two way game which is not strong enough.

Prior to a rebuild I thought he'd be the guy to trade simply because with Phil, Bozak, and Lupul, we are lacking size/grit/two way game and Kadri is in the same category. Because of that I thought his trade value could've been used to add a more important piece. However now that it appears we are going for a real rebuild, I'd keep him around and see what he can do with the added expectation of being the leader offensively. My hopes are not high, but even if he fails at least we can feel good about not giving up on players too early.

It will interesting to watch for sure. Imagine if we jettison Kessel, Bozak and Phaneuf before next season starts. Kadri will be the #1 centre on a very bad team. Yes, very interesting indeed. Now imagine if Kadri is traded as well like some would like to see, who is the #1 centre then, Holland. Interesting is not the word of that were to happen.

It for sure is impressive. I have a hard time taking anyone seriously if they want to dismiss that outright.

I've seen some point to this and then blame the lacking PP production solely on Clarkson though. That's not fair. Kadri has simply not been good at the PP this year, his distribution and decision making has been sub-par. If he can improve on this, and we know that he can do better from earlier in his career where this was an area he was great in, then he'll be a very productive player.

All things considered (even strength effectiveness, special teams effectiveness, quality of competition and teammates, opportunities offered) he's been very good for us.

EDIT: I also like the talk about "mumbo jumbo statistics". Yeah, point production in even strength is such a weird concept, right?

I agree Kadri has been good. He's in a strange spot (stuck behind Bozak) and has done pretty well. If it does happen that this roster is torn down and Kadri is the #1 centre on a very bad team, it will a very tough situation for him but also an opportunity for him to rise to a huge challenge. It will be interesting to say the least.

 

[Durrr]

He's #56 in points for centers this season.he has 30 pts,of which 26 are ES.Not bad,not good.

Pretty good for a second liner. If he had his ppp point pace from last season he'd be on pace for 58 points, too bad the 2nd unit has struggled.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

You are the one using silly stats to back up your arguments so you explain it . Gary Nylund I did not realize it was you that made this post. I always respected your opinion but you have gone behond what I would have expected on this one. I like Kadri also but will never use his name in a thread with the names that you use. I have accepted that he will not be a better center than a number 2 on any team and a number 3 on most teams.. If you step back you will see the very same center as I do..

You do realize this 2015 and that calling the stats that are widely accepted and proven silly, is rather silly?

No ones saying that Kadri is equal or better than Tavares. There are numerous factors. But to say that Kadri is not close is ridiculous. The problem with this team is that the 1st line does not consist of their best centre but their best winger. No other team in the NHL is like this, including Washington (Backstrom 1st line). All statistics point toward him being a similar player to Tavares in a year or two.

Most say "What no way! ____ is 10 times better than Kadri". I took the initiative to watch Tavares games for a couple of weeks and let me say that the way he plays is not much different than Kadri's.

 

[darrylsittler27]

Kadri's value

Right now is about $4M but he could become a $5M if given the right wingers. Structered between $4M to $5M for 5 years is fair, not sure if Kadri's agent agrees. If he is reasonable keep him if not upgrade.

 

[Durrr]

Right now is about $4M but he could become a $5M if given the right wingers. Structered between $4M to $5M for 5 years is fair, not sure if Kadri's agent agrees. If he is reasonable keep him if not upgrade.

Upgrade with what lol, we don't have an NHL centermen besides Peter Holland if we trade Kadri (Bozak will be moved).

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Upgrade with what lol, we don't have an NHL centermen besides Peter Holland if we trade Kadri (Bozak will be moved).

Jokinen to the rescue.

 

[ConnorTO]

surprised if kadri asks for more than four