Justin Holl Cannot Play Another Minute In The Playoffs

Notsince67

Papi and the Lamplighters
Apr 27, 2018
16,102
11,295
There were 2 teams in the expansion draft who opted to protect 4 D and 4 F. Us and our current playoff opponent. Tampa did it to protect Hedman, McDonagh, Sergachev and Cernak. Leafs did it to protect Rielly, Brodie, Muzzin and Holl.

29 other NHL teams did not carry a defensemen that they deemed as valuable as Holl that warranted protection. That's how lucky we are in Leafs nation to have such a stacked defense.
The issue with a stacked defense is that even though the right decision is to swap Holl for Lil, it is more likely that Keefe uses the excuse of stacked defensive depth to run an 11-7 lineup

I’d waive Holl today if i was Dubas.
I'd fire Keefe and put Manny in charge
 
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Larcos_Unal

Excuses are for losers
Jul 6, 2007
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Toronto
The issue with a stacked defense is that even though the right decision is to swap Holl for Lil, it is more likely that Keefe uses the excuse of stacked defensive depth to run an 11-7 lineup


I'd fire Keefe and put Manny in charge
I'd rather buck the trend and give the job to a guy who doesn't need NHL training wheels.

bowen.gif
 

Clark4Ever

What we do in hockey echoes in eternity...
Oct 10, 2010
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I don't think Keefe has the stones to take Holl out of the lineup despite the overwhelming evidence to support it. At most, he might insert Liljegren and go 11-7, which would be better than nothing at this point. Rotate Holl and Liljegren with Giordano and pray that neither of them get exploited.

As others have mentioned, Liljegren really should have been brought in earlier in the series and is in a very difficult position now. Keefe has no one to blame but himself.
 

Larcos_Unal

Excuses are for losers
Jul 6, 2007
5,499
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Toronto
I don't think Keefe has the stones to take Holl out of the lineup despite the overwhelming evidence to support it. At most, he might insert Liljegren and go 11-7, which would be better than nothing at this point. Rotate Holl and Liljegren with Giordano and pray that neither of them get exploited.

As others have mentioned, Liljegren really should have been brought in earlier in the series and is in a very difficult position now. Keefe has no one to blame but himself.
It's almost like Keefe force fed the 11/7 scheme down the finish line to ensure he'd have a spot for Holl.

Listen guys, no point getting bend out of shape. Keefe will either reduce Holl's minutes or they'll get eliminated and he'll be fired. Shitty thing is, another wasted year of Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares.
 
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shaner82

Registered User
Apr 18, 2017
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Has anyone gone back to watch every goal that tampa has scored while Holl has been on the ice to see how many goals were a direct result of something Holl did or if he just happened to be on the ice? I'm too lazy to do it right now, just curious if anyone else has done it.
From memory, some are absolutely his fault. He's played horrible. Admittedly, some weren't entirely his fault and were the result of bad goaltending or poor play by other players. But even on those plays, he was often out of position, or got turned around, or showed no instincts to cover another player, etc.
 

IceColdBear

Registered User
Apr 5, 2016
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656
Guess what, we're still up 3-2 with Holl playing in every game.

Holl is a fine bottom-pairing guy, and the hate he is getting right now is ridiculous - makes me not want to associate myself with this fanbase (felt the same way when Rielly was getting shit on by idiots during the regular season). No one was calling Keefe an idiot for playing Holl after we were up 3-1 with him playing those four games.

Liljegren is more talented, and deserves to play, and I have no doubt he'll get in to the lineup in game 6.
 
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Oct 15, 2014
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Guess what, we're still up 3-2 with Holl playing in every game.

Holl is a fine bottom-pairing guy, and the hate he is getting right now is ridiculous - makes me not want to associate myself with this fanbase (felt the same way when Rielly was getting shit on by idiots during the regular season). No one was calling Keefe an idiot for playing Holl after we were up 3-1 with him playing those four games.

Liljegren is more talented, and deserves to play, and I have no doubt he'll get in to the lineup in game 6.

People were definitely calling out Keefe. Just because we had won 3 in a row, doesn't mean the lineup was perfect and shouldn't have been changed. The 4th line and Gio-Holl pair were awful on the road and got exposed again in game 5. Bunting was eligible to play and likely should've subbed in for ZAR or Lafferty. Lily should've been inserted much sooner.
 

Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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I've never understood how this guy has had his supporters. Mind blowing.

Justin Holl is more of a referendum on coaching and management decisions than a player that anyone would gravitate towards to on style or merit. He's a player type that is unremarkable when things are going well and catastrophic when not. Historically you're talking about a Cory Cross, Aki Berg level defender.
 

HamiltonNHL

Parity era hockey is just puck luck + draft luck
Jan 4, 2012
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Justin Holl is more of a referendum on coaching and management decisions than a player that anyone would gravitate towards to on style or merit

:highclap:

At the end of the day, both Holl knew it was stupid for him to play game 6 and Keefe isn’t dumb enough to put him in the lineup.
 

ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
Aug 19, 2002
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Justin Holl is more of a referendum on coaching and management decisions than a player that anyone would gravitate towards to on style or merit. He's a player type that is unremarkable when things are going well and catastrophic when not. Historically you're talking about a Cory Cross, Aki Berg level defender.
Berg and Cross were both better than Holl.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
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Berg and Cross were both better than Holl.

Feel free to rank them however you want, but I think of them as number 5-6 guys who should be on the third pair but can be the junior partner on the second pair.

Bigger guys who play more in the gentle giant mode.

Holl is probably the worst of all three in terms of not playing a committed physical brand of simple hockey. Tries to do more than his skillset allows, and isn't honest about just putting the body into separating player from puck.

Berg was probaby the worst in terms of nervous breakdowns under heavy pressure, but this was also Dead Puck Era when the physicality was more intense. He was a big hitter on occasions.

Cory Cross was more solid than the other two but I recall him being just very limited with the mobility and looked very low skill.
 

stickty111

Registered User
Jan 23, 2017
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I don't think Keefe has the stones to take Holl out of the lineup despite the overwhelming evidence to support it. At most, he might insert Liljegren and go 11-7, which would be better than nothing at this point. Rotate Holl and Liljegren with Giordano and pray that neither of them get exploited.

As others have mentioned, Liljegren really should have been brought in earlier in the series and is in a very difficult position now. Keefe has no one to blame but himself.

People were definitely calling out Keefe. Just because we had won 3 in a row, doesn't mean the lineup was perfect and shouldn't have been changed. The 4th line and Gio-Holl pair were awful on the road and got exposed again in game 5. Bunting was eligible to play and likely should've subbed in for ZAR or Lafferty. Lily should've been inserted much sooner.
Liljegren should have been playing in game 5 where Keefe could at least control the matchups. Now if he plays game 6, he's putting Liljegren in a tough spot but the change has to happen.
 
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rielledup

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Sep 17, 2015
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I understand people being pissed if Keefe doesn't take Holl out after last game, but I'm curious for the people who thought he already should've been out before game 5 when do you think Keefe should've taken him out?
 

Oscar Peterson

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Jun 27, 2015
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I understand people being pissed if Keefe doesn't take Holl out after last game, but I'm curious for the people who thought he already should've been out before game 5 when do you think Keefe should've taken him out?
I wouldn’t have had him in the lineup to start the playoffs, when role is factored in he’s at best our #7 and probably #9 in terms of actual talent. But knowing he started, I would have for sure scratched him by game 2, it was pretty unacceptable the way he got embarrassed by Perry on his very first shift of the game, that was not NHL calibre defence.
 
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rielledup

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Sep 17, 2015
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I wouldn’t have had him in the lineup to start the playoffs, when role is factored in he’s at best our #7 and probably #9 in terms of actual talent. But knowing he started, I would have for sure scratched him by game 2, it was pretty unacceptable the way he got embarrassed by Perry on his very first shift of the game, that was not NHL calibre defence.
Yea, he made 3 mistakes in game 1 that lead to goals.
 
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Future

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Feb 8, 2011
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Guess what, we're still up 3-2 with Holl playing in every game.

Holl is a fine bottom-pairing guy, and the hate he is getting right now is ridiculous - makes me not want to associate myself with this fanbase (felt the same way when Rielly was getting shit on by idiots during the regular season). No one was calling Keefe an idiot for playing Holl after we were up 3-1 with him playing those four games.

Liljegren is more talented, and deserves to play, and I have no doubt he'll get in to the lineup in game 6.

Makes you embarrassed to be associated with this fan base? Have you watched leafs games with fans of other teams? They literally point out how terrible Holl is and ask why the heck he’s in the lineup! I literally receive text messages during the games from people talking about the guy.

It isn’t just leafs fans that see it, it’s blatantly obvious to anyone with working eyes!
 

saltming

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Oct 6, 2015
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I understand people being pissed if Keefe doesn't take Holl out after last game, but I'm curious for the people who thought he already should've been out before game 5 when do you think Keefe should've taken him out?
Personally I thought it was questionable starting him at all. I understood the reasons why Keefe made the choice but statistically Holl and Gio were the worst pairing on our team by and far, so to start and stick with them as a tandem was odd.
Lili and Gio on the other hand are pretty good.
Holl being on the ice for like 80% of the goals against his pretty sketchy. Keefe comment to that regard of he's not the only one in the ice is true but when Holl is the direct cause of those goals, or the majority of them, by either a bad read or not being in position, :dunno:
 
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rielledup

Registered User
Sep 17, 2015
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Personally I thought it was questionable starting him at all. I understood the reasons why Keefe made the choice but statistically Holl and Gio were the worst pairing on our team by and far, so to start and stick with them as a tandem was odd.
Lili and Gio on the other hand are pretty good.
Holl being on the ice for like 80% of the goals against his pretty sketchy. Keefe comment to that regard of he's not the only one in the ice is true but when Holl is the direct cause of those goals, or the majority of them, by either a bad read or not being in position, :dunno:
In fairness I do think the goals against thing is a bit misleading because he plays on the pk a lot. After rewatching the goals in this series most of the goals that he's been on the ice for on the pk didn't have anything to do with him. He did legitimately play bad in game 1 and 5 though.
 

SoftDumpNtheCorner88

Registered User
Jul 5, 2020
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I understand people being pissed if Keefe doesn't take Holl out after last game, but I'm curious for the people who thought he already should've been out before game 5 when do you think Keefe should've taken him out?
After Game 3.

Holls only had one good game and that was game 2.. which Tampa played bad and a lot of Leafs had a good showing that day. He's been terrible ever since.

I like that Keefe kept the line up after the 3 wins in a row for game 5 but Holl should of been the only exception. He's been terrible.
 

likecheese

Registered User
Oct 21, 2019
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I understand people being pissed if Keefe doesn't take Holl out after last game, but I'm curious for the people who thought he already should've been out before game 5 when do you think Keefe should've taken him out?
That idiot play he made right after we opened the scoring in game 5 and had all the momentum, should have had the cops remove him at gunpoint.
 

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