JT vs. Mats Sundin

[MSZ]

renberg hardly played with lindros in the 1994 season

And a barely PPG winger with Lindros the next three years.

He is no Mogilny for sure.

 

[Mad hatter]

The best part of Matts game I believe was how clutch he was. When a goal was needed or in OT he was the man.

 

[thewave]

So JT?

That's right... Who is, JT for 500 Alec

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

2 big franchise centres drafted first overall exactly 20 years apart (pretty much a generation). Mats Sundin was just finishing his career when JT was drafted. Both were captains of NHL teams. Both have excellent goal scoring skills, very good playmakers. Both make players around them better. Who would you take on your team in their prime? JT really reminded me a lot of Sundin the way he can score goals as a centreman, particularly.

They are both excellent, 2nd tier stars and both very consistent. But I take Sundin if only because he had one other element I haven't seen from JT: he had a knack for clutch goals when we needed them most.

 

[Eye of Ra]

And a barely PPG winger with Lindros the next three years.

He is no Mogilny for sure.

which wingers had over ppg with lindros? nobody.

 

[Jackson14]

Sundin everyday. Guy played in the height of the clutch and grab era and was still a point per game. He would be dominant these days.

 

[Fogelhund]

Easily prime Sundin, over Prime JT. Sundin was a dominant player, 6'5" and could use that size to his advantage.

 

[The Shadow]

Very sad Mats didn’t get a cup

He captained team Sweden to their 2006 Gold at the Olympics

Do you remember his 500th NHL goal overtime winner? A slap shot that the goalie never saw.

He controlled the puck down low and was just a beast

 

[666]

I take Sundin too but the two are very comparable. Both made their wingers significantly better for theit entire careers basically.

I feel like a lot of people still have a scewed view of Marner. Tavares is the one that carried him. not the other way around. It's not a coincedence that Hyman and Marner both had career years playing with JT.

This is just wrong. The second that Marner got away from Blozak and JVR he started scoring at something like at 1.15 PPG pace. He was at roughly the same pace with Marleau and Kadri as he was with JT. Now, if they got rid of Hyman and put a real winger on that line then all three of them would hit 100 points but Marner was not carried by JT any more than JT was carried by Marner.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

This is just wrong. The second that Marner got away from Blozak and JVR he started scoring at something like at 1.15 PPG pace. He was at roughly the same pace with Marleau and Kadri as he was with JT. Now, if they got rid of Hyman and put a real winger on that line then all three of them would hit 100 points but Marner was not carried by JT any more than JT was carried by Marner.

 

[666]

View attachment 240673

This means nothing. Marner's ice time without JT is a small sample but more importantly WHO did Marner play with and AGAINST when he wasn't playing with JT? Same goes for JT. This is basic statistics abuse by people who don't understand statistics.

 

[TheScandal89]

Sundin was one of a kind. Never gave him enough at a time we could spend as much as we wanted .

The salary cap was a big wake up call for us, as we learned the hard way that you cant fix your problems with free agency and trading picks.

 

[KuleminFan41]

Honestly, I love jt... but I take sundin 100 times out of 100. The guy shifted the ice every time he was on. He never had wingers the likes of marner (save mogilny* sp? for those 2 yrs) and he carried the team every year. Plus the consistency, an absolute lock for 70+ pts every single year like clockwork. This coming when it was clutch and grab and most of his career was when the offence couldn't get stretched as much due to 2 line passes still being a thing.

Who did John Tavares play with that was elite in New York? No one. Tavares carried the Islanders for a decade and got them to 3 playoff appearances during his time there. He scored over 80 points on 3 separate occasions, also had 2 seasons where he scored 46 points in 47 games and 66 points in 59 games. So I'm not sure where this idea that Marner is padding his stats, when it was Marner who saw a 25 point increase playing next to Tavares. There's even an article about players regressing once leaving the Islanders.

How John Tavares's linemates have cashed in post-Islanders - Sportsnet.ca

 

[Toronto makebeleifs]

Who did John Tavares play with that was elite in New York? No one. Tavares carried the Islanders for a decade and got them to 3 playoff appearances during his time there. He scored over 80 points on 3 separate occasions, also had 2 seasons where he scored 46 points in 47 games and 66 points in 59 games. So I'm not sure where this idea that Marner is padding his stats, when it was Marner who saw a 25 point increase playing next to Tavares. There's even an article about players regressing once leaving the Islanders.

How John Tavares's linemates have cashed in post-Islanders - Sportsnet.ca

Literally nowhere in my reply did I say marner was padding JT's stats. I did, however, raise a logical point that Mitch marners skill level is superior to any winger that sundin had in his tenure with the leafs. Tell me with a straight face (if you only want to argue point totals) that in a hypothetical scenario Sundin puts up as many points with marner flanking him as he did with nik freaking antropov

 

[Beaumaris]

Preferred Dougie to Sundin,and I know I'm going to think the same of JT. Fire away guys.

 

[ACC1224]

View attachment 240673

This chart is meaningless without context.

 

[moon111]

I voted Dougy Gilmour.

 

[KuleminFan41]

Literally nowhere in my reply did I say marner was padding JT's stats. I did, however, raise a logical point that Mitch marners skill level is superior to any winger that sundin had in his tenure with the leafs. Tell me with a straight face (if you only want to argue point totals) that in a hypothetical scenario Sundin puts up as many points with marner flanking him as he did with nik freaking antropov

I never said you specifically stated Marner padded his stats, but it was pretty clear you were trying to infer it. This isn't the first time around here that people suggest Marner has padded his stats and by bringing him up as the reason Sundin is automatically better, completely ignores Tavares' time with the Islanders. Which is why I brought up how he made his line mates look better than they are, very similar to Sundin did, because that's what great centres do. You tried to side step the issue of linemates by quickly moving on from Mogilny , who mind you was a very great player even if injury prone. He was in Toronto for 3 seasons, including leading scorer with 79 points one year and you have to remember, the Leafs were not only built differently then, scoring wasn't as high as it is today either.

Sundin is a better player than John Tavares, but my problem stems with trying to take away from Tavares because he played 1 season with Marner so far. It ignores the fact that Tavares hasn't had the greatest linemates either. And, if Sundin had Marner flanking him, we simply do not know how many more points Sundin would have, the reason being? Tavares saw 4 point increase and didn't have Marner with him in New York.

 

[Dough72]

a few posts mentioning that Sundin had it tougher because of the era. It was actually easier for top players to get points back then (goalie equipment I guess). It wasn't even a big deal to get 50 goals back then. Even Sundins outlier season of 114 points he didn't finish in the top10. Without looking it up I doubt he ever reached top10 for points in a season. If one of them had it easier putting up points beause of their era it's Sundin.

 

[Chungo2]

Cant really put one over the other. Love both for different reasons and more sentimental reasons.

JT was a Toronto boy who left his team to be a Leaf. Sundin was pretty much drafted by the Leafs.

The game is way different as well, where I would say Sundins game matched the play way of his time.

Still love Sundin late years in the corner, looking up, yelling at Antropov to move his ass all while keeping the puck in his possession lol

 

[TheProspector]

This isn't even close. It's Sundin every day. In fact, Sundin was better at practically every facet of the game. Faster, stronger, better slapshot, better wrist shot, better backhand, better passer, better defensively, top-5 player modern era in puck battles, ...

Tavares, with a much better supporting cast, just put up a career year, 47G & 88P. But he did that in an era with much higher league scoring -- 2.81 goals per game.

Mats came into the league just before the dead puck era took hold, and played most of his career when clutching-and-grabbing and waterskiing were legitimate defensive plays. If peak Mats were to play in today's NHL, the game would be a 60 minute Leafs power play.

 

[Dough72]

This isn't even close. It's Sundin every day. In fact, Sundin was better at practically every facet of the game. Faster, stronger, better slapshot, better wrist shot, better backhand, better passer, better defensively, top-5 player modern era in puck battles, ...

Tavares, with a much better supporting cast, just put up a career year, 47G & 88P. But he did that in an era with much higher league scoring -- 2.81 goals per game.

Mats came into the league just before the dead puck era took hold, and played most of his career when clutching-and-grabbing and waterskiing were legitimate defensive plays. If peak Mats were to play in today's NHL, the game would be a 60 minute Leafs power play.

but the 80s/90s "clutch and grab" era as people are putting it (should be called the "way more entertaining hockey" era) had significantly higher scoring. Although Sundin only benefited from a handful of those seasons since scoring dipped pretty sharply around 1998 he still had it overall easier than Tavares the first 10 years of their careers. For comparison Tavares first 10 seasons in the league the GAA was 2.66 goals, 2.61 goals, 2.54 goals, 2.54 goals, 2.56 goals, 2.52 goals, 2.51 goals, 2.59 goals, 2.78 goals, 2.81 goals. For Sundin's first 10 season in the "way more entertaining hockey" era it was 3.35 goals, 3.37 goals, 3.53 goals, 3.14 goals, 2.89 goals, 3.04 goals, 2.80 goals, 2.53 goals, 2.56 goals, 2.64 goals.

 

[Superstar]

Honestly, I love jt... but I take sundin 100 times out of 100. The guy shifted the ice every time he was on. He never had wingers the likes of marner (save mogilny* sp? for those 2 yrs) and he carried the team every year. Plus the consistency, an absolute lock for 70+ pts every single year like clockwork. This coming when it was clutch and grab and most of his career was when the offence couldn't get stretched as much due to 2 line passes still being a thing.

He played through the era of mugging, clutching and grabbing...he would have guys literally draped all over him and there wouldn't be a penalty.

 

[BM14]

renberg was a good player. 40-50 pointer with grit. before renberg got injured he was a 70-80 pointer with lighting speed. not a bad player.

He hit 82 points in his rookie year and never hit 60 points after that.

Renberg was slightly above average after his rookie year that had him centered by Recchi for most of the year with some time spent with Lindros.

 

[Stephen]

renberg was a good player. 40-50 pointer with grit. before renberg got injured he was a 70-80 pointer with lighting speed. not a bad player.

Renberg was not the same player he had been in is early career on the Legion of Doom by the time he got here. Seem to recall he had a bad shoulder injury and maybe some lower body issues that robbed him of the speed he once had.