JT vs. Mats Sundin

BodaciousBeefBazooka

Go Leafs Go
Apr 4, 2013
3,730
1,324
Toronto
I don't know if I'm weird but I would search on youtube every now and then Mats Sundin number retirement ceremony from like 2012 just to here one last time Andy Frost say "Number 13, Mats sundin" I get shivers and it flows so nicely partly because Sundin/Thirteen rhyme and the nostalgia just hits me like a little kid in the 90's again collecting pokemon cards, playing with my tomagachi, reading goosebumps books, watching are you afraid of the dark on YTV....Jesus...
 

robertmac43

Forever 43!
Mar 31, 2015
23,452
15,566
Sundin for sure for me. JT does everything right, Sundin did that in a more dominant way.
 

notDatsyuk

Registered User
Jul 20, 2018
9,888
7,782
Easily Sundin so far, although it's possible that could change.

Easily Gilmour too.

Sundin/Gilmour is a much more interesting debate.
 

authentic

Registered User
Jan 28, 2015
25,882
10,945
I just typed a huge response as to why this should be Tavares so far but the window exited accidentally before I got to send it. Long story short Tavares has better and more finishes in the top 10 in points, per game, goals, per game, and assists and no top 10 assists per game for Sundin. Tavares has 22 points in 24 playoff games and Sundin had 70 in 77. Also the dead puck era was not lower scoring than this era from 2011-17, infact for top line players it was mostly lower in this recent time span. Tavares is also 8th among active points per game leaders and I don't believe Sundin was ever close to that at any point in his career. I also don't believe we can play the linemates card here either when Tavares was stuck on long island for his first 10 of 11 seasons.

Don't get me wrong I watched Sundin from the early - mid 90s onwards and he appeared more dominant than Tavares, slightly (though I'm not sure how much of this is the biased Leafs fan in me + nostalgia). Statistically though compared to his peers he simply wasn't.
 
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tmlms13

Registered User
Apr 11, 2012
6,623
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Waterloo, Ontario
I just typed a huge response as to why this should be Tavares so far but the window exited accidentally before I got to send it. Long story short Tavares has better and more finishes in the top 10 in points, per game, goals, per game, and assists and no top 10 assists per game for Sundin. Tavares has 22 points in 24 playoff games and Sundin had 70 in 77. Also the dead puck era was not lower scoring than this era from 2011-17, infact for top line players it was mostly lower in this recent time span. Tavares is also 8th among active points per game leaders and I don't believe Sundin was ever close to that at any point in his career. I also don't believe we can play the linemates card here either when Tavares was stuck on long island for his first 10 of 11 seasons.

Don't get me wrong I watched Sundin from the early - mid 90s onwards and he appeared more dominant than Tavares, slightly (though I'm not sure how much of this is the biased Leafs fan in me + nostalgia). Statistically though compared to his peers he simply wasn't.

Look at some of the players who were during Sundin's prime. It was the Golden Age of #1 centers. Yzerman, Sakic, Gretzky, Mario, Forsberg, Lindos (for a few years), Modano, Federov, Messier etc.
 

authentic

Registered User
Jan 28, 2015
25,882
10,945
Look at some of the players who were during Sundin's prime. It was the Golden Age of #1 centers. Yzerman, Sakic, Gretzky, Mario, Forsberg, Lindos (for a few years), Modano, Federov, Messier etc.

Yeah I'm not sure that's enough to give Sundin the clear edge. Even if we exclude Gretzky and Lemieux which is the only reasonable thing to do I still don't see how it's Sundin clearly.
 

Eye of Ra

Grandmaster General of the International boards
Nov 15, 2008
18,166
4,587
Malmö, Sweden
He hit 82 points in his rookie year and never hit 60 points after that.

Renberg was slightly above average after his rookie year that had him centered by Recchi for most of the year with some time spent with Lindros.

ehm. he had 57 points in 47 games in 94-95 season, the season after that he had 43 points 51 games. he was GREAT in 3 straight seasons then he got injued which f***ed up his speed.

this is what some philly fans had to say about renberg:

"Comparing him to Raffl is massively underselling him. Think more along the lines of Voracek before the injuries -- a true SSS wing. The LoD overshadows everything else historically, but he was a first line, impact winger from day one both with and without Lindros. Even Eklund-Butsayev-Renberg played out extremely well his rookie year.

The injuries happened and they detract from the historical package, but I will argue anyone who tells me he wasn't the second most talented player on the LoD. His body just couldn't keep it together."


"He was my favorite player on the LOD. Pre-groin injury, he was a monster. I don't know who I'd compare him to on the current team, though I agree that he was more Voracek than Raffl, but really he had a pretty distinct style. Maybe Voracek if he drove the net with speed more often would be a decent comp? Not really though, he didn't really play with his back to the guy defending him the way Jake likes to, he more liked to cut in with the puck at high speed and create chaos, as did E.

Oh, and he was productive with and without Lindros, so he wasn't just a product of someone else. IMO, he was a better player than LeClair until he got hurt and lost his speed / mojo."

"Renberg was like Voracek but a lot stronger and less flashy. Really skilled, tenacious player."

"Renberg is one of my all time favorite players. Big, fast, power guy, but I think he was more of a complimentary player. I think he'd fit in nicely playing on Giroux's wing."

"Before suffering one of the worst sports hernias in NHL annals (there was almost a 100 percent tear) Renberg's point-per-game average held steady regardless of his center. Some of his best games came when Lindros was out of the lineup due to injury.

"I would liken Renberg to Jakub Voracek; big and powerful, with a strong inside cut and powerful lower body to protect the puck. Jake is a little more creative than Renberg was, although Renberg could dish to an open man as well. Renberg was a little better finisher than Jake until various hand and shoulder injuries."

"Pre injury: i would take renberg over leclair overall....he was absolutely tenacious and very skilled. He was for sure at the same level of voracek today. Pretty sad if you think about it, injuries affected his career more than lindros. Renberg only had a 2-3 year run in his prime before the abdominal tear. It was a sad day when he left to TB knowing that not only renberg was no longer a flyer, but the original renberg never appeared again."


"Renberg was one of the reasons how I became a fan of the Flyers. Being a Swede and no real connection with any team over there, but a genuine hockey interest, it was during this era that I started reading news and following the results the best I could, watch highlights. Just like people have already mentioned he never was the same type of player after the injuries. It was a bit fun though to catch some games with him after he moved back here."
 

BM14

Registered User
Dec 7, 2012
5,976
3,981
GTA
ehm. he had 57 points in 47 games in 94-95 season, the season after that he had 43 points 51 games. he was GREAT in 3 straight seasons then he got injued which ****ed up his speed.

this is what some philly fans had to say about renberg:

"Comparing him to Raffl is massively underselling him. Think more along the lines of Voracek before the injuries -- a true SSS wing. The LoD overshadows everything else historically, but he was a first line, impact winger from day one both with and without Lindros. Even Eklund-Butsayev-Renberg played out extremely well his rookie year.

The injuries happened and they detract from the historical package, but I will argue anyone who tells me he wasn't the second most talented player on the LoD. His body just couldn't keep it together."


"He was my favorite player on the LOD. Pre-groin injury, he was a monster. I don't know who I'd compare him to on the current team, though I agree that he was more Voracek than Raffl, but really he had a pretty distinct style. Maybe Voracek if he drove the net with speed more often would be a decent comp? Not really though, he didn't really play with his back to the guy defending him the way Jake likes to, he more liked to cut in with the puck at high speed and create chaos, as did E.

Oh, and he was productive with and without Lindros, so he wasn't just a product of someone else. IMO, he was a better player than LeClair until he got hurt and lost his speed / mojo."

"Renberg was like Voracek but a lot stronger and less flashy. Really skilled, tenacious player."

"Renberg is one of my all time favorite players. Big, fast, power guy, but I think he was more of a complimentary player. I think he'd fit in nicely playing on Giroux's wing."

"Before suffering one of the worst sports hernias in NHL annals (there was almost a 100 percent tear) Renberg's point-per-game average held steady regardless of his center. Some of his best games came when Lindros was out of the lineup due to injury.

"I would liken Renberg to Jakub Voracek; big and powerful, with a strong inside cut and powerful lower body to protect the puck. Jake is a little more creative than Renberg was, although Renberg could dish to an open man as well. Renberg was a little better finisher than Jake until various hand and shoulder injuries."

"Pre injury: i would take renberg over leclair overall....he was absolutely tenacious and very skilled. He was for sure at the same level of voracek today. Pretty sad if you think about it, injuries affected his career more than lindros. Renberg only had a 2-3 year run in his prime before the abdominal tear. It was a sad day when he left to TB knowing that not only renberg was no longer a flyer, but the original renberg never appeared again."


"Renberg was one of the reasons how I became a fan of the Flyers. Being a Swede and no real connection with any team over there, but a genuine hockey interest, it was during this era that I started reading news and following the results the best I could, watch highlights. Just like people have already mentioned he never was the same type of player after the injuries. It was a bit fun though to catch some games with him after he moved back here."

You posted a bunch of quotes. That doesn't change the fact he only eclipsed 57 points once.
 

Eye of Ra

Grandmaster General of the International boards
Nov 15, 2008
18,166
4,587
Malmö, Sweden
You posted a bunch of quotes. That doesn't change the fact he only eclipsed 57 points once.

its a fact that his 3 first seasons was very good and the injuries slown him down. getting 82 points as a rookie without almost playing with lindros says it all.
 

Cap'n Flavour

Registered User
Mar 8, 2004
4,956
1,657
Flavour Country
but the 80s/90s "clutch and grab" era as people are putting it (should be called the "way more entertaining hockey" era) had significantly higher scoring. Although Sundin only benefited from a handful of those seasons since scoring dipped pretty sharply around 1998 he still had it overall easier than Tavares the first 10 years of their careers.

Nobody is calling the 80s the clutch and grab era, sheesh. Clutch and grab peaked from 98 to 04.
 

colchar

Registered User
Apr 26, 2012
7,465
1,250
2 big franchise centres drafted first overall exactly 20 years apart (pretty much a generation). Mats Sundin was just finishing his career when JT was drafted. Both were captains of NHL teams. Both have excellent goal scoring skills, very good playmakers. Both make players around them better. Who would you take on your team in their prime? JT really reminded me a lot of Sundin the way he can score goals as a centreman, particularly.


I hated Sundin so would take JT every time.
 

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