Jordan Staal

[Joe McGrath]

The Pens offered Staal the same exact deal he took in Carolina. Staal wasn't happy playing third fiddle in Pittsburgh, and wasn't going to re-sign. That became very clear, and Shero pulled the trigger. And I don't believe Shero would've taken a deal that didn't involve Sutter coming back the other way.

He was saying Jordan didn't want to sign for 10 years in Pittsburgh. He would have taken a short term deal. I don't know if that's true or not.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

He was saying Jordan didn't want to sign for 10 years in Pittsburgh. He would have taken a short term deal. I don't know if that's true or not.

I believe shortly after signing the deal with Carolina, someone asked him why he rejected the same deal in Pittsburgh. I don't have the exact quote, but it amounted to Jordan realizing if he signed the Pittsburgh deal, he would never get a chance to play with Eric in his career. Something he wanted to do.

If Pittsburgh had offered him a shorter deal, that opportunity to play with Eric would still have existed after the deal was over.

 

[turd]

I believe shortly after signing the deal with Carolina, someone asked him why he rejected the same deal in Pittsburgh. I don't have the exact quote, but it amounted to Jordan realizing if he signed the Pittsburgh deal, he would never get a chance to play with Eric in his career. Something he wanted to do.

If Pittsburgh had offered him a shorter deal, that opportunity to play with Eric would still have existed after the deal was over.

Perhaps. I feel that he was pretty set on going to Carolina, regardless. I'm happy with the deal, though, as a Pens fan. I like Sutter a lot more than I ever liked Staal when he was here, although I'm clearly in the minority if you read the Staal thread on the Pens board.

 

[normalpsychology]

Again, I guess you missed the part where both Toronto and the Rangers were confirmed as also being in serious talks with Pittsburgh for Jordan. And there were rumors that Minnesota and Buffalo were also sending feelers out there.

And this is ignoring the fact that Pittsburgh still had the opportunity to resign Jordan. It was the length of their original offer that was the problem, not anything about him not wanting to play in Pittsburgh. Had they offered him a 2-3 deal, he likely would have taken it.

JR overpaid, yes, but out of necessity.

Toronto and the Rangers can talk all they want, but it doesn't mean Jordan is listening. JR overpaid because he made a (another) poor decision. Jordan wouldn't have signed anything longer than 1 year. He was set on coming to Carolina soon.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Toronto and the Rangers can talk all they want, but it doesn't mean Jordan is listening. JR overpaid because he made a (another) poor decision. Jordan wouldn't have signed anything longer than 1 year. He was set on coming to Carolina soon.

Can you provide any kind of substantiation for those statements?

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Yes, because there's such a difference between playing with Marc and playing with Eric that there's certainly no way that Jordan really would have gone to the Rangers.

Again, it's easy to say in hindsight that JR could have gotten Jordan for free. At the time, however, JR saw 3 other teams (and possibly up to 5) competing for Jordan and made the deal that guaranteed Carolina would end up with him, rather than risk losing him.

Yes, there's a chance Jordan would have ended up in Carolina if JR had stayed put. There's also a chance Jordan would have signed with Pittsburgh on a shorter term deal (leaving JR pretty high and dry for that 2nd line C position). There's also a chance Toronto or the Rangers trade for him, he ends up liking the organization, and decides Carolina isn't all that necessary.

There are plenty of deals and signings to rip into JR for. Acquiring a young, proven 2nd line center who just happens to be the brother of your franchise player...yeah, that ain't one of them

 

[TheBigKahuna]

Carolina defensemen listed by Relative Corsi

Joe Corvo 8.7
Bobby Sanguinetti 8.0
Joni Pitkanen 6.5
Jamie McBain 4.7
Michal Jordan 4.0
Tim Gleason -1.1
Justin Faulk -6.2

Strong indicator of defensive ability.

Next week on ........

 

[OntarioFisherman*]

There are plenty of deals and signings to rip into JR for. Acquiring a young, proven 2nd line center who just happens to be the brother of your franchise player...yeah, that ain't one of them

Even if there was a 5% chance of JStaal coming to carolina they should have taken the chance. We had Sutter who is just as good or better as JStaal is turning out to be. JStaal has been totally insignificant up to this point. We would have had Sutter and Dumoulin and more $$$.

Even if JStaal wasn't going to come to Carolina we overpaid.

 

[bleedgreen]

Who cares if we overpaid? Anyone was going to overpay in players and/or money to get him. It's the cost of improvement. Arguing over whether or not we overpaid instead of just rooting for the team we've got is just a waste of time.

It was expensive. Even if we overpaid we still won the trade, as in we got what we needed and the best player at the same time.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Even if there was a 5% chance of JStaal coming to carolina they should have taken the chance. We had Sutter who is just as good or better as JStaal is turning out to be. JStaal has been totally insignificant up to this point. We would have had Sutter and Dumoulin and more $$$.

Even if JStaal wasn't going to come to Carolina we overpaid.

Are you serious? He was one of the best players on the ice when the team was doing well, leads our forwards in PK time, is over 50% on faceoffs and leads the entire team in hits by a large margin. How is that "totally insignificant"?

I'll tell you one thing, as screwed as we are right now we'd be a LOT screwed-er if we didn't have a second-line center.

 

[Ole Gil]

This thread has been sponsored by the Facebook fan page.

 

[bleedgreen]

I know it. Insignificant?!?

Tough crowd around here. Do we seriously want to go back to jokinen and sutter behind staal? That team sucked.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Even if there was a 5% chance of JStaal coming to carolina they should have taken the chance. We had Sutter who is just as good or better as JStaal is turning out to be. JStaal has been totally insignificant up to this point. We would have had Sutter and Dumoulin and more $$$.

Even if JStaal wasn't going to come to Carolina we overpaid.

...So you're advocating a 95% chance of losing the player vs. a 100% chance of getting a player because we overpaid by losing two pieces that might be average NHL players someday.

Genius.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Good grief. The board on the whole hates Skinner, J. Staal, E. Staal, Ward, Gleason, Pitkanen, Harrison, Corvo, LaRose, Ruutu, Jokinen, McBain, Sanguinetti, Muller, Rutherford, Karmanos, Tripp...is there anybody we don't dislike?

 

[TheBigKahuna]

You forgot McBain!

 

[bleedgreen]

Anyone cheap. That's all anyone likes on hf in general. The second a guy cashes in it starts going downhill. Everyone you mentioned gets paid. It will happen to sutter too, as soon as he gets overpaid.

Harrison doesn't get overpaid at all, ill amend. I have no idea why anyone hates that guy.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

You forgot McBain!

Fixed and added a few more

 

[Oenatzu]

Everybody loves Dan Ellis.

 

[TheBigKahuna]

I don't hate any player. I hate how guys like LaRose were mishandled by coaching staff. I hate the contracts guys like Gleason and Ruutu get. I hate the fans who put certain players on pedestals and make them into cult heroes, deserving or not. LaRose, Gleason, and Ruutu are the 3 best examples of that. These guy reach cult hero status, JR signs them long term, and they stink out loud, obviously well overpaid for what they bring to the game. hate the game, not the playa.

Most fans are so delusional about these cult hero players, that they see things that don't exist, like all those people at PNC who yell jeers at Pitkanen, every time Gleason falls down and plays the "red pylon game". They will not admit that Gleason is a dud, and take their frustrations out on Pitkanen or Corvo...who were on the bench when the bonehead play happened!

 

[nobuddy]

And that's exactly why you'd also expect their GA/60 numbers to be the best on the team.

Hey look, Jeff Skinner has a better GA/60 than Jordan Staal this year. Probably coincides with his team-leading relative Corsi. Clearly, he is the most solid two-way player on the team.

And Jamie McBain and Kevin Westgarth have the best GA/60 at their positions. We should definitely jump to a conclusion based on that number, because it accurately reflects defensive ability, amirite?

Um, this post would be useful except I wasn't the one who brought Corsi into the discussion. That was Highway to Cap Hell, and I was arguing against it.

And GA/60 is only useful when supplemented with Qualcomp and Qualteam ratings, which I did.

The fact of the matter is that Sutter faced tougher competition, played with worse line mates, and STILL had a much lower GA60.

You're trying to use GA60 against me by using outliers and those who play against the weakest competition. I guess strawman arguments are legitimate statistical analysis now.

 

[GoCanes2013]

Are you serious? He was one of the best players on the ice when the team was doing well, leads our forwards in PK time, is over 50% on faceoffs and leads the entire team in hits by a large margin. How is that "totally insignificant"?

I'll tell you one thing, as screwed as we are right now we'd be a LOT screwed-er if we didn't have a second-line center.

Agree 100%. JStaal seems to be the only one (now maybe Ruutu) who can go into the corners/boards, fight battles and make a difference. He works hard in the hard spaces. He's doing much more than our Martyr Brandon Sutter is in PIT, and he's playing with Skinner.

I really don't know what more people want from him except a few more points.

 

[Anton Babchuk]

I'm too lazy to click on the back page and find the previous post, but there was a post via Staal making $4M more than Sutter and how big a deal that is.

That's for one season, next year (the difference for this year is $2M) . If Sutter were to play anywhere near as good as people think he is capable of (I call these people delusional, but that's beside the point), then the difference in salary would be a lot smaller on Sutter's next contract.

Brandon Sutter has one more point than Patrick Dwyer this season, BTW. Those better linemates and increased PP time that was supposed to see Sutter BUST OUT have him on pace for 34 points over a full schedule, even with a high shooting percentage. Odd that none of the Sutter Fan Club have mentioned any of this in his thread, instead relying on hilarious GA numbers.

 

[normalpsychology]

Brandon Sutter has one more point than Patrick Dwyer this season, BTW. Those better linemates and increased PP time that was supposed to see Sutter BUST OUT have him on pace for 34 points over a full schedule, even with a high shooting percentage. Odd that none of the Sutter Fan Club have mentioned any of this in his thread, instead relying on hilarious GA numbers.

it's pretty clear pittsburgh isn't handling or developing sutter correctly. He had almost just as many points (40, 29, 32) in his last three years before he was traded. and that was on a checking line playing with bowman and other AHL tweeners. Put him with Skinner and let's watch and see how much better he would do than Jordan

 

[Anton Babchuk]

it's pretty clear pittsburgh isn't handling or developing sutter correctly.

Yeah, I'm sure. That's the third coach (fourth if you count Lavi, but Sutter was 19 at the time so that can be disregarded) who has been mishandling him. Clearly there's some top offensive ability that they can't see that only the Brandon Sutter Fan Club notices.

He had almost just as many points (40, 29, 32) in his last three years before he was traded. and that was on a checking line playing with bowman and other AHL tweeners

Nonsense. I'm tired of people denigrating Sutter's linemates to paint him as being capable of someone of great offensive ability that is dragged down by others.

Here are Sutter's top linemates over those three seasons

1. Dwyer
2. Nodl
3. Tlusty
4. LaRose
5. Ponikarovsky

1. Dwyer
2. Tlusty
3. Jokinen
4. LaRose
5. Bowman

1. LaRose
2. Whitney
3. Ruutu
4. Jokinen
5. Kostopoulos

AHL tweeners, right? He actually didn't play that much with Bowman at all, but people like to mention Bowman and Nodl because they are the most AHLish of Sutter's "bad linemates".

Based on production this year, one could make (an equally bad) argument than Sutter was dragging down Tlusty and Dwyer.

Odd that this whole debate comes during a losing streak where we've scored 6 goals total, as if they great Brandon Sutter would have any effect on that. I'm sure you could find many 5, 10, 15 game streaks of utterly terrible offensive play from Sutter, but nobody gave a **** because skated fast and the usual scapegoats were being blamed.

I think the ability to skate really fast into the zone and make some horrible play colors the perceptions of many to the point of absurd. Dalpe played like absolute garbage and people were apoplectic when he got sent down. People think that those plays not ending up in the net are just bad luck, but really it's just low percentage hockey that looks nice. A player's ability to gain open ice with his speed means nothing if he can't do anything with the puck. Brandon Sutter can't do anything with the puck and never will because he has tunnel vision. His high end potential is Matthew Lombardi. Being a Hurricanes draft pick and a nice guy doesn't change anything.

 

[Anton Babchuk]

Penalty kill goals against per 60 (4-on-5) over the last two seasons

Sutter: 7.27, 8.39
J. Staal: 4.06, 6.28

If GA means so much, then we can conclusively determine that Staal is a significantly better PKer than Sutter, right?