Jordan Staal

[Finlandia WOAT]

By almost any statistical comparison (including salary) Sutter is superior to Staal. Staal played very sheltered minutes offensively in Pitt, and did not play against hardly any top 4 d-men.

What statistical analysis are you referring to?

Sutter: 8g, 5a, 13 points in 31 games.
Staal: 7g, 12a, 19 points in 29 games.

Relative Corsi: Staal (5.83) > Sutter (-11.97).

They both receive the hardest competition for each team, and both the most defensive zone starts of any center on either team.

The only thing that Sutter has over Staal is his shot (barely) and his speed (by a country mile). In playmaking, one vs. one, gaining the zone, forechecking, physical play, and defense, Staal has Sutter beat.

 

[tarheelhockey]

By some of the posts here, you'd never know Staal is outscoring Sutter by almost 50% this year.

 

[nobuddy]

What statistical analysis are you referring to?

Sutter: 8g, 5a, 13 points in 31 games.
Staal: 7g, 12a, 19 points in 29 games.

Relative Corsi: Staal (5.83) > Sutter (-11.97).

They both receive the hardest competition for each team, and both the most defensive zone starts of any center on either team.

The only thing that Sutter has over Staal is his shot (barely) and his speed (by a country mile). In playmaking, one vs. one, gaining the zone, forechecking, physical play, and defense, Staal has Sutter beat.

You realize that Corsi Relative is relative to the team... right?

Somehow I don't feel as though using a number that Sutter has low because he's being compared to the two best ****ing players in the world, while Staal is being compared to his brother and then a bunch of **** is fair.

And saying that Staal is better than Sutter defensively is just laughable. Look at the GA on/off numbers I referred to earlier. The Penguins gave up more goals while Staal was on the ice than they did when Malkin/Crosby/Vitale was on the ice last year. That should tell you something.

 

[Roboturner913]

Staal can be a great defensive center, but he lacks the playmaking ability and offensive skillset to be a legit #2C

No, he doesn't. Rod Brind'Amour at age 36-39 had limited offensive skills and he was the best #2 center in the league in that span. Jordan Staal is not a high-end talent but he's got more than enough ability to be an ideal #2 on most any team. Particularly on a puck possesson team like this one.

I am not thrilled with certain other aspects of his game right now, but his talent is not an issue.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

You realize that Corsi Relative is relative to the team... right?

Somehow I don't feel as though using a number that Sutter has low because he's being compared to the two best ****ing players in the world, while Staal is being compared to his brother and then a bunch of **** is fair.

Brandon Sutter is dead last on the Pittsburgh Penguins in terms of Relative Corsi. So Crosby and Malkin blasting the curve here isn't the issue.

And saying that Staal is better than Sutter defensively is just laughable. Look at the GA on/off numbers I referred to earlier. The Penguins gave up more goals while Staal was on the ice than they did when Malkin/Crosby/Vitale was on the ice last year. That should tell you something.

They did?

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...46+63+67+17+18+19+20+21+22+23+24+25+26+27+28#

GA/60 minutes
Malkin: 2.80
Staal: 2.83
Crosby: 2.96

Obviously, that +/- has everything to do with Jordan Staal's defensively ability, and nothing to do with the fact that he was being asked to perform a shutdown role in deference of... what was the way you put it...the two best ****ing players in the world? A role where his offensive chances were limited and his chances to get a minus greatly increased?

Staal didn't get scored on more than Crosby/Malkin/AHL Scrub, Crosby/Malkin/AHL Scrub simply outscored him by a ridiculous margin.

Against Sutter, who had a dreadful 1st half Staal and a mess of a 2nd line to wreck his curve.

But then there is the eye test. Personally, Sutter has a very good stick, and he is very fast. Even when caught deep, he can still get back to play defense. But he can't match Staal's physicality on the boards or dominating presence in front of the net.

But beyond this, and back to my original point, the poster said that by "any statistical comparison, Sutter is superior to Staal". I offered a statistical comparison where Staal comes out on top of Sutter, ergo, he is wrong.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Relative Corsi for Sutter - "It's not fair to compare him to Crosby and Malkin"

GA/60 for Staal - "It's totally fair to compare him to Crosby and Malkin"


Seems legit

 

[bleedgreen]

As much as I love sutter, I'm looking forward to his next huge contract where people get realistic about who he is and will likely be. When he's making four plus million a year for not particularly impressive production these arguments will grow smaller.

Dumo has taken a small step backwards this year, isn't considered a high end prospect. I never thought he'd be more than a bottom pairing guy to start. He's slow. He's no sure thing. Our prospect pool showed what it actually is this year, smoke and mirrors. Everyone we thought was good looks unlikely to ever make it. Is Dumo different? The pick is irrelevant because we wouldn't have taken the same guy, and there's no knowing who we would've taken.

We paid a lot. We did the same thing with Glen Wesley. Everyone thinks now we won that deal and wouldn't do a thing different. I still hurt thinking about it. We got an obvious improvement here at a position we needed clarity at. You build your team at center, we got a very good one. We still have holes on d, but those will be easier to fill than the number two center was. This debate gets nowhere and goes nowhere. Jstaal is a solid player, and generally pretty easy to root for. Trading sutter is hardly like trading Ron Francis. Jstaal has also been a beast in the playoffs. I'm ok with this trade, and I've torn apart jr for making moves exactly like it for 15 years. This one was the right one.

Ps these "stat" arguments are ridiculous. They prove nothing either way.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

@ Bleedgreen

Glen Wesley traded for a 1st round pick in 1995, a 1st round pick in 1996 and a 1st round pick in 1997.

1995: Kyle McLaren (Scrub)
1996: Jonathan Aitken (Bust)
1997: Samsonov (awesome)

Samsonov was traded for the 2nd round pick that got Lucic, and McLaren turned into Boyes, who turned into Wideman, who was packaged with a 1st and a 3rd for Nathan Horton and Gregory Campbell.

Many Boston fans are happy with the trade today, though I still think that we got the better of it.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Yeah, I'm not too worried about Sutter, because I believe he won't be staying in Pittsburgh long.

The same year that Sutter's an RFA, Malkin's a UFA, Letang's a UFA, Kunitz is a UFA, and Orpik's a UFA. The year after that, Fleury's a UFA and Martin's a UFA.

Sutter's going to (rightfully) want a raise. Malkin could easily ask for a raise, though he may be kind and stay with his current 8.7. Letang's going to ask for a raise. With the season Kunitz is having (and the fact that he's the elusive winger that they've been looking for for Crosby), he'll either get a raise or leave. Orpik, Fleury, Martin and Vokoun are all up in the air.

Pittsburgh's got to be really careful when they're picking and choosing the next couple years, especially if the cap is going to drop as expected. And paying a 3rd line center 3.5-4 mill may not be their smartest move.

 

[Roboturner913]

As much as I love sutter, I'm looking forward to his next huge contract where people get realistic about who he is and will likely be. When he's making four plus million a year for not particularly impressive production these arguments will grow smaller.

Dumo has taken a small step backwards this year, isn't considered a high end prospect. I never thought he'd be more than a bottom pairing guy to start. He's slow. He's no sure thing. Our prospect pool showed what it actually is this year, smoke and mirrors. Everyone we thought was good looks unlikely to ever make it. Is Dumo different? The pick is irrelevant because we wouldn't have taken the same guy, and there's no knowing who we would've taken.

We paid a lot. We did the same thing with Glen Wesley. Everyone thinks now we won that deal and wouldn't do a thing different. I still hurt thinking about it. We got an obvious improvement here at a position we needed clarity at. You build your team at center, we got a very good one. We still have holes on d, but those will be easier to fill than the number two center was. This debate gets nowhere and goes nowhere. Jstaal is a solid player, and generally pretty easy to root for. Trading sutter is hardly like trading Ron Francis. Jstaal has also been a beast in the playoffs. I'm ok with this trade, and I've torn apart jr for making moves exactly like it for 15 years. This one was the right one.

I like Jordan Staal a lot. Matter of fact, I like him more than every other forward on the current roster.

The problem I see with this deal is not the contract, or what we gave up to get him. It's that JR probably never considered the downside of what he was doing.

I once went for a job interview, at the same company my wife worked. Everything was great, then at the end the boss sat me down and said "Look, we think you're great, you're by far the most qualified candidate we've had, but your wife works here and we don't think it's a good idea."

I was pissed, but it made sense. If she got disgruntled with her job, I would share in it. If she was pissed off at her supervisor, I would be too.

Eventually, they ended up hiring me anyway, and less than a year later she found a job she couldn't pass up in a city four hours away. So they not only lost one good employee, they lost two.

I know they aren't a married couple, but Eric and Jordan have become a package deal at this point. You can't trade one without pissing the other one off, you can't strip Eric of his letter for being a crappy captain without pissing off another of your best players. It's a touchy situation and I'm betting by now JR is starting to see that there are some major disadvantages.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

I get what you're saying.

Now, if Jordan doesn't live up to his contract, we can't trade him for some reimbursement without pissing off Eric.

Jordan Staal is the hill JR will die on. Whether he wants to or not.

 

[bleedgreen]

@ Bleedgreen

Glen Wesley traded for a 1st round pick in 1995, a 1st round pick in 1996 and a 1st round pick in 1997.

1995: Kyle McLaren (Scrub)
1996: Jonathan Aitken (Bust)
1997: Samsonov (awesome)

Samsonov was traded for the 2nd round pick that got Lucic, and McLaren turned into Boyes, who turned into Wideman, who was packaged with a 1st and a 3rd for Nathan Horton and Gregory Campbell.

Many Boston fans are happy with the trade today, though I still think that we got the better of it.

Kyle McLaren was a scrub?!? You're tough to impress. Guy was a stud till the injuries caught him and the game sped up. That guy could knock you into the third row, with legit hip checks. When he and Sammy were in their early to mid 20's and Wesley was playing for a mostly losing team this was hardly a win for us. It was years before Wesley paid off, though we desperately needed him the whole time. You got to think about how long we sat watching that trade develop. How long has it been with the kessel trade? Feels like forever doesn't it? Try adding a few more years because those two were good for years on the b's.

That chain of those trades now actually makes it look worse to me. I love Wes, he's a classic whaler/cane but that was as painful a trade as I've ever been part of as a fan. Francis, pronger and that one. Toughest to swallow.

Point is, jr makes these types of trades. He's gonna keep doing them too. Of all of them he's done, and don't forget fedorov, this one made the most sense to me. Jstaal is legit, he's still developing yet has a ton of experience, and he's signed for essentially life. It could fail but its a proper swing at the plate.

Wesley never had a chance, he was alone and was never a big scorer. His job was just to help stabilize and that's a huge price to pay for just that. Jstaal is in a good spot on a growing team. He's set up to succeed.

 

[bleedgreen]

I like Jordan Staal a lot. Matter of fact, I like him more than every other forward on the current roster.

The problem I see with this deal is not the contract, or what we gave up to get him. It's that JR probably never considered the downside of what he was doing.

I once went for a job interview, at the same company my wife worked. Everything was great, then at the end the boss sat me down and said "Look, we think you're great, you're by far the most qualified candidate we've had, but your wife works here and we don't think it's a good idea."

I was pissed, but it made sense. If she got disgruntled with her job, I would share in it. If she was pissed off at her supervisor, I would be too.

Eventually, they ended up hiring me anyway, and less than a year later she found a job she couldn't pass up in a city four hours away. So they not only lost one good employee, they lost two.

I know they aren't a married couple, but Eric and Jordan have become a package deal at this point. You can't trade one without pissing the other one off, you can't strip Eric of his letter for being a crappy captain without pissing off another of your best players. It's a touchy situation and I'm betting by now JR is starting to see that there are some major disadvantages.

I highly disagree. I think jr is still doing little dances he pulled it off. I highly doubt he pins any of our woes on Jordan. He thinks he has the perfect family to build a team around, and he's probably right. It's tough to get good players I commit to nc. He drafted an amazing one, and is riding it as far as it goes. You hear forslund talking about jr and his thoughts on semin? Something about, "we put him around Francis, Brindy, and the Staals. We knew it would work out". The words of a man with regrets?

Just because we talk like the sky is falling every day doesn't mean a single soul associated with the team feels remotely the same way. Jr is looking for dmen. That's what he thinks the problem is.

Not to mention the Staals are adults and professionals. They know they can be traded and separated. They aren't a package deal, never were. Jordan took advantage of the moment and it worked out so he could play with his bro. We won't lose one if the other goes.

 

[Roboturner913]

Yeah, I was gonna say, I remember McLaren being a pretty good player. At his peak he was one of the better physical d-men in the game.

Wesley no doubt the best individual player to come out of that trade, so you would probably do it again, but man that is a high price.

 

[Roboturner913]

I highly disagree. I think jr is still doing little dances he pulled it off. I highly doubt he pins any of our woes on Jordan. He thinks he has the perfect family to build a team around, and he's probably right. It's tough to get good players I commit to nc. He drafted an amazing one, and is riding it as far as it goes. You hear forslund talking about jr and his thoughts on semin? Something about, "we put him around Francis, Brindy, and the Staals. We knew it would work out". The words of a man with regrets?

Just because we talk like the sky is falling every day doesn't mean a single soul associated with the team feels remotely the same way. Jr is looking for dmen. That's what he thinks the problem is.

Not to mention the Staals are adults and professionals. They know they can be traded and separated. They aren't a package deal, never were. Jordan took advantage of the moment and it worked out so he could play with his bro. We won't lose one if the other goes.

I am talking worst-case scenario of course. I've not completely soured on Eric, but has some serious growing up to do if he really is going to be the leader of this team. It seems to me Jordan is much better suited as captain material than he is.

I do kind of admire JR's steadfastness, you might even call it stubbornness in the way he makes moves. If this team fails to make the playoffs this year, I don't think it will be his fault. But at the same time he's kind of painted himself into a corner in terms of flexibility for the future and its going to be really frustrating if this team does nothing but tread water for the next 5 years.

 

[nobuddy]

Brandon Sutter is dead last on the Pittsburgh Penguins in terms of Relative Corsi. So Crosby and Malkin blasting the curve here isn't the issue.



They did?

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...46+63+67+17+18+19+20+21+22+23+24+25+26+27+28#

GA/60 minutes
Malkin: 2.80
Staal: 2.83
Crosby: 2.96

Obviously, that +/- has everything to do with Jordan Staal's defensively ability, and nothing to do with the fact that he was being asked to perform a shutdown role in deference of... what was the way you put it...the two best ****ing players in the world? A role where his offensive chances were limited and his chances to get a minus greatly increased?

Staal didn't get scored on more than Crosby/Malkin/AHL Scrub, Crosby/Malkin/AHL Scrub simply outscored him by a ridiculous margin.

Against Sutter, who had a dreadful 1st half Staal and a mess of a 2nd line to wreck his curve.

But then there is the eye test. Personally, Sutter has a very good stick, and he is very fast. Even when caught deep, he can still get back to play defense. But he can't match Staal's physicality on the boards or dominating presence in front of the net.

But beyond this, and back to my original point, the poster said that by "any statistical comparison, Sutter is superior to Staal". I offered a statistical comparison where Staal comes out on top of Sutter, ergo, he is wrong.

Crosby played like 22 games last year. I included him in my statement because he was one of the centers who, when combined with the rest of the Pens' centers outside Staal, gave up fewer goals per 60 when Staal was off the ice than on it.

Yes, I realize that's somewhat to be expected because he's playing a shutdown role in deference of the Malkin line, but that's exactly my point.

Sutter went out against Stamkos, St. Louis, Ovechkin, Backstrom, Tavares, Malkin, Spezza, Kessel, etc. every night and we STILL gave up fewer goals with him on the ice. If Staal is a better defensive player than Sutter, why didn't he have the same affect on Pittsburgh?

 

[nobuddy]

Relative Corsi for Sutter - "It's not fair to compare him to Crosby and Malkin"

GA/60 for Staal - "It's totally fair to compare him to Crosby and Malkin"


Seems legit

Big difference. Crosby and Malkin are the best puck possession players in the world, of course their Corsi numbers are going to be absurd, along with any winger who plays with them (Neal, Kunitz, Dupuis, Bennett).

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

cher·ry–pick verb \ˈcher-ē-ˌpik\

Definition of CHERRY-PICK

intransitive verb
: to select the best or most desirable

transitive verb
: to select as being the best or most desirable; also : to select the best or most desirable

 

[tarheelhockey]

Big difference. Crosby and Malkin are the best puck possession players in the world, of course their Corsi numbers are going to be absurd, along with any winger who plays with them (Neal, Kunitz, Dupuis, Bennett).

And that's exactly why you'd also expect their GA/60 numbers to be the best on the team.

Hey look, Jeff Skinner has a better GA/60 than Jordan Staal this year. Probably coincides with his team-leading relative Corsi. Clearly, he is the most solid two-way player on the team.

And Jamie McBain and Kevin Westgarth have the best GA/60 at their positions. We should definitely jump to a conclusion based on that number, because it accurately reflects defensive ability, amirite?

 

[normalpsychology]

That's fine. If you want to say we gave up too much by including Dumoulin, then I won't argue with that..as I actually agree with it. But that's not the point you were making previously.

The Canes haven't had a legit 2C since Brindy faded. Now that they actually have one, we are lamenting the loss of a 3C. In a perfect world, I would have loved to keep both J. Staal and B. Sutter.

what's sad is that we could have easily kept both of them. There is no doubt Staal would have signed here next year. But JR rushed in like a fool

Sutter was my favorite Cane and I hated that they had to give him up. I'd still take Jordan over him without hesitation. The team sucks right now, Jordan has had a hodgepodge of linemates and yet to develop chemistry with them, and is still on pace for ~55 points over an 82 game schedule. My expectation for Jordan is that he could be a strong, capable 2C averaging 60 points a season.

Did you expect more? Do you see Sutter achieving that?

My answer is no to both those questions.

My answer is yes I expect more, especially for the paycheck Staal gets compared to Sutter. And yes I do see Sutter able to achive much more than that and on a cheaper budget too.


see the posts by aiastelmon and chicago made punk. agree with them. quality posts.

JR made a huge mistake making the hurricanes a staal dynasty. I really doubt they will be true contenders until after they are gone.. however long that may take to happen.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Carolina defensemen listed by Relative Corsi

Joe Corvo 8.7
Bobby Sanguinetti 8.0
Joni Pitkanen 6.5
Jamie McBain 4.7
Michal Jordan 4.0
Tim Gleason -1.1
Justin Faulk -6.2

Strong indicator of defensive ability.

 

[Joe McGrath]

Carolina defensemen listed by Relative Corsi

Joe Corvo 8.7
Bobby Sanguinetti 8.0
Joni Pitkanen 6.5
Jamie McBain 4.7
Michal Jordan 4.0
Tim Gleason -1.1
Justin Faulk -6.2

Strong indicator of defensive ability.

Next time someone uses relative Corsi in an argument about anything with me, I believe I will repost this and tell them what a worthwhile statistic it is.

 

[dogbazinho]

I think Rutherford is a weak negotiator. He pretty much admits as much by making what he calls "hockey trades" which is code word he uses for a deal where he overpays for a player that is bending another team over the barrel. He also prefers to negotiate contracts during the off-season which in the past has caused us to miss out on resigning our players or trading them if we felt they would not resign. Having no depth also leads us to players overvaluing themselves come negotiation time which is why people like Commodore want, and sometimes get from other teams, ridiculous contracts. It also forces us to resign a player like Ruutu when we would have been better off trading him when he requested a NTC with his new contract. He is just an all around nice guy and when a player like Whitney bends him over he probably is rather shocked.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

what's sad is that we could have easily kept both of them. There is no doubt Staal would have signed here next year. But JR rushed in like a fool

Again, I guess you missed the part where both Toronto and the Rangers were confirmed as also being in serious talks with Pittsburgh for Jordan. And there were rumors that Minnesota and Buffalo were also sending feelers out there.

And this is ignoring the fact that Pittsburgh still had the opportunity to resign Jordan. It was the length of their original offer that was the problem, not anything about him not wanting to play in Pittsburgh. Had they offered him a 2-3 deal, he likely would have taken it.

JR overpaid, yes, but out of necessity.

 

[turd]

And this is ignoring the fact that Pittsburgh still had the opportunity to resign Jordan. It was the length of their original offer that was the problem, not anything about him not wanting to play in Pittsburgh. Had they offered him a 2-3 deal, he likely would have taken it.

The Pens offered Staal the same exact deal he took in Carolina. Staal wasn't happy playing third fiddle in Pittsburgh, and wasn't going to re-sign. That became very clear, and Shero pulled the trigger. And I don't believe Shero would've taken a deal that didn't involve Sutter coming back the other way.