Jonathan Toews or Henrik Lundqvist?

[Filthy Dangles]

Both players are 20 years of age and you get to have one for a decade. Which player is more valuable?

Click to read more...

 

[DannyGallivan]

I have the advantage of hindsight. Three Stanley Cups and a Conn Smythe is all you need to know.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

I have the advantage of hindsight. Three Stanley Cups and a Conn Smythe is all you need to know.

Would Toews wons cups with the Rags? Would Henrik have won with those HAwks teams if yo replace Crow/Darling/Niemi with him?

When we speak of value, were obviously talking vacuum.

 

[Spirit of 67]

Toews.

You can win the Cup with Niemi. Not sure you can win it with the C version of Niemi. The Leafs may have tried.

 

[Machinehead]

Toews only because center > goalie.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

Toews, but mostly because of positional value.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Toews.

You can win the Cup with Niemi. Not sure you can win it with the C version of Niemi. The Leafs may have tried.

Matthews might be the Luongo version of centers.

 

[Spirit of 67]

Matthews might be the Luongo version of centers.

Okay

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Toews only because center > goalie.

Toews, but mostly because of positional value.

Well yeah that's a huge factor that has to be weighed. To use a baseball analogy, Derek Jeter's bat might not have been as valuable as David Ortiz's but you can bet your ass he was the more valuable player.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

As a Sens fan, Lundqvist.
He's Swedish and knows Alfie, so that boosts us.
He's not a headcase as have been so many of our goalies, always so cool.
He dresses very well, a plus in this near-hovel of a town.
He's extremely steady, should not be much variance in his play until he is well around retirement age.

 

[Ainec]

best goalie of the era or a top 10 c in his prime..

still gona have to go with the center

 

[Deficient Mode]

Center isn't a more valuable position than goalie. The best centers are just more consistently the best from year to year and in a short playoff series than the best goalies. Lundqvist was a major exception to that. Best performing goalie in both playoffs and regular season by a large margin overall over an entire decade.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Center isn't a more valuable position than goalie. The best centers are just more consistently the best from year to year and in a short playoff series than the best goalies. Lundqvist was a major exception to that. Best performing goalie in both playoffs and regular season by a large margin overall over an entire decade.

Yes it is. Let's look at some recent championship teams.

Who's harder to find. MAF/Matt Murray or Crosby/Malkin? Holtby or Backstrom/Kuznetsov? Tim Thomas or Patrice Bergeron? Crawford/Niemi or Toews? etc.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Yes it is. Let's look at some recent championship teams.

Who's harder to find. MAF/Matt Murray or Crosby/Malkin? Holtby or Backstrom/Kuznetsov? Tim Thomas or Patrice Bergeron? Crawford/Niemi or Toews? etc.

Please ignore the rest of my post where I explain why that happens.

 

[rent free]

Yes it is. Let's look at some recent championship teams.

Who's harder to find. MAF/Matt Murray or Crosby/Malkin? Holtby or Backstrom/Kuznetsov? Tim Thomas or Patrice Bergeron? Crawford/Niemi or Toews? etc.

goalie's can single-handedly win games and championships for a team. centers can't do that

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Please ignore the rest of my post where I explain why that happens.

"best centers are just more consistently the best from year to year....." > goalie performance doesn't vary that much > it's easy(er) to find a goalie capable of winning a cup > goalies are less valuable.

 

[Machinehead]

Well yeah that's a huge factor that has to be weighed. To use a baseball analogy, Derek Jeter's bat might not have been as valuable as David Ortiz's but you can bet your ass he was the more valuable player.

Actually, Jeter had a way higher offensive WAR, but I get what you're saying.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Actually, Jeter had a way higher offensive WAR, but I get what you're saying.

Because offensive War is accounting for and adjusting the fact that Jeter is a shortstop and Ortiz is a DH....it's not a position neutral stat

goalie's can single-handedly win games and championships for a team. centers can't do that

Why haven't Luongo or Hank or Price won? Goalies can score goals now?

 

[Machinehead]

Because offensive War is accounting for and adjusting the fact that Jeter is a shortstop and Ortiz is a DH....it's not a position neutral stat

Sure, but when you say Ortiz's bat was more valuable, technically it wasn't.

It was certainly more powerful.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Sure, but when you say Ortiz's bat was more valuable, technically it wasn't.

It was certainly more powerful.

David Ortiz was a better hitter than Derek Jeter. That's all I meant, you're overthinking it but I could have said it better as well

 

[Hawkaholic]

Toews, easy. Because if you can foresee him playing badly at age 30, you can trade him at age 28 for Lundqvist++++++ because C's have much more value than goalies.

 

[Deficient Mode]

"best centers are just more consistently the best from year to year....." > goalie performance doesn't vary that much > it's easy(er) to find a goalie capable of winning a cup > goalies are less valuable.

Other goalies aren't consistent -> consistent Vezina candidate is even more valuable relatively

Why haven't Luongo or Hank or Price won? Goalies can score goals now?

The best goalie often wins the cup. It's just that the best goalie can vary far more in a 7 game series.

 

[Deficient Mode]

On the subject of WAR, Corsica has Lundqvist at 54.05 WAR from his 3rd year in the league to his 10th year in the league. Nearly double Toews, and far ahead of Ovechkin (35.32) and Crosby (35.1) from 2007-2015. Having a goalie who is that consistently great is underrated.

 

[Leonhard Euler]

Knowing their level of play through out their careers easily Lundqvist. Extremely rare case of a goalie staying elite for a very long time.

 

[Dont Toews Me Bro]

Toews and it's not even close. He's proven time and time again he can get the job done when needed most.