Player Discussion Jonathan Drouin - So comman Edition

[Riddum]

Being awful for another couple of seasons wouldn't be all that bad really. The Habs would potentially get some high impact young players from these very high draft picks. Plus if the Habs fail for another couple of seasons MB would finally get fired. Win win if you ask me.

I fully agree. It's the best way to rebuild, especially when you have a terrible GM.

Off the top of my head: Leafs, Pens, Caps, Blackhawks, Oilers, Jets are all teams that built through being awful (In recent history)

 

[Runner77]

Since it's IMPOSSIBLE that Jonathan Drouin can improve/develop as a player/center...

It's a wonder why we bother drafting players or hiring guys like Bouchard/Ducharme for development at all.

The only wonder is how we don't put players in a position to succeed, for whatever reason. One of them has to do with stubbornly playing them out of position. Another has to do with the GM making deployment and positional decisions in absolute terms, turning his head coach into a puppet.

 

[417]

It can go either way, if he has any pride he will come out of the gate with something to prove but if he decides that he is the number one center no matter how he might or might not perform then we are in trouble. In my opinion if Drouin is our number one center it will be another top 5 pick for us next year, tough to learn a new position at the NHL level

Agreed with this...like I said earllier, I hope Jonathan Drouin took a hard look in the mirror at the end of the year and has a good summer and shows up with a better attitude in October.

But the GM also a job to do by getting him some help down the middle...because help isn't going to come in the name of Philip Danault or Tomas Plekanec.

it would be no different than trying to convert Gallagher to D as a partner for Weber, playing number one center in the best league in the world is very tough and should never be something to just experiment with, too many things can go wrong.

I don't think it's that drastic...But I agree and understand the jest of your point here.

 

[417]

The only wonder is how we don't put players in a position to succeed, for whatever reason. One of them has to do with stubbornly playing them out of position. Another has to do with the GM making deployment and positional decisions in absolute terms, turning his head coach into a puppet.

Agreed....but as it relates to Jonathan Drouin moving to center last training camp.

I don't have a problem with it, I even encouraged it.

But MB should of acquired a more experienced center to help with the transition.

IMO, he probably thought with Plekanec/Danault playing behind Drouin, he'd have enough support to ease his transition...that was a huge mistake, but this organization has always seen Plekanec bigger than he is.

If Bergevin is committed to Drouin at center (and Julien),...fine.

Go out and acquire another center to help him out so that the pressure to produce offensively while also learning the finer aspects of playing down low as a center in the NHL, isn't as daunting as it seemingly was this year.

This way, the coaching staff will be better prepared to deal with Drouin and perhaps his mood swings...if he sulks again or plays lazy, then you've got another option and you can limit Drouin's TOI while not handicapping the rest of the team by throwing Plekanec over the boards for 17 mins a game.

Drouin's struggles this year as a center, is an indictment on Marc Bergevin's lazy GM'ing more than Drouin's inability to learn the position.

 

[Runner77]

Agreed....but as it relates to Jonathan Drouin moving to center last training camp.

I don't have a problem with it, I even encouraged it.

But MB should of acquired a more experienced center to help with the transition.

IMO, he probably thought with Plekanec/Danault playing behind Drouin, he'd have enough support to ease his transition...that was a huge mistake, but this organization has always seen Plekanec bigger than he is.

If Bergevin is committed to Drouin at center (and Julien),...fine.

Go out and acquire another center to help him out so that the pressure to produce offensively while also learning the finer aspects of playing down low as a center in the NHL, isn't as daunting as it seemingly was this year.

Drouin's struggles this year as a center, is an indictment on Marc Bergevin's lazy GM'ing more than Drouin's inability to learn the position.

MB said it himself, Drouin at center was not an ideal choice, he was what they had. You don't come back from making that statement and then project to use the player again in the same manner toward next season. It's incoherent and is tantamount to how he affirmed that the D would be better last year. There's a net loss of credibility, the GM can't even follow his own assessments.

 

[417]

MB said it himself, Drouin at center was not an ideal choice, he was what they had. You don't come back from making that statement and then project to use the player again in the same manner toward next season. It's incoherent and is tantamount to how he affirmed that the D would be better last year. There's a net loss of credibility, the GM can't even follow his own assessments.

Well as of today, he's still what they have (please don't remind that that Galchenyuk should be playing center lol)...

And he probably knows that for that to change (Drouin going back to wing) he's going to need to acquire 2 top 6C's...

And he probably knows that acquiring 1 top 6C is going to be difficult, nevermind getting 2.

So in the meantime...you've got to work with what you got.

But again, I did see *some* strides in Drouin's game the last quarter of the season, it's not out of the realm of possibility that this progression continues into next year.

 

[sheed36]

You been reading this thread and the comments after Bergevin said that Drouin would be at center again?


I don't agree with it, but it's not necessarily wrong...no.

I just don't quite understand why you think he can't be a good player at either position. Do you really think the difference between him reaching his potential is simply about whether he plays wing or center?

I assure you, there are MANY players who have either played in the NHL or currently play in the NHL who are more than capable of playing both positions. In those cities, their versatility is celebrated, applauded...

In Montreal, it's an either or...Drouin HAS to play wing, or he's going to self-destruct (i'm exaggerating).


Well if you don't want them to repeat with Drouin what they did with Galchenyuk...then you should be happy that they're going to continue to work with him as a center, since they committed to it last year.

Moving him back to the wing, after all the work they put in last year, would be doing EXACTLY what you're criticizing them of having done with Galchenyuk.

And Galchenyuk is an interesting case...after years of jerking him around between wing/center...they left him at wing this year and IMO, he improved as an overall player this year more, than the 40 odd games he played at center that everyone keeps celebrating.

I get what you're saying and if the Habs are 100% committed to keeping Drouin at center I agree it's for the best to keep playing him there and hope he turns into that center the Habs desperately need.

Problem is even Bergevin said in an ideal world Drouin wouldn't be a center so even he doesn't sound like he's convinced he can become one right now so how long will they even keep playing him at center if he still struggles there?

Lots of questions and not many answers at this point.

 

[417]

I get what you're saying and if the Habs are 100% committed to keeping Drouin at center I agree it's for the best to keep playing him there and hope he turns into that center the Habs desperately need.

Problem is even Bergevin said in an ideal world Drouin wouldn't be a center so even he doesn't sound like he's convinced he can become one right now so how long will they even keep playing him at center if he still struggles there?

Lots of questions and not many answers at this point.

That's just Bergevin's own mouth getting him into trouble again...even if that's what he thought/thinks deep down, there was no point saying that because today, he just looks even dumber (if that's possible).

But really, I don't care what comes out of his mouth...if an ideal world, Drouin wouldn't be a center on this team, OK, then go out and make the necessary moves to ensure that happens.

If that's not possible, then today's comments make more sense.

 

[Runner77]

Well as of today, he's still what they have (please don't remind that that Galchenyuk should be playing center lol)...

And he probably knows that for that to change (Drouin going back to wing) he's going to need to acquire 2 top 6C's...

And he probably knows that acquiring 1 top 6C is going to be difficult, nevermind getting 2.

So in the meantime...you've got to work with what you got.

But again, I did see *some* strides in Drouin's game the last quarter of the season, it's not out of the realm of possibility that this progression continues into next year.

I don't have a problem with him working with what he's got. I'd rather he doesn't answer the question or asks to deal with it at the end of the summer. Answering now by committing to the player who was woeful at the position, only invites further skepticism and ridicule.

We all know that the work is not done, that it'll be difficult to acquire two top 6Cs, but he may end up with a no. 1 C by the end of the summer (even if it may end up being a no. 2C but who will be used as a no. 1C on a team that is short of top Cs). Plus, what's wrong with the GM only answering GM-type questions? Can't he just say that player deployment and the positions they will play, is a head coaching decision? Or do I have this wrong?

 

[417]

I don't have a problem with him working with what he's got. I'd rather he doesn't answer the question or asks to deal with it at the end of the summer. Answering now by committing to the player who was woeful at the position, only invites further skepticism and ridicule.

We all know that the work is not done, that it'll be difficult to acquire two top 6Cs, but he may end up with a no. 1 C by the end of the summer (even if it may end up being a no. 2C but who will be used as a no. 1C on a team that is short of top Cs). Plus, what's wrong with the GM only answering GM-type questions? Can't he just say that player deployment and the positions they will play, is a head coaching decision? Or do I have this wrong?

Agreed 100%...

I think it's a lock that he's going to end up with a no. 1C (whose more of a no. 2 but will be #1 on our team)...in which case, Drouin is still going to figure as a center in the top 6.

But this all goes back to what I said earlier, his comments in January about "in an ideal world" were just dumb and unnecessary.

 

[CauZuki]

How confusing for the player when management one day says he isn't suited for C. The next he will play C, even though in an ideal world he'd be a winger...Remind me how this is supposed to help?

 

[Tighthead]

MB said it himself, Drouin at center was not an ideal choice, he was what they had. You don't come back from making that statement and then project to use the player again in the same manner toward next season. It's incoherent and is tantamount to how he affirmed that the D would be better last year. There's a net loss of credibility, the GM can't even follow his own assessments.

In the words of a former Canadian PM, in a debate “That is an avowal of failure. That is a confession of non-leadership. And this (team) needs leadership. You had an option, sir. You could have done better.”

Excuses don’t feed empty stomachs.

 

[Adam Michaels]

Personally, I liked how Drouin finished the year. I think he was a lot more engaged, produced a lot more consistently, and looked a lot more comfortable at center. If he can carry that over to next year, I won't be upset if he's still a center. If he is a center, however, I'd much rather he be a 2C and not a 1C. Like @417 said earlier, if he's more sheltered, while still being a Top-6 player, then it may be beneficial.

I personally would rather have Galchenyuk in the middle than Drouin. But I don't lose sleep over Galchenyuk being a winger and Drouin a center. I recall when they were put on the same line, they looked great together. And I had also noticed that during their shifts together, Drouin would actually end up playing closer to the boards as a winger and Galchenyuk would end up in the middle of the ice. And whether one is labeled a center or winger, in the flow of the game, they'd naturally revert to those positions.

Either way, I want them both to be part of the Habs going forward as both ended the year on the right note. Should they be able to start the year like they finished it and keep it consistent all season long, whether one is center and the other winger won't matter much to me as I am of the opinion they can both be part of the solution going forward.

 

[sheed36]

Personally, I liked how Drouin finished the year. I think he was a lot more engaged, produced a lot more consistently, and looked a lot more comfortable at center. If he can carry that over to next year, I won't be upset if he's still a center. If he is a center, however, I'd much rather he be a 2C and not a 1C. Like @417 said earlier, if he's more sheltered, while still being a Top-6 player, then it may be beneficial.

I personally would rather have Galchenyuk in the middle than Drouin. But I don't lose sleep over Galchenyuk being a winger and Drouin a center. I recall when they were put on the same line, they looked great together. And I had also noticed that during their shifts together, Drouin would actually end up playing closer to the boards as a winger and Galchenyuk would end up in the middle of the ice. And whether one is labeled a center or winger, in the flow of the game, they'd naturally revert to those positions.

Either way, I want them both to be part of the Habs going forward as both ended the year on the right note. Should they be able to start the year like they finished it and keep it consistent all season long, whether one is center and the other winger won't matter much to me as I am of the opinion they can both be part of the solution going forward.

I would as well but I don't see that happening at this point but who the hell knows anymore. I've been expecting Galchenyuk to get traded away in the past 2 off seasons and I'm expecting it to maybe happen again this off season. I'll probably even be right one of these off seasons.

 

[417]

Personally, I liked how Drouin finished the year. I think he was a lot more engaged, produced a lot more consistently, and looked a lot more comfortable at center. If he can carry that over to next year, I won't be upset if he's still a center. If he is a center, however, I'd much rather he be a 2C and not a 1C. Like @417 said earlier, if he's more sheltered, while still being a Top-6 player, then it may be beneficial.

I personally would rather have Galchenyuk in the middle than Drouin. But I don't lose sleep over Galchenyuk being a winger and Drouin a center. I recall when they were put on the same line, they looked great together. And I had also noticed that during their shifts together, Drouin would actually end up playing closer to the boards as a winger and Galchenyuk would end up in the middle of the ice. And whether one is labeled a center or winger, in the flow of the game, they'd naturally revert to those positions.

Either way, I want them both to be part of the Habs going forward as both ended the year on the right note. Should they be able to start the year like they finished it and keep it consistent all season long, whether one is center and the other winger won't matter much to me as I am of the opinion they can both be part of the solution going forward.

That's why I think this Drouin vs Galchenyuk @ center vs wing is completely overstated.

No matter which of them plays center, they both need to be sheltered and insulated properly.

And that's the GM's job...


You'd think Galchenyuk is Bergeron-like as a center compared to Drouin here if you read some comments.

 

[groovejuice]

On this team...there's not much difference between both.

He's not likely to top out as a first line winger, not unless this team develops/trades for/signs a #1C...because he's not going to be a #1 winger with Philip Danault as his center.

Meanwhile, this team as of today, doesn't even have a #2C....

I should have qualified my remarks with a "on a competently managed Habs team" to remove any chance of a misinterpretation.

Very little makes sense on the Bergevin Habs. Categorically refusing to play Galchenyuk at centre and forcing Drouin there instead is ridiculous, which is one of the nicer things I can say about MB's team building.

He is well deserving of the Disaster Artist sobriquet and adds to that legacy on an almost daily basis.

 

[BLONG7]

MB said it himself, Drouin at center was not an ideal choice, he was what they had. You don't come back from making that statement and then project to use the player again in the same manner toward next season. It's incoherent and is tantamount to how he affirmed that the D would be better last year. There's a net loss of credibility, the GM can't even follow his own assessments.

Absolutely agreed...................it boggles my mind, that MB still has a job.

 

[Fazkovsky]

I am more then confident that Drouin can be a convenient 2C

however, we still need a top tier number one center

TAVARES COME HOME

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

I am more then confident that Drouin can be a convenient 2C

however, we still need a top tier number one center

TAVARES COME HOME

Convenient 2C? The Montreal Canadiens franchise have go you under their thumb, exacly where they want you. Settling for mediocrity instead of thriving for greatness

 

[Kriss E]

Well that is an extreme comparison so not point using it...we're talking about forwards playing wing/center, something that happens all over the league without much discussion.


I don't think it's as clear cut as you're making it to be...I think both players have some good/bad things at both wing/center. I just want the coaching staff/management to just stick with them at a position, no matter if it's wing or center.


I think he's got a lot of attributes that are projectable at center...this past year was a difficult one but by the end of the year, I felt there was progress, enough that i'd like for it to be explored further, if only because I don't think there are many better solutions out there.


I don't know why we're asking this question anymore, he played 82 games as a winger. He's not going to play center moving forward, it's time to accept that.

As far as them getting another center, I think they are...which will be a huge help to Drouin IMO.


I'm not convinced he was or is anymore or any less a natural center than Jonathan Drouin is...I just wish they had been as stubborn about seeing it through, as they were this year with Drouin.

My point wasn't to discuss whether you think Drouin is okay at center or not. I was simply pointing out that the posters who don't are consistent in their thinking. They want players to be put in their natural position. They believe for Galch, it was center, and they now believe it to be on the wing for Drouin.
So they are not hypocrites, they are actually being perfectly consistent.

If you think Drouin is fine at center, that's okay. Personally I don't see it but we will see this year I guess.

 

[sandviper]

20 points in 31 games, -4. Soooooo productive. We've literally never had a guy be as productive at center for a 30 game period ever before. Especially not recently, and especially not one that we have on the roster. There's literally no other options.

To be fair, +/- is a terrible stat.

To be fair, -4 is probably flattering considering his efforts defensively

Putting this here since I didn't want to clutter the draft thread.

I've always harped on +/- as a bad stat if used solely as a gauge to grade a player. Starting point, yes, but not enough. So, keeping with the 30-game window our good friend Grant brought up:

1. As NP brought up, 20 points for Drew. Of those 20, only 10 were at even strength. I was actually surprised it was that many. Still, during that period, he only had 3 EV goals. I get Drouin isn't strong at even strength, but 3 goals in 30 games during a period where he did actually play better says a lot about his season as a whole.

2. Again, +/- isn't a great stat to judge a player, but if we're going there, in the last 30 games, he was a positive and negative in 9 games. He was worse than -1 three times, better than +1 twice. Looking at the outliers, he was at worse, -3 twice, +3 once.

3. I tried to find advanced stats for the last 30 games, but was only able to find for the season. 5-on-5, his CF% was ~51%, so not great, but not terrible either. Better than I would have expected actually. That said, he does get ~58% oZ starts. Now, some call this sheltering but to me, you do want to put your offensive players in the best position to succeed so I am ok with an almost 60% oZ stat. However, his CF% is much lower than it should be.

All this being said, he DID play better later in the season when paired with Byron and Gallagher. What this means for 2018-2019 we'll have to see, but to counter Grant's pompous claim about not questioning the placement of Drouin based on the last third of the season; Drew was better but considering his performance for the first 2/3 of the season, he could only go up.

 

[417]

My point wasn't to discuss whether you think Drouin is okay at center or not. I was simply pointing out that the posters who don't are consistent in their thinking. They want players to be put in their natural position. They believe for Galch, it was center, and they now believe it to be on the wing for Drouin.
So they are not hypocrites, they are actually being perfectly consistent.

If you think Drouin is fine at center, that's okay. Personally I don't see it but we will see this year I guess.

I don't think Alex Galchenyuk is any more of a natural center than Jonathan is a center....they've both shown an aptitude to play both positions to varying degrees of success. But reading this thread, you'd think Galchenyuk was Patrice Bergeron down the middle.

For the time being, and it doesn't appear as though this is going to change no matter how much we beat each other over the head, Galchenyuk is a winger and Drouin a center.

I don't think Drouin had a very good year as a center, but I did think he made some progress (aka development) towards the last quarter of the year (which probably was mostly result of his TOI spiking up) and that given they invested an entire season in converting him to center, it would make no sense to now move him back to center and put Galchenyuk back in the middle. THAT's, what would be hypocritical.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Agreed 100%...

I think it's a lock that he's going to end up with a no. 1C (whose more of a no. 2 but will be #1 on our team)...in which case, Drouin is still going to figure as a center in the top 6.

But this all goes back to what I said earlier, his comments in January about "in an ideal world" were just dumb and unnecessary.

how to describe Bergevin, right there.

 

[417]

Convenient 2C? The Montreal Canadiens franchise have go you under their thumb, exacly where they want you. Settling for mediocrity instead of thriving for greatness

So the Montreal Canadiens have anyone who thinks Jonathan Drouin can be a #2C, under their thumbs?

Lord..

 

[Habs Icing]

In a perfect world, Canadiens general manager Marc Bergevin says, Jonathan Drouin would be playing on the wing. ...

“Probably a better option would be on the wing but, in the situation we’re in, it’s not possible,” said Bergevin. “In a perfect world, if we had that No. 1 centre, that guy who can make plays, a high-end centre, (Drouin would) probably be on the wing.”

“I showed up at training camp and the first thing they did was put me at centre,” said Drouin.
“We talked about it and I’m still at centre. … There are some days when I definitely want to be at wing, ...

Canadiens' Jonathan Drouin experiencing growing pains at centre


This sounds like Bergevin's default position about the playoffs -- make the playoffs and anything can happen. Show up at training camp and any position can happen.

You know what else happens in a perfect world? Someone like MB if he's really really lucky will be selling used cars in Laval.

What a load of cow manure that man can spew out. Only after the trade did he realize that ideally Drouin should be playing wing? This idiot damns himself with his own words. He's an asinine moron. Here's what's wrong with what he just said. Either he and his magnificent staff didn't do their homework before the trade or they did do their homework and traded for him anyway because they thought they were such great talent developers i.e. Galchenyuk. And it wasn't scrap they gave in that trade. It was a stud PMD left handed blue chipper - something we no longer have in our organization.

I better stop here because I'm liable to start swearing. ****ing moron.