Jonathan Bernier - And right back into the starting role

[eddieO]

I believe this is why management decided to invest in Bernier, he projects as a better goalie than Reimer.

They "invested" by taking him to arbitration, something they rarely do. They "invested" by giving him a two year deal, instead of the term he wanted.

The fact is they didn't invest, and Bernier doesn't and hasn't ever "projected" as a better goalie except to the Bernier contingent on this thread.

Reimer has proven he's better so far this season. Bernier has projected as a player who needed an AHL stint to play at the NHL level.

 

[eddieO]

Seems like the Bernier love is so great that a couple of good starts and all is forgotten. Hopefully management will see that in the long run he's not a solution. We need someone with way more consistency, and mental fortitude.

Should be an interesting 2nd half of the season with Reimer set to return. Bernier merely has to play average with another year on his contract and management will most definitely take the safe route of trading Reimer. However, if Reimer regains control of the crease (Babcock is probably skeptical of Bernier), how will Bernier respond, how will management deal with this scenario at the trade deadline?

The Bernier bandwagon will be here until another Isles game happens, then they'll go white noise again. I'm glad Bernier is playing better, his fervent supporters are a funny and fickle bunch.

This management group is far better than the last one who brought in Bernier. They are better evaluators of talent. That's probably why they didn't invest in Bernier long term.

 

[marquee]

Seems like the Bernier love is so great that a couple of good starts and all is forgotten. Hopefully management will see that in the long run he's not a solution. We need someone with way more consistency, and mental fortitude.

Should be an interesting 2nd half of the season with Reimer set to return. Bernier merely has to play average with another year on his contract and management will most definitely take the safe route of trading Reimer. However, if Reimer regains control of the crease (Babcock is probably skeptical of Bernier), how will Bernier respond, how will management deal with this scenario at the trade deadline?

Thats a ton if wishful thinking. Just let the season play out.

And contrarily 17 games doesnt rewrite 3 seasons of inconsistencies from reimer.

 

[marquee]

They "invested" by taking him to arbitration, something they rarely do. They "invested" by giving him a two year deal, instead of the term he wanted.

The fact is they didn't invest, and Bernier doesn't and hasn't ever "projected" as a better goalie except to the Bernier contingent on this thread.

Reimer has proven he's better so far this season. Bernier has projected as a player who needed an AHL stint to play at the NHL level.

Lol deepz wont quit until reimer sees glory! This guy is sick.

 

[eddieO]

Lol deepz wont quit until reimer sees glory! This guy is sick.

I've said I would trade Reimer at the deadline if we got something good back.

 

[Nithoniniel]

They "invested" by taking him to arbitration, something they rarely do. They "invested" by giving him a two year deal, instead of the term he wanted.

The fact is they didn't invest, and Bernier doesn't and hasn't ever "projected" as a better goalie except to the Bernier contingent on this thread.

Reimer has proven he's better so far this season. Bernier has projected as a player who needed an AHL stint to play at the NHL level.

Seriously? You'll never give this up, huh?

Bernier was once one of the most highly touted young goaltender prospects in the game. Reimer was projecting something similar when he brust onto the scene, but there's quite obviously been times where Bernier looked like the better goaltender long-term.

 

[TMLegend]

Seriously? You'll never give this up, huh?

Bernier was once one of the most highly touted young goaltender prospects in the game. Reimer was projecting something similar when he brust onto the scene, but there's quite obviously been times where Bernier looked like the better goaltender long-term.

He has irrational hatred for everything Bernier. He's even said so himself that he can't frankly stand the guy.

 

[saltming]

They "invested" by taking him to arbitration, something they rarely do. They "invested" by giving him a two year deal, instead of the term he wanted.

The fact is they didn't invest, and Bernier doesn't and hasn't ever "projected" as a better goalie except to the Bernier contingent on this thread.

Reimer has proven he's better so far this season. Bernier has projected as a player who needed an AHL stint to play at the NHL level.

One was drafted 11th the other 99th. That fact alone says that one is projected to be better than the other to greater hockey minds than all the hF posters. Weather or not it pans out that way is a different story.
James reimer has out played Bernier so far this season. True, but Berniers last 2 games are opening the door for him to bounce back. And im not even going to go into the previous seasons as it has nothing to do with my post. Again time will tell. If he can sustain the level of play.
I'm a "put the guy in that wins sustainably" fan. Name on the fron of the jersey trump name on the back. Reimer has made vast improvements in his ability to track the puck this year. Imo that was the only weakness i had issue I had with him.
Bernier moves the puck better, he's not elite at it but far better than Reimer. He tracks the puck better, though as stated reimer is much better this year. His glove is better. His skill at stopping the play is better. His projection and pedigree all state this, I'm not making it up. That said, if he can't stop the puck get him out of the net. But we all know he can stop the puck.
If both goalies fulfill their potential and they stop the puck equally, I go with Bernier because his potential is higher. But things are never even. Projecting players is like playing cards, there is an amount of skill and equal amount of luck.
All this to say that's probably why management gave him 4+million X 2 years of rope to manifest his potential.

 

[Daisy Jane]

He has irrational hatred for everything Bernier. He's even said so himself that he can't frankly stand the guy.

but you can not "stand" someone and still give him credit. Which - is what deepz has done constantly. when bernier plays well, he is the first to give him credit. we all have that player.

like i know deepz can speak for himself, but i mean - honestly. i think he's been v. consistent on this.

He doesn't like Bernier (and he's been following him more than I think a lot of us - not speaking about you in general because I know you're really up to date with goalies and stuff, Newf). but i think it's just been very evident that both goalies are very see-saw-esque and we as an organization should look for a more consistent (or albeit) healthier option.

 

[eddieO]

Seriously? You'll never give this up, huh?

Bernier was once one of the most highly touted young goaltender prospects in the game. Reimer was projecting something similar when he brust onto the scene, but there's quite obviously been times where Bernier looked like the better goaltender long-term.

I absolutely agree with this. My issue was with "projected" as the better goalie. That is not a finite statement said with finality. There were times where Reimer was the better goalie, for example, this season and most recently. 2013 in Bernier's one good year, he was the better goalie.

Projected is a word people use to universalize their beliefs.

Al Montoya was drafted sixth overall. Was he projected as a great goalie? No. He was a good prospect that people believed could be good. Turns out he wasn't. Bernier was drafted 11th, that means very little now.

There's not a projection that Bernier is the better goalie. There's only a constant evolution of play, and continual assessments.

 

[eddieO]

but you can not "stand" someone and still give him credit. Which - is what deepz has done constantly. when bernier plays well, he is the first to give him credit. we all have that player.

like i know deepz can speak for himself, but i mean - honestly. i think he's been v. consistent on this.

He doesn't like Bernier (and he's been following him more than I think a lot of us - not speaking about you in general because I know you're really up to date with goalies and stuff, Newf). but i think it's just been very evident that both goalies are very see-saw-esque and we as an organization should look for a more consistent (or albeit) healthier option.

Thanks Daisy.

I believe neither Reimer or Bernier will be the longterm solution. I'm enjoying Reimer's play of late and I'm glad Bernier has played better.

I hope both build value to give us a good return.

I will not ever wish one to do poorly just out of spite or emotion. Apparently, that's not the case for everyone.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I absolutely agree with this. My issue was with "projected" as the better goalie. That is not a finite statement said with finality. There were times where Reimer was the better goalie, for example, this season and most recently. 2013 in Bernier's one good year, he was the better goalie.

Projected is a word people use to universalize their beliefs.

Al Montoya was drafted sixth overall. Was he projected as a great goalie? No. He was a good prospect that people believed could be good. Turns out he wasn't. Bernier was drafted 11th, that means very little now.

There's not a projection that Bernier is the better goalie. There's only a constant evolution of play, and continual assessments.

Thanks, Deepz. I'm perfectly fine, and more than fine, with this answer.

 

[teeder333*]

I really liked Sparks, hope he comes back healthy. Poor guy, he had the world, the absolute world of hockey at his fingertips. Cruel game this hockey.

 

[King Leaf]

One was drafted 11th the other 99th. That fact alone says that one is projected to be better than the other to greater hockey minds than all the hF posters. Weather or not it pans out that way is a different story.
James reimer has out played Bernier so far this season. True, but Berniers last 2 games are opening the door for him to bounce back. And im not even going to go into the previous seasons as it has nothing to do with my post. Again time will tell. If he can sustain the level of play.
I'm a "put the guy in that wins sustainably" fan. Name on the fron of the jersey trump name on the back. Reimer has made vast improvements in his ability to track the puck this year. Imo that was the only weakness i had issue I had with him.
Bernier moves the puck better, he's not elite at it but far better than Reimer. He tracks the puck better, though as stated reimer is much better this year. His glove is better. His skill at stopping the play is better. His projection and pedigree all state this, I'm not making it up. That said, if he can't stop the puck get him out of the net. But we all know he can stop the puck.
If both goalies fulfill their potential and they stop the puck equally, I go with Bernier because his potential is higher. But things are never even. Projecting players is like playing cards, there is an amount of skill and equal amount of luck.
All this to say that's probably why management gave him 4+million X 2 years of rope to manifest his potential.

Not going to get into the whole analysis of each goalie's game because it's been beaten to death in these threads. But draft position really doesn't matter at this stage in their careers, because for one thing, goaltenders draft position is also extremely results based and Bernier had a much better junior career on paper. You could argue Bernier is the more talented of the two goalies and therefore has more potential, but draft position is now an outdated measuring stick.

They "invested" by taking him to arbitration, something they rarely do. They "invested" by giving him a two year deal, instead of the term he wanted.

The fact is they didn't invest, and Bernier doesn't and hasn't ever "projected" as a better goalie except to the Bernier contingent on this thread.

Reimer has proven he's better so far this season. Bernier has projected as a player who needed an AHL stint to play at the NHL level.

Regardless of what they both project to be now, Bernier was projected to be an elite goalie by not just fans but scouts and analysts as well. Heck Pierre LeBrun actually said that Bernier could be as good as Carey Price only two or three years ago. AND despite what you always say about how the Kings gave up on Bernier, LeBrun (yeah, him again, probably covering his ass for what he said a couple years ago) spoke on Leafs Lunch a Little while ago and said what has always been reported; that the Kings front office was sick to their stomachs trading Bernier (I remember that distinctly) and he also said the goalie coach for the Kings believed that Bernier would have a comeback.

My point is, despite what my, your or anybody else's feelings towards Bernier are right now, he was as recently as two years ago, a highly touted, high potential goaltender. Taking that away from him is nothing more than rewriting history based on your current opinion. Which is frustrating, because there were many people that wrote off Price in the exact same way during his awful season, when anyone with a shred of sense knew the potential was still there. Talent doesn't just die, and that's true for Bernier as well. It's not a question of ability or potential, for him it's about execution and consistency.

but you can not "stand" someone and still give him credit. Which - is what deepz has done constantly. when bernier plays well, he is the first to give him credit. we all have that player.

like i know deepz can speak for himself, but i mean - honestly. i think he's been v. consistent on this.

He doesn't like Bernier (and he's been following him more than I think a lot of us - not speaking about you in general because I know you're really up to date with goalies and stuff, Newf). but i think it's just been very evident that both goalies are very see-saw-esque and we as an organization should look for a more consistent (or albeit) healthier option.

Well, you can and you can't. I mean, being able to admit you're wrong is big and all, but that doesn't mean your bias doesn't inform your opinions. Deepz would have to be pretty craycray to not give Bernier credit after a 40-save performance. But disliking the player means you can't have an open mind when analyzing his long term prospects as a Leaf. That's not a slight against Deepz by the way, that's just human nature. can you imagine if a juror had a past with a defendant? It would never fly in court for this exact reason. As a general rule, having an open mind is always the best option.

 

[saltming]

I absolutely agree with this. My issue was with "projected" as the better goalie. That is not a finite statement said with finality. There were times where Reimer was the better goalie, for example, this season and most recently. 2013 in Bernier's one good year, he was the better goalie.

Projected is a word people use to universalize their beliefs.

Al Montoya was drafted sixth overall. Was he projected as a great goalie? No. He was a good prospect that people believed could be good. Turns out he wasn't. Bernier was drafted 11th, that means very little now.

There's not a projection that Bernier is the better goalie. There's only a constant evolution of play, and continual assessments.

As a matter of fact Montoya was projected to be very good and is considered on of the biggest busts of recent history

Draft Busts From 2000-2010 Al Montoya

6th Overall by the*New York Rangers*in the 2004 NHL Draft

Montoya was drafted out of the University of Michigan where he went 30-10-3 with a .911 save percentage in his draft year. The highest goalie selected in the 2004 NHL Draft, he had some great expectations placed on him. He was known as a solid butterfly style goalie with great positioning and rebound control. He was always terrific at cutting down angles and could even play the puck with ease. That potential didn’t transition into the NHL however.

This could be Bernier too.
Perhaps the way I think of the work projects is different that your concept of the word?

 

[hoglund]

Thats subjective they didnt play a good defensive game.

That's not subjective, it's fact. The Leafs totally outshot and outplayed the Islanders, the only way you should allow 6 goals is if they had over 60 shots on net, they didn't even have 30 shots, case closed.

 

[eddieO]

Not going to get into the whole analysis of each goalie's game because it's been beaten to death in these threads. But draft position really doesn't matter at this stage in their careers, because for one thing, goaltenders draft position is also extremely results based and Bernier had a much better junior career on paper. You could argue Bernier is the more talented of the two goalies and therefore has more potential, but draft position is now an outdated measuring stick.



Regardless of what they both project to be now, Bernier was projected to be an elite goalie by not just fans but scouts and analysts as well. Heck Pierre LeBrun actually said that Bernier could be as good as Carey Price only two or three years ago. AND despite what you always say about how the Kings gave up on Bernier, LeBrun (yeah, him again, probably covering his ass for what he said a couple years ago) spoke on Leafs Lunch a Little while ago and said what has always been reported; that the Kings front office was sick to their stomachs trading Bernier (I remember that distinctly) and he also said the goalie coach for the Kings believed that Bernier would have a comeback.

My point is, despite what my, your or anybody else's feelings towards Bernier are right now, he was as recently as two years ago, a highly touted, high potential goaltender. Taking that away from him is nothing more than rewriting history based on your current opinion. Which is frustrating, because there were many people that wrote off Price in the exact same way during his awful season, when anyone with a shred of sense knew the potential was still there. Talent doesn't just die, and that's true for Bernier as well. It's not a question of ability or potential, for him it's about execution and consistency.



Well, you can and you can't. I mean, being able to admit you're wrong is big and all, but that doesn't mean your bias doesn't inform your opinions. Deepz would have to be pretty craycray to not give Bernier credit after a 40-save performance. But disliking the player means you can't have an open mind when analyzing his long term prospects as a Leaf. That's not a slight against Deepz by the way, that's just human nature. can you imagine if a juror had a past with a defendant? It would never fly in court for this exact reason. As a general rule, having an open mind is always the best option.

I appreciate your post, and understand what you're saying about Bernier being highly touted. That is a fact. I think my sticking point was with the word "projected", I believe it's much different than "a highly regarded prospect". Either way, it's semantics and not important.

About your point about bias, EVERYONE has bias. It's part of being human. The worst is when someone is showing a clear bias but says they aren't. That's simply not true. We all have bias, and it is almost always revealed in our comments.

In fact, I would argue the opposite: being open about your bias is the best option. For example, I wanted the Leafs to draft Hanifin. I was biased towards Hanifin over Marner. This is clear and in many of the draft day threads.

Today, I am a huge Marner fan. I ate a ton of crow. Being open about the fact that I was wrong is a good thing, it's human nature and especially in hockey, where things change all the time.

I dislike Bernier, but I want him to do well. If he does prove me wrong, that's all the better. I'm happy eating crow if the Leafs do well.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Yeah, deepz is right here. Everybody is biased, if you don't admit your own then you'll never be able to look past it.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Yeah, deepz is right here. Everybody is biased, if you don't admit your own then you'll never be able to look past it.

except me. I am of course, perfectly perfect in every way.

 

[saltming]

except me. I am of course, perfectly perfect in every way.

Such a bias thing to say!

 

[King Leaf]

I appreciate your post, and understand what you're saying about Bernier being highly touted. That is a fact. I think my sticking point was with the word "projected", I believe it's much different than "a highly regarded prospect". Either way, it's semantics and not important.

About your point about bias, EVERYONE has bias. It's part of being human. The worst is when someone is showing a clear bias but says they aren't. That's simply not true. We all have bias, and it is almost always revealed in our comments.

In fact, I would argue the opposite: being open about your bias is the best option. For example, I wanted the Leafs to draft Hanifin. I was biased towards Hanifin over Marner. This is clear and in many of the draft day threads.

Today, I am a huge Marner fan. I ate a ton of crow. Being open about the fact that I was wrong is a good thing, it's human nature and especially in hockey, where things change all the time.

I dislike Bernier, but I want him to do well. If he does prove me wrong, that's all the better. I'm happy eating crow if the Leafs do well.

Ah I see, yeah I guess I see what you're saying about the word projection, especially because the person you quoted was saying Bernier currently projects to be a better goalie than Reimer which I'm not sure anyone can say with any certainty.

As for the bias thing I do agree we all have biases of course, but I believe you said you didn't like Bernier right when we made the trade which is obviously before anyone got a good look at his play. And as we're both Kings fans I'm sure you saw the same little bit I did which was that he was a very talented goalie with some growing pains who tore it up in the A and Q. So I do believe that that dislike for Bernier makes you...not incapable but slightly unreliable judge of Bernier's long term future here.

Yeah, deepz is right here. Everybody is biased, if you don't admit your own then you'll never be able to look past it.

Agreed, but bias also has context, I don't think you should really like or dislike a hockey player because of anything other than their play on the ice, especially when you're trying to determine the players place in the teams plans. I think that's fair?

 

[King Leaf]

except me. I am of course, perfectly perfect in every way.

LOL I'll agree with you, but only because of your avatar.

 

[saltming]

Ah I see, yeah I guess I see what you're saying about the word projection, especially because the person you quoted was saying Bernier currently projects to be a better goalie than Reimer which I'm not sure anyone can say with any certainty.

As for the bias thing I do agree we all have biases of course, but I believe you said you didn't like Bernier right when we made the trade which is obviously before anyone got a good look at his play. And as we're both Kings fans I'm sure you saw the same little bit I did which was that he was a very talented goalie with some growing pains who tore it up in the A and Q. So I do believe that that dislike for Bernier makes you...not incapable but slightly unreliable judge of Bernier's long term future here.




Agreed, but bias also has context, I don't think you should really like or dislike a hockey player because of anything other than their play on the ice, especially when you're trying to determine the players place in the teams plans. I think that's fair?

I think you're trying to say to be objective versus subjective?
Subjective lets their bias influence their judgment and subjective doesn't.

 

[Mats13]

Seems like the Bernier love is so great that a couple of good starts and all is forgotten. Hopefully management will see that in the long run he's not a solution. We need someone with way more consistency, and mental fortitude.

Should be an interesting 2nd half of the season with Reimer set to return. Bernier merely has to play average with another year on his contract and management will most definitely take the safe route of trading Reimer. However, if Reimer regains control of the crease (Babcock is probably skeptical of Bernier), how will Bernier respond, how will management deal with this scenario at the trade deadline?

Do you not see the irony in what you're saying? Reimer had a good 17 games and the Reimer fan club promptly forgot 2 years of him sucking.

If you really think Reimer is consistent, reliable and the "safe route", then you should probably stop trying to accuse others of bias.

They "invested" by taking him to arbitration, something they rarely do. They "invested" by giving him a two year deal, instead of the term he wanted.

The fact is they didn't invest, and Bernier doesn't and hasn't ever "projected" as a better goalie except to the Bernier contingent on this thread.

Reimer has proven he's better so far this season. Bernier has projected as a player who needed an AHL stint to play at the NHL level.

Hasn't ever projected to be better? Really? Are you sure about that?

Are you absolutely sure that the 11th overall pick in 2006 has NEVER projected to be better than the 99th pick?

I also find it hilarious how you try to act like 17 games is more important than 2 years.

 

[MikeBabchuk]

They "invested" by taking him to arbitration, something they rarely do. They "invested" by giving him a two year deal, instead of the term he wanted.

The fact is they didn't invest, and Bernier doesn't and hasn't ever "projected" as a better goalie except to the Bernier contingent on this thread.

Reimer has proven he's better so far this season. Bernier has projected as a player who needed an AHL stint to play at the NHL level.

The only thing Bernier has on Reimer is his draft position.

We all see why he projected high as a young goalie; it's simple really: he demonstrated the ability to play spectacularly. Consistency and technical imperfections are common among kids so no one considered them red flags until he had a couple NHL seasons under his belt.

Now his flaws are still there and as an everyday guy in the NHL they become a big deal. We all see the spectacular and the positive aspects of Bernier's game and that's why he was highly touted. But the flaws, the lack of focus and consistency totally counterbalance all the good at this level.

I don't get why so many people still don't recognize this. Two good games--hell, five spectacular games in a row--don't magically erase fundamental trends in Bernier's game. This was evidenced in 2013-14 during a career season for him that was still plagued by many gaffes and disastrous games despite the many absolutely spectacular showings, albeit on a mess of a team. Having a relatively competent team in front of him now has evidenced the personal responsibility he must bear for these shortcomings rather than what previously occurred, which was to absolve Bernier of all blame due to the embarrassment of a team in front of our "superstar" netminder.

He has a lot of work ahead of him to try and eliminate the kinks in his game, but in reality, there are some aspects of human beings that are less changeable. That's why the game is played on ice with humans and not on paper with robots.