John Tonelli - # Not Retired = Disgrace

[MatthewBarnabysTears]

A banner with a picture of bow tie and a banner with a 4 digit number isn't cheesy?

I wish they'd change the banner back to his win total. That's what makes him a legend. The 1,500th game was a great memory, but it's missing the point.

 

[ScaredStreit]

A banner with a picture of bow tie and a banner with a 4 digit number isn't cheesy?

Agreed. Arbour should just have a plain banner that read "NY Islanders coach" and list the years he served as coach (sans that 1 game to get him to 1500). I don't think people would mind that. But the 1500 IS lame. Not bow tie lame, but lame nonetheless.

 

[bluechipbonzo]

Funny how in the last year of the building this pops up...kinda like the fair-weather fans when the team makes the playoffs.

Zing!

 

[PK Cronin]

The way I see it, there's a bunch of acceptable paths to immortality. Potvin/Bossy/Trottier/Smith are merely the gold standard; there's many other paths to greatness.

I think retired numbers are for the gold standard. Personally, I believe it to be the greatest honor (post career), even more so than getting into the HHoF. Pretty much all of the guys on any championshi/dynasty teams are instrumental to having their team win. It really lowers the honor of having your number retired when you start lowering the standard. It really doesn't matter if Gillies or Nystrom are retired, since that shouldn't be the basis for getting into that club (it is a slippery slope if you do that).

Is Tonelli regarded as one of the top players to ever play the game? If you talk to someone who wasn't/isn't an Islanders fan, do they know who Tonelli is? Most fans probably wouldn't know him or anything he did in his career (sans teams it may have happened against). People know Bossy, Potvin, Smith, and Trottier. They are above everyone else, and they are the only ones deserving of having their numbers retired. I'd hate to see us like the Habs with how many numbers they have retired, it's really ridiculous.

 

[BillD]

I think it is pretty easy.

Without Tonelli we don't win 4 Cups. Maybe we win the first Cup but of course he was instrumental in the GWG with Bobby Ny (so was Henning if you want to make that an argument) but that play was sooooo Tonelli-like, and proven over and over in the next 3 Cups. Can make the same argument about Gillies standing up to the Bruins intimidation and restoring order. He isn't there, we don't win that series.
As for the 1981-1982 Cup (3rd), no Tonelli and we do not get past the Pens in the first round. Five minutes left in regulation and down 2 goals to a hot goalie, Tonelli takes over and gets it to overtime, where he gets us through with the game winner.
And didn't JT score the winning goal to the incredible winning streak of 15 straight?
Not a NHL HOFer but certainly an Islander HOFer. As much as I loved Dog, Pup, Persson, Bam-Bam we could have won without them. Tonelli was a classic grinder with some skills who never let up. His energy and style of play should be textbook for NYI forwards.

 

[PK Cronin]

I think it is pretty easy.

Without Tonelli we don't win 4 Cups. Maybe we win the first Cup but of course he was instrumental in the GWG with Bobby Ny (so was Henning if you want to make that an argument) but that play was sooooo Tonelli-like, and proven over and over in the next 3 Cups. Can make the same argument about Gillies standing up to the Bruins intimidation and restoring order. He isn't there, we don't win that series.
As for the 1981-1982 Cup (3rd), no Tonelli and we do not get past the Pens in the first round. Five minutes left in regulation and down 2 goals to a hot goalie, Tonelli takes over and gets it to overtime, where he gets us through with the game winner.
And didn't JT score the winning goal to the incredible winning streak of 15 straight?
Not a NHL HOFer but certainly an Islander HOFer. As much as I loved Dog, Pup, Persson, Bam-Bam we could have won without them. Tonelli was a classic grinder with some skills who never let up. His energy and style of play should be textbook for NYI forwards.

If you're not an NHL HoF player, you shouldn't be considered for having your number retired as far as I'm concerned. He can be in the Islanders HoF, no problem, but having your number retired is something else entirely for me.

 

[MatthewBarnabysTears]

I think retired numbers are for the gold standard. Personally, I believe it to be the greatest honor (post career), even more so than getting into the HHoF. Pretty much all of the guys on any championshi/dynasty teams are instrumental to having their team win. It really lowers the honor of having your number retired when you start lowering the standard. It really doesn't matter if Gillies or Nystrom are retired, since that shouldn't be the basis for getting into that club (it is a slippery slope if you do that).

Is Tonelli regarded as one of the top players to ever play the game? If you talk to someone who wasn't/isn't an Islanders fan, do they know who Tonelli is? Most fans probably wouldn't know him or anything he did in his career (sans teams it may have happened against). People know Bossy, Potvin, Smith, and Trottier. They are above everyone else, and they are the only ones deserving of having their numbers retired. I'd hate to see us like the Habs with how many numbers they have retired, it's really ridiculous.

I think LaFontaine is in that category too — not because he's at the level of Bossy/Trottier/Potvin historically, but because being an American-born HOFer gives you a lot of extra press, or at least it did ~20 years ago.

 

[ScaredStreit]

I think LaFontaine is in that category too — not because he's at the level of Bossy/Trottier/Potvin historically, but because being an American-born HOFer gives you a lot of extra press, or at least it did ~20 years ago.

Lafontaine wans't on a Bossy/Trottier level for sure. But he was also on a higher level than Tonelli. I think Lafontaine makes the HOF even if he was Canadian.

Obviously the off-the-ice charities and personality helped his case for the HOF.

 

[Bexlyspeed]

If you're not an NHL HoF player, you shouldn't be considered for having your number retired as far as I'm concerned. He can be in the Islanders HoF, no problem, but having your number retired is something else entirely for me.

I completely disagree. Just look at Bob Nystrom. he will never make the hall of fame but he was so important to the Islanders that his number had to be retired.
he was an original Islander, a fan favortie and scored some important goals for us.

Tonelli is in the same boat, but i think what is against him is that he did not retire an Islander.

 

[tommyhendo15]

Support John Tonelli's #27 being retired and sign the petition here...
Not just sentimental because of the last year
He is truly deserving
NO CUPS WITHOUT HIM...NONE!

http://www.change.org/petitions/art...retired-before-the-islanders-move-to-brooklyn

I've also written a blog/article that was featured on Islanders Insight and has been getting passed around Twitter...
https://sites.google.com/site/theuntoldlegendofjohntonelli/

I CAN'T TELL YOU THE NUMBER OF LESSER PLAYERS WHO HAVE BEEN HONORED BY THEIR TEAMS AROUND THE NHL...STARTING WITH DALE HUNTER OF THE CAPS AND WHY ANY TRUE DYNASTY ERA ISLES FAN WOULD WANT TO VOICE THEIR OPPOSITION TO THIS IS AMAZING....A JOKE ACTUALLY....WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO LOSE IF TONELLI RECEIVES THE HIGHEST HONOR???...WE ALL HAVE TO SIT ON OUR HANDS AND WAIT FOR WAYNE GRETZKY BEFORE SHOWING DEEP APPRECIATION FOR GREAT PLAYERS?? READ THE BLOG OR GOOGLE IT "THE UNTOLD LEGEND OF JOHN TONELLI"

AND NO, IT DOESN'T OPEN THE GATE FOR GORING, WHO I LOVE, GORING DIDN'T EVEN SCORE 100 GOALS FOR THE ISLES

 

[tommyhendo15]

PS...Not retiring as an Islander doesn't mean a thing...ask Trottier and Gillies

 

[PK Cronin]

I completely disagree. Just look at Bob Nystrom. he will never make the hall of fame but he was so important to the Islanders that his number had to be retired.
he was an original Islander, a fan favortie and scored some important goals for us.

Tonelli is in the same boat, but i think what is against him is that he did not retire an Islander.

That's an argument against Nystrom having his number retired, not one for Tonelli as far as I'm concerned.

 

[tommyhendo15]

I think it is pretty easy.

Without Tonelli we don't win 4 Cups. Maybe we win the first Cup but of course he was instrumental in the GWG with Bobby Ny (so was Henning if you want to make that an argument) but that play was sooooo Tonelli-like, and proven over and over in the next 3 Cups. Can make the same argument about Gillies standing up to the Bruins intimidation and restoring order. He isn't there, we don't win that series.
As for the 1981-1982 Cup (3rd), no Tonelli and we do not get past the Pens in the first round. Five minutes left in regulation and down 2 goals to a hot goalie, Tonelli takes over and gets it to overtime, where he gets us through with the game winner.
And didn't JT score the winning goal to the incredible winning streak of 15 straight?
Not a NHL HOFer but certainly an Islander HOFer. As much as I loved Dog, Pup, Persson, Bam-Bam we could have won without them. Tonelli was a classic grinder with some skills who never let up. His energy and style of play should be textbook for NYI forwards.

Maybe we win the first cup without Tonelli? Did you see the last OT goal against the Flyers? That goal is as much Tonelli's as it is Nystrom's. Tonelli calls for the pass from Henning. He beats the Flyer's defender and makes a perfect pass to Nystrom. Too many fans don't remember that he assisted Potvin in Game 1 OT Goal of that series too.

I'M SERIOUS..NO TONELLI = NO CUPS

 

[ScaredStreit]

That's an argument against Nystrom having his number retired, not one for Tonelli as far as I'm concerned.

Agreed 100%.

Honestly people who're saying that without Tonelli or Nystrom we'd have no cups....really? We're not talking about Potvin/Smith/Bossy/Trottier here.

I believe the gold standard should be retired. The 10/10. The A+. NOT the gold plated, 9/10, or A-.

Are my ideas too strict? maybe. But I'd rather have a higher standard than a lower one. I'd rather have too few people retired than too many. Remember retired numbers are forever.

 

[tommyhendo15]

So Billy Smith was a Gold Standard?
Not even a .900 career save percentage
and I loved Billy
All 6 up there should and Tonelli should too

 

[MatthewBarnabysTears]

So Billy Smith was a Gold Standard?
Not even a .900 career save percentage
and I loved Billy
All 6 up there should and Tonelli should too

but how did that compare to other goalies of his era? You can't compre '90s/2000s goalie stats to 1980s goalie stats.

 

[PK Cronin]

So Billy Smith was a Gold Standard?
Not even a .900 career save percentage
and I loved Billy
All 6 up there should and Tonelli should too

He was, yes. http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_SavePercentage.php

 

[ScaredStreit]

So Billy Smith was a Gold Standard?
Not even a .900 career save percentage
and I loved Billy
All 6 up there should and Tonelli should too

A) Smith was known to a playoff performer, citing his regular season stats is misleading. Take a look at his regular season + playoff stats, it's truly remarkable.

B) Also remember we're talking about a VERY different time than now. The save percentage is VERY misleading. For example:

In 1982 Smith's save percentage was 90% (0.900). Not that impressive right?

Look up who won the Vezina that year.

C) 305-233 record
88-36 playoff record

Billy Smith is the only Islander goaltender to ever:

-Win the Stanley Cup as the starter (4 times)
-Win the Conn Smythe
-Win the Vezina
-Win the Jennings (with Melanson same year)
-Win 19 playoff series in a row
-Make the all-star team (DP did as well)
-Win 300+ games
-Be inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame

The real question is how is Smith NOT the gold standard among Islander goaltenders?

 

[tommyhendo15]

I said Billy should be up there,
this post is for Tonelli
Tonelli should be too

First, the whole retired number thing is a little bit of a gimmick, organizations usually invite players back that played for them after they get put into the HOF as a PR ploy...that's really all it is 90% of the time. Don't jump all over me with the exceptions, I know there are, I said 90% of the time..(The Islanders are too stupid to realize Pat Lafontaine is in the HOF and about 85% of his production came in an Isles uniform...the freakin' Sabres retired his number, he didn't even scoire 200 goals with the Sabres, I'm all for both 16 and 27 going to the rafters)

Second, I don't know why I do, I just PERSONALLY, find retired numbers meaningful, what retired numbers SHOULD BE are for players who make THE MOST CONTRIBUTIONS to THEIR teams WHEN they are playing for THEIR TEAMS. When John Tonelli Played for the Islanders
*drafted by the organization
* 4 stanley cups
*Two all star games
*90 and 100 point seasons
*30 and 40 point seasons
*assisted BOTH OT goals in the '80 cup finals...Nystrom and POTVIN IN GAME 1could have lost to the Flyers 4-2 very easily without Tonelli
* 200 goals as an Islander (300 goal scorer on career does not hurt, by the way, the 200 goal plateau is all Messier(Rangers) Graves (Rangers) Gretzky (Kings) Bure (Canucks) did for their respective teams who retired their numbers...they did not win four cups with those teams...and I repeat, Lafontaine's number is retired by a team he didn't score 200 goals with)
* He saved the dynasty against Pittsburgh in '82...IT WAS OVER...tied the game in final minutes and scored game winner in OT
*scored record breaking goal against Rockies in final minute in '82
*Remember Morrow's game 5 OT goal against the Rangers in '84, for what it's worth,Tonelli tied game 4 at the Garden in the 3rd period...game 5 never happens without that...if you're not impressed I understand...on that Morrow goal...in classic Tonelli fashion...Tonelli takes down two Ranger defenders before the puck comes out before Sutter and Morrow get off their shots
* He often flanked Bossy and Trottier and wasn't just a "banana line" member, but he was tough when we needed toughness and a scorer when we needed a goal
* He was a LW, he was traded 30 years ago and guess what? We are still looking for a God Dam LW to flank Tavares and Okposo...NOBODY...I mean Nobody has replaced him since...who...are you going to say Derek King?? Go ahead...someone please say Derek King
* He was the nicest guy who played hard every night for the fans and his teammates and the NHL needs more John Tonelli's today...These dead pan post game interviews with players are awful
* If that's not a Gold Standard...do me a favor...call me when someone else for the Islanders or anyone else in an NHL uniform does all of the above at 516 503 8966
* The petition is right here and when they retire his number...don't be there if you don't want to go...
http://www.change.org/p/arthur-stap...retired-before-the-islanders-move-to-brooklyn

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Support John Tonelli's #27 being retired and sign the petition here...
Not just sentimental because of the last year
He is truly deserving
NO CUPS WITHOUT HIM...NONE!

http://www.change.org/petitions/art...retired-before-the-islanders-move-to-brooklyn

I've also written a blog/article that was featured on Islanders Insight and has been getting passed around Twitter...
https://sites.google.com/site/theuntoldlegendofjohntonelli/

I CAN'T TELL YOU THE NUMBER OF LESSER PLAYERS WHO HAVE BEEN HONORED BY THEIR TEAMS AROUND THE NHL...STARTING WITH DALE HUNTER OF THE CAPS AND WHY ANY TRUE DYNASTY ERA ISLES FAN WOULD WANT TO VOICE THEIR OPPOSITION TO THIS IS AMAZING....A JOKE ACTUALLY....WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO LOSE IF TONELLI RECEIVES THE HIGHEST HONOR???...WE ALL HAVE TO SIT ON OUR HANDS AND WAIT FOR WAYNE GRETZKY BEFORE SHOWING DEEP APPRECIATION FOR GREAT PLAYERS?? READ THE BLOG OR GOOGLE IT "THE UNTOLD LEGEND OF JOHN TONELLI"

AND NO, IT DOESN'T OPEN THE GATE FOR GORING, WHO I LOVE, GORING DIDN'T EVEN SCORE 100 GOALS FOR THE ISLES

What do you have to lose if he doesn't? Calm down.

 

[MatthewBarnabysTears]

What do you have to lose if he doesn't? Calm down.

I think the "what do you have to lose?" argument favors number retirement. It's about affirming fans' memories. If you loved the contributions of John Tonelli, or LaFontaine, or whoever, it's the organization telling you that they agree and that future fans will be raised to value that history similarly.

The same is true of minor honors too. It's genuinely annoying that LaFontaine, Turgeon, and Palffy aren't in the team hall of fame. Or, on an even less important level, it annoyed me that the team's top 15 Isles poll opted to pander to the youngest fans by listing Okposo as a candidate but not someone like Jason Blake (who was arguably our most consistent forward for a four year span during which we made the playoffs 3 times, but who apparently rubbed management the wrong way on the way out).

Basically, I just find it incredibly insulting that the Isles official narrative of the franchise's history is extensively dictated by who Wang/Snow get along with. I could accept any sort of consistent standards, but when the team doesn't honor guys because of personal fueds it's like a slap in the face to fans' memories.

 

[ScaredStreit]

I said Billy should be up there,
this post is for Tonelli
Tonelli should be too

First, the whole retired number thing is a little bit of a gimmick, organizations usually invite players back that played for them after they get put into the HOF as a PR ploy...that's really all it is 90% of the time. Don't jump all over me with the exceptions, I know there are, I said 90% of the time..(The Islanders are too stupid to realize Pat Lafontaine is in the HOF and about 85% of his production came in an Isles uniform...the freakin' Sabres retired his number, he didn't even scoire 200 goals with the Sabres, I'm all for both 16 and 27 going to the rafters)

Second, I don't know why I do, I just PERSONALLY, find retired numbers meaningful, what retired numbers SHOULD BE are for players who make THE MOST CONTRIBUTIONS to THEIR teams WHEN they are playing for THEIR TEAMS. When John Tonelli Played for the Islanders
*drafted by the organization
* 4 stanley cups
*Two all star games
*90 and 100 point seasons
*30 and 40 point seasons
*assisted BOTH OT goals in the '80 cup finals...Nystrom and POTVIN IN GAME 1could have lost to the Flyers 4-2 very easily without Tonelli
* 200 goals as an Islander (300 goal scorer on career does not hurt, by the way, the 200 goal plateau is all Messier(Rangers) Graves (Rangers) Gretzky (Kings) Bure (Canucks) did for their respective teams who retired their numbers...they did not win four cups with those teams...and I repeat, Lafontaine's number is retired by a team he didn't score 200 goals with)
* He saved the dynasty against Pittsburgh in '82...IT WAS OVER...tied the game in final minutes and scored game winner in OT
*scored record breaking goal against Rockies in final minute in '82
*Remember Morrow's game 5 OT goal against the Rangers in '84, for what it's worth,Tonelli tied game 4 at the Garden in the 3rd period...game 5 never happens without that...if you're not impressed I understand...on that Morrow goal...in classic Tonelli fashion...Tonelli takes down two Ranger defenders before the puck comes out before Sutter and Morrow get off their shots
* He often flanked Bossy and Trottier and wasn't just a "banana line" member, but he was tough when we needed toughness and a scorer when we needed a goal
* He was a LW, he was traded 30 years ago and guess what? We are still looking for a God Dam LW to flank Tavares and Okposo...NOBODY...I mean Nobody has replaced him since...who...are you going to say Derek King?? Go ahead...someone please say Derek King
* He was the nicest guy who played hard every night for the fans and his teammates and the NHL needs more John Tonelli's today...These dead pan post game interviews with players are awful
* If that's not a Gold Standard...do me a favor...call me when someone else for the Islanders or anyone else in an NHL uniform does all of the above at 516 503 8966
* The petition is right here and when they retire his number...don't be there if you don't want to go...
http://www.change.org/p/arthur-stap...retired-before-the-islanders-move-to-brooklyn

With all due respect the Smith backlash was because you claimed that Smith was NOT the gold standard. And you never explained why. You then cited that his career "wasn't even 90% save"....yet ironically that's the same exact save % he had when he won the Vezina.

You cannot compare Tonelli's importance to the team with Smith's. Smith IS the gold standard among Islander goaltenders. The only person who ever had the "potential" to overcome that was DP (who injuries obviously prevented that happening). Smith is HANDS DOWN the greatest goaltender to ever lace up the skates in an Islander jersey.

Is Tonelli the greatest forward to ever lace up the Islander skates? No. He's clearly not top 2, and arguments could be made for Lafontaine, Gillies (in terms of importance).

Smith=gold standard
Tonelli-silver standard....and there's NOTHING wrong with that.

Tonelli deserves the Islander HOF, but honestly that's it.

 

[PK Cronin]

I'd go as far as to say that I I'd be on the fence about considering retiring Tavares' #91 if he was a lifelong Islander and won one cup. He'd have won have a cup in a more challenging era and would be the main piece of the team. I'm thinking I'd want to see him do it twice before his number is retired, because those other guys up there accomplished quite a lot.

 

[ScaredStreit]

I'd go as far as to say that I I'd be on the fence about considering retiring Tavares' #91 if he was a lifelong Islander and won one cup. He'd have won have a cup in a more challenging era and would be the main piece of the team. I'm thinking I'd want to see him do it twice before his number is retired, because those other guys up there accomplished quite a lot.

If the Isles win the cup with JT or if he stays a career Islander for 20+ years and keeps playing at this level I'd be ok with his number being retired.

 

[MatthewBarnabysTears]

If the Isles win the cup with JT or if he stays a career Islander for 20+ years and keeps playing at this level I'd be ok with his number being retired.

I would retire John Tavares's number today if it guaranteed he'd resign with us when his current deal ends.