John Tonelli - # Not Retired = Disgrace

[doublechili]

In the dynasty years there was a Big 4: Trots, Bossy, Potvin and Smith.

Then there was a 2nd group comprised probably of Tonelli, Gillies, Goring/Brent, Morrow and Persson.

Nystrom was a great clutch player and very important to the team, but he was in the next group with guys like Bourne, Langevin, Jonsson, etc.

If you ranked the dynasty team in order, Tonelli would probably slot in somewhere between #5 and #7, IMO.

 

[bigtim1988]

I'm watching the 1981-1982 SCF isles vs van on the NHL network, and that thought crossed my mind as well. The guy was a big part of the dynasty, but I feel like its a situation where if you retire Tonelli, you have to retire Goring as well.

 

[tommyhendo15]

Join Push to Retire 27 for JT

Read my article or at least scroll to bottom to sign petition and join facebook group pushing to honor John Tonelli

https://sites.google.com/site/theuntoldlegendofjohntonelli/

 

[ScaredStreit]

No. Tonelli was great-there's no doubt about it. But I'm a small room kind of a person. Retired #'s should be reserved only for the greatest franchise players of all time. Nobody else. If it was my choice I'd unretire Nystrom....hell even Gillies is borderline to me.

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

Why was he traded?

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/03/12/sports/resch-traded-tonelli-joins-flames-faces-islanders.html

I hope it is okay to post a link.

 

[A Pointed Stick]

Disgrace? If so then Montreal has disgraced many players who were better than Tonelli. If they add him I would be ok with it, but it sounds more like an emotional last-season thing tbhwy.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Disgrace? If so then Montreal has disgraced many players who were better than Tonelli. If they add him I would be ok with it, but it sounds more like an emotional last-season thing tbhwy.

Agreed 100%. If we were in the NVMC for the next 2 seasons we wouldn't hear this talk. The fact that it's only being brought up due to the last year in NVMC, signals to me that he's not really deserving.

 

[MatthewBarnabysTears]

Agreed 100%. If we were in the NVMC for the next 2 seasons we wouldn't hear this talk. The fact that it's only being brought up due to the last year in NVMC, signals to me that he's not really deserving.

I wasn't around for the dynasty, and I remember hearing talk about how Tonelli should have his number retired for pretty much my entire life as a hockey fan

 

[ScaredStreit]

I wasn't around for the dynasty, and I remember hearing talk about how Tonelli should have his number retired for pretty much my entire life as a hockey fan

I also wasn't around for the dynasty and have never heard the talk about retiring Tonelli.

In fact I've been on HF for nearly a decade now and have never heard anyone suggest that Tonelli's # should be retired. A few people have chimed in from time to time saying that IF we were going to retired another player it should be Tonelli, but that's only a IF. If you're aware of a thread before this off-season with several people suggesting that Tonelli deserves to have his number retired, I'd be interested in seeing it.

But honestly why does Tonelli deserve to have his number retired?

 

[MatthewBarnabysTears]

I also wasn't around for the dynasty and have never heard the talk about retiring Tonelli.

In fact I've been on HF for nearly a decade now and have never heard anyone suggest that Tonelli's # should be retired. A few people have chimed in from time to time saying that IF we were going to retired another player it should be Tonelli, but that's only a IF. If you're aware of a thread before this off-season with several people suggesting that Tonelli deserves to have his number retired, I'd be interested in seeing it.

But honestly why does Tonelli deserve to have his number retired?

Well the obvious logic is that if Nystrom is retired than anyone better who won 4 cups has a claim.

Personally, the one that makes no sense is not retiring Lafontaine — he made the HOF based in large part because of his Islanders career. Even if you have a "small room"mentality, that's a paradigmatic case for number retirement.

I don't actually think the Isles can afford to have a "small room" mentality though. Fact is, the rest of the league barely seems to remember we have a history — or, if they do, they don't remember we have a history beyond the dynasty. It took us way too long to establish the team hall of fame, and since then we've either forgotten about it or inducted people seemingly at random (Bob Bourne? Pat Flatley?).

 

[Doshell Propivo]

No. Tonelli was great-there's no doubt about it. But I'm a small room kind of a person. Retired #'s should be reserved only for the greatest franchise players of all time. Nobody else. If it was my choice I'd unretire Nystrom....hell even Gillies is borderline to me.

Agree. 5, 19, 22 and 31 should be the only ones up there. Even Arbour and Torrey is a bit cheesy.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Fact is, the rest of the league barely seems to remember we have a history — or, if they do, they don't remember we have a history beyond the dynasty.

We do? We've won TWO playoff series in 27 years. Aside from 1993, there is little history to remember.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Well the obvious logic is that if Nystrom is retired than anyone better who won 4 cups has a claim.

Personally, the one that makes no sense is not retiring Lafontaine — he made the HOF based in large part because of his Islanders career. Even if you have a "small room"mentality, that's a paradigmatic case for number retirement.

I don't actually think the Isles can afford to have a "small room" mentality though. Fact is, the rest of the league barely seems to remember we have a history — or, if they do, they don't remember we have a history beyond the dynasty. It took us way too long to establish the team hall of fame, and since then we've either forgotten about it or inducted people seemingly at random (Bob Bourne? Pat Flatley?).

Who not on the dynasty team do you think deserves to have their number retired? Keep in mind Lafontaine played for the 84 team.

Honestly the rest of the league doesn't remember our history post-dynasty because there's just not that much to remember. What is there to remember? We haven't won a single playoff series since before Reinhart and Strome were even alive.


As for people not recalling our history? I disagree. Look at the HOH forums, or main forums. Potvin is consistently among the top 5-6 Dmen of all time on HF, and Bossy's consistently mentioned as one of the best goal scorers (along with Gretzky/Lemieux), and Trottier's consistently mentioned among the best two-way forwards.

How often do you cite Glenn Anderson as being a great player? Oiler fans can make your same exact argument against fans of other teams.

I happen to agree with you 100% that Nystrom being retired opens the doors to more player's names being brought up. Which is precisely why I'm saying we should have a closed door policy and that Nystrom (and most likely Gillies) should get the boot from the room.

 

[MatthewBarnabysTears]

We do? We've won TWO playoff series in 27 years. Aside from 1993, there is little history to remember.

I don't agree. I spent years watching terrible Isles teams, and tons of fans have spent crazy amounts of money watching terrible Isles teams, and we have memories that deserve recognition. It obviously doesn't have to be via number retirement. (I'd add Lafontiane's number to the retired list, butI'd leave it at that. I don't believe in "un-retiring" numbers, but I don't think I would have been in favor of retiring Nystrom's number.) But there's no reason the Isles shouldn't adequately recognize their best players from different eras, even the bad ones. They've done a little of this (Kenny Jonsson and Flatley on the team HOF banner), but they can do more. For example, how about some acknowledgement of the roles legitimate stars like Pierre Turgeon and Ziggy Palffy played here? Or a universally beloved fan favorite like Steve Webb? It can even be via something as small as a home game where one of them is an honored guest or something. I just hate the way the Milbury and then the Wang/Snow regimes have seemed so ambivalent about our history.

 

[ScaredStreit]

I don't agree. I spent years watching terrible Isles teams, and tons of fans have spent crazy amounts of money watching terrible Isles teams, and we have memories that deserve recognition. It obviously doesn't have to be via number retirement. (I'd add Lafontiane's number to the retired list, butI'd leave it at that. I don't believe in "un-retiring" numbers, but I don't think I would have been in favor of retiring Nystrom's number.) But there's no reason the Isles shouldn't adequately recognize their best players from different eras, even the bad ones. They've done a little of this (Kenny Jonsson and Flatley on the team HOF banner), but they can do more. For example, how about some acknowledgement of the roles legitimate stars like Pierre Turgeon and Ziggy Palffy played here? Or a universally beloved fan favorite like Steve Webb? It can even be via something as small as a home game where one of them is an honored guest or something. I just hate the way the Milbury and then the Wang/Snow regimes have seemed so ambivalent about our history.

The Isles have acknowledged the best players from all eras in the Isles hall of fame. The next step above that is having a # retired. Do you really think we should retire Palffy, Flatley, Turgeon, Jonsson, etc. #s? The hall of fame is fine.

More importantly we have to stop living in the past. The dynasty was 30+ years ago. Yes it's great...but it's been time to move on. Let's focus on JT/KO/Hamoinc/etc.

 

[beach]

Even Arbour and Torrey is a bit cheesy.

That tells me you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[MatthewBarnabysTears]

The Isles have acknowledged the best players from all eras in the Isles hall of fame. The next step above that is having a # retired. Do you really think we should retire Palffy, Flatley, Turgeon, Jonsson, etc. #s? The hall of fame is fine.

More importantly we have to stop living in the past. The dynasty was 30+ years ago. Yes it's great...but it's been time to move on. Let's focus on JT/KO/Hamoinc/etc.

Definitely not. But Palffy and Turgeon aren't in the team's HOF, and neither is LaFontaine. I'm tired of this team only acknowledging those alums that kiss ass to current management. That shouldn't be how history works. The Mets suck at this sort of thing, but even they let Darryl Strawberry address the fans from prison when he was voted onto the 40 year anniversary team.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Definitely not. But Palffy and Turgeon aren't in the team's HOF, and neither is LaFontaine. I'm tired of this team only acknowledging those alums that kiss ass to current management. That shouldn't be how history works. The Mets suck at this sort of thing, but even they let Darryl Strawberry address the fans from prison when he was voted onto the 40 year anniversary team.

Palffy and Turgeon aren't you're right....but the HOF is VERY new. Give it some time. This time always has nights where it looks back on the past....mainly because the current team blows. I'm not looking behind-I'm looking ahead, and I expect the franchise to do so as well.

 

[beach]

Tonelli's number definitely belongs in the rafters. Anyone that doesn't think so either did not watch him play back then or looks purely at stats (which by the way are very good). Tonelli's contribution when he was on the ice could not be measured in just goals and assists. His effort was unmatched by any other Islander, and if you watched the 1982 playoff series against the Pens, you know that he basically is the reason why the Dynasty can be called a Dynasty. He willed the Islanders to victory in game 5.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Tonelli's number definitely belongs in the rafters. Anyone that doesn't think so either did not watch him play back then or looks purely at stats (which by the way are very good). Tonelli's contribution when he was on the ice could not be measured in just goals and assists. His effort was unmatched by any other Islander, and if you watched the 1982 playoff series against the Pens, you know that he basically is the reason why the Dynasty can be called a Dynasty. He willed the Islanders to victory in game 5.

So due to one game he deserves to be retired? Are you suggesting that Volek deserves to be retired as well?

Look we all know that Tonelli was a GREAT player. There's no getting around that. But he was NEVER near the level of Trottier/Bossy/Potvin/Smith in terms of being important to the Islanders. NEVER.

In 1980 for example (obviously the start of the dynasty):

-Bossy scored more goals than Tonelli did points
-Trottier scored more assists than Tonelli did points
-Potvin scored 3 less points....in 46 less games

The moment you allow Tonelli in you're opening the doors to conversations to MANY more players. It's why I believe in a small room.

Perfect example: The Isles retiring Nystrom/Gillies is the reason why even talking about retiring Tonelli. If they weren't retired I doubt this conversation occurs.

 

[beach]

So due to one game he deserves to be retired? Are you suggesting that Volek deserves to be retired as well?

Did you read the entire post?

 

[ScaredStreit]

Did you read the entire post?

Sure I did, but you could say the same thing about guys like Goring, Morrow and Persson. Do they get retired? After all they too were important for the dynasty.

The real question is what warrants a player being retired by a team? My answer is to be among the best ever to play for that team over an extended period of time. The elite of the elite. Tonelli was never on that level.

Why water down retired numbers?

 

[MatthewBarnabysTears]

Sure I did, but you could say the same thing about guys like Goring, Morrow and Persson. Do they get retired? After all they too were important for the dynasty.

The real question is what warrants a player being retired by a team? My answer is to be among the best ever to play for that team over an extended period of time. The elite of the elite. Tonelli was never on that level.

Why water down retired numbers?

Here's a question: Do you think it makes sense for Reggie Jackson to be in the HOF as a Yankee/have his number retired by the Yankees? He only played 5 years with the Yankees, but most of 10 seasons with Oakland, where hw on an MVP and finished top-5 in MVP voting 4 times. After all, it's basically all based on one game in the 1977 world series.

The way I see it, there's a bunch of acceptable paths to immortality. Potvin/Bossy/Trottier/Smith are merely the gold standard; there's many other paths to greatness.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Here's a question: Do you think it makes sense for Reggie Jackson to be in the HOF as a Yankee/have his number retired by the Yankees? He only played 5 years with the Yankees, but most of 10 seasons with Oakland, where hw on an MVP and finished top-5 in MVP voting 4 times. After all, it's basically all based on one game in the 1977 world series.

The way I see it, there's a bunch of acceptable paths to immortality. Potvin/Bossy/Trottier/Smith are merely the gold standard; there's many other paths to greatness).

To be honest I'm not really baseball fan at all. Obviously I know who Reggie Jackson is, but I don't know enough to give you an answer.

Also on your "greatness" comment I agree 100%. But not every great player should have their number retired. It should be reserved only for the gold standard.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

That tells me you have no idea what you are talking about.

A banner with a picture of bow tie and a banner with a 4 digit number isn't cheesy?