Probably yeah. In fact using him probably isn't the best way to make a case for St. Louis, who I'd take over guys much higher in the list and much more worthy of the top 100.Cournoyer should be borderline for a top 200 IMO
Cournoyer should be borderline for a top 200 IMO
(12) Stan Mikita (C) - Overshadowed by Hull, Mikita may have been better
Pretty good list. I doubt there are only few guys who can put up a list that is "better" without using a lot of other opinions.
One question tough, Crosby and Selanne appear on the list but no Ovechkin? Did I miss something or do you, Joe, just think he isn't good enough yet? I'd wager he is going to be on that list really soon. Considering you wrote this: "Hence, I'm not necessarily looking for the better player, as in text book definitions of what a hockey player should be, but for players with the greatest careers and greatest legacies. Therefore the best player is not necessarily the greatest player. "
41-50
Boom Boom Geoffrion (RW) - Loud And Proud
Martin Brodeur (G) - Hockey's Winningest Goalie
Peter Forsberg (C) - Swede Sensation
Glenn Hall (G) - Mr. Goalie
Brett Hull (RW) - Hull of a shot
Alexander Ovechkin (LW) - Alexander The Great
Frank Mahovlich (LW) - The Big M
Ron Francis (C) - Quiet Excellence
Milt Schmidt (C) - Mr. Boston Bruins
Dickie Moore (LW) - The Man Who Would Make The Fans Forget About The Rocket
What do you guys think of this? Seems a bit high to me and I don't particularly care for the reasoning. Or really the idea that he's above a lot of guys in the 10s and 20s, Jagr in particular (not that I want to turn this into a Jagr thread), who had more championships and more Rosses.
However, I will openly admit to being biased against small players.
Kharlamov at 28 (Top Russian player). Makarov at 54. Uhuh. Rrrright
It's just incredible how the face-to-face comparison between USSR/Russia and Canada doesn't seem to matter at all to many people. It's as if all the Summit and Super series never happened.
It would be cool if a list like this would be made by a Russian (as long as the Kharlamov nostalgia doesn't get in the way ). Just for comparison / perspectives sakes. Mikita would probably not crack the top 30 and Dionne the top 50.
I see. Thats all is it? Borderliner? Yvon Cournoyer? Ok.
Kharlamov at 28 (Top Russian player). Makarov at 54. Uhuh. Rrrright
It's just incredible how the face-to-face comparison between USSR/Russia and Canada doesn't seem to matter at all to many people. It's as if all the Summit and Super series never happened.
It would be cool if a list like this would be made by a Russian (as long as the Kharlamov nostalgia doesn't get in the way ). Just for comparison / perspectives sakes. Mikita would probably not crack the top 30 and Dionne the top 50.
Honestly, his regular season record probably isn't top 300....
It would be cool if a list like this would be made by a Russian (as long as the Kharlamov nostalgia doesn't get in the way ). Just for comparison / perspectives sakes.
Honestly, his regular season record probably isn't top 300. Just two top 10 finishes in points (6th and 8th), despite playing with excellent centers, and without really providing much value but offense. I realize Cournoyer's true value is in the playoffs so he's much higher than his regular season stats would indicate, but how high can he go?
If the list is "NHL-only," then Tretiak and Kharlamov should not be on it at all. If it's not, then Makarov (9x scoring leader) and Petrov (5x scoring leader) would end up a tad higher than they are. Certainly above Mikita and Dionne.I agree, and we do have Members here from or still based in Russia & former Soviet Block States. Have you searched the web to see if any such lists have been compiled by Russian hockey writers, former players or Coaches?... and not seeing any anti Euro bias in Joes' listings. He kept it to the NHL game pretty much, his prerogative. Perhaps its worthy that we here compile an All Time International Player List? Say Top 25 at each Position & Top 25 Overall?
Whatever the reasoning, you'll find that this isn't a particularly out-of-line assessment, based on the voting in the "History of Hockey" project currently underway.(12) Stan Mikita (C) - Overshadowed by Hull, Mikita may have been betterWhat do you guys think of this? Seems a bit high to me and I don't particularly care for the reasoning.
Products of our experiences... products of our experiences. I accept this state of affairs as the natural consequence of posting on an English-language board, amongst a predominently North American audience. We can be incredulous- rail against it... but it ain't gonna change for me OR you.It's just incredible how the face-to-face comparison between USSR/Russia and Canada doesn't seem to matter at all to many people. It's as if all the Summit and Super series never happened.
Great list for the most part but I'll take this opportunity to stick up for a guy that I think made a statement last year that should put up with these guys easily. Martin St. Louis. He has the advantage over Cournoyer (picking on him because he's the last forward there) in every way but Cups. 2 scoring titles to 0, 1 Hart/Pearson to 0, better all-star finishes, more points, 5 top-6 finishes (three top 2!!!) to two top 8s, I mean that's not even close. To me there's no way any amount of Cups makes up this kind of individual excellence. Especially since this is a guy with a great Cup run and absolutely fantastic playoff stats.
Honestly there are a handful of guys I'd take him over on there. What has Robitaille done that this guy hasn't other than rack up a big career point total? I'd take St. Louis as a player over him without hesitation and I think he's dominated enough to make up for the lack of compiling.
Seeing Datsyuk near the end also made me think of St. Louis, he's a guy that never used to show up on these lists. I think these two have earned their way into this elite group the last couple of years.
I'm sorry but this list has Canadiana written all over it. The competition between Canada and European countries has been very tight over the last 40 years or so, yet the top 20 is made solely of Canadians (with the exception of Hašek who is 20th, 10 spots below Roy)? I think the hfboard consensus is that Jágr is better than Sakic, Yzerman or Messier, and he certainly is not worse than Lafleur by 18 spots. One could also question Dionne over Ovechkin, Esposito 11 spots over Kharlamov and so on.
When considering St Louis and his place in history it matters that he spent most of his career in a weak conference and a terrible division. This season's interconference records should cast a shadow over the high point totals from some of the Eastern stars last year. In retrospect there's no way St Louis had as good a season as Patrick Kane, for example.
He also spent a lot of time on skilled top lines that didn't play any defence. Outside of his excellent 2003-04 season he's been a minus player for his career despite playing with all-star linemates. There's a reason Team Canada passed over him in his prime - they wanted all-around players. Cournoyer played a big role for Canada in 1972 as the top RW.
That's your problem. 1972 and 1981 Soviet teams barely played together at all prior to their tournaments, it's a myth.International tournaments between Canadian junior teams or Canadian teams thrown together with two weeks to mesh, vs. Czechoslovak, Swedish and Russian teams that train together for decades...
I don't give much credit to international tournaments pre-1989.