Joe Pelletier's Top 100 Hockey Players of All-Time

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Cournoyer should be borderline for a top 200 IMO

 

[revolverjgw]

Cournoyer should be borderline for a top 200 IMO

Probably yeah. In fact using him probably isn't the best way to make a case for St. Louis, who I'd take over guys much higher in the list and much more worthy of the top 100.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Agreed on St. Louis and Datsyuk. While Cornouyer is rated too high, he is better than borderline top 200. He was integral on Team Canada 1972 and had a couple of excellent playoffs runs. Set the record for goals in a playoff until it was eclipsed by Leach.

 

[Killion]

Cournoyer should be borderline for a top 200 IMO

I see. Thats all is it? Borderliner? Yvon Cournoyer? Ok.

 

[billybudd]

(12) Stan Mikita (C) - Overshadowed by Hull, Mikita may have been better

What do you guys think of this? Seems a bit high to me and I don't particularly care for the reasoning. Or really the idea that he's above a lot of guys in the 10s and 20s, Jagr in particular (not that I want to turn this into a Jagr thread), who had more championships and more Rosses.

However, I will openly admit to being biased against small players.

 

[shazariahl]

That list was actually way better overall than I expected it to be. And given that he was using "impact on the game" as one of his major criteria, I can excuse things like Roy being rated so highly above Hasek and Jagr being down at 23rd (IIRC). I think Jagr was a better player than LaFleur (I didn't used to think so, but his longevity has been great, and peaks/primes were similar) but if you are rating them on impact as well as talent, I can see LaFleur beating him out. Probably not by that much mind you, but whatever.

Point is though, that most lists end up over rating compilers quite badly. The top 3-5 are usually solid, and then after that things get crazy. His list has the same top 7 I usually see here, and 5-7 are pretty highly debated so I think his list was pretty decent for the most part.

 

[Plural]

Pretty good list. I doubt there are only few guys who can put up a list that is "better" without using a lot of other opinions.

One question tough, Crosby and Selanne appear on the list but no Ovechkin? Did I miss something or do you, Joe, just think he isn't good enough yet? I'd wager he is going to be on that list really soon. Considering you wrote this: "Hence, I'm not necessarily looking for the better player, as in text book definitions of what a hockey player should be, but for players with the greatest careers and greatest legacies. Therefore the best player is not necessarily the greatest player. "

 

[God]

Pretty good list. I doubt there are only few guys who can put up a list that is "better" without using a lot of other opinions.

One question tough, Crosby and Selanne appear on the list but no Ovechkin? Did I miss something or do you, Joe, just think he isn't good enough yet? I'd wager he is going to be on that list really soon. Considering you wrote this: "Hence, I'm not necessarily looking for the better player, as in text book definitions of what a hockey player should be, but for players with the greatest careers and greatest legacies. Therefore the best player is not necessarily the greatest player. "

He's there.

41-50
Boom Boom Geoffrion (RW) - Loud And Proud
Martin Brodeur (G) - Hockey's Winningest Goalie
Peter Forsberg (C) - Swede Sensation
Glenn Hall (G) - Mr. Goalie
Brett Hull (RW) - Hull of a shot
Alexander Ovechkin (LW) - Alexander The Great
Frank Mahovlich (LW) - The Big M
Ron Francis (C) - Quiet Excellence
Milt Schmidt (C) - Mr. Boston Bruins
Dickie Moore (LW) - The Man Who Would Make The Fans Forget About The Rocket

 

[Plural]

Yeah, so I missed something.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

What do you guys think of this? Seems a bit high to me and I don't particularly care for the reasoning. Or really the idea that he's above a lot of guys in the 10s and 20s, Jagr in particular (not that I want to turn this into a Jagr thread), who had more championships and more Rosses.

However, I will openly admit to being biased against small players.

Mikita was a great playmaker and elite player for his time. Didn't see much of him, but I have seen lots of highlights of Hull. For me, Hull is so close to the big four. Led the league in goals 7x. Set new standards for goal scoring. Granted Mikita played a role in that, but they didn't often play on the same line; pp mostly. Had Hull not jumped to the WHA, we could be looking at him as the leader in goals all-time.

 

[Sentinel]

Kharlamov at 28 (Top Russian player). Makarov at 54. Uhuh. Rrrright

It's just incredible how the face-to-face comparison between USSR/Russia and Canada doesn't seem to matter at all to many people. It's as if all the Summit and Super series never happened.

It would be cool if a list like this would be made by a Russian (as long as the Kharlamov nostalgia doesn't get in the way ). Just for comparison / perspectives sakes. Mikita would probably not crack the top 30 and Dionne the top 50.

 

[gudzilla]

Kharlamov at 28 (Top Russian player). Makarov at 54. Uhuh. Rrrright

It's just incredible how the face-to-face comparison between USSR/Russia and Canada doesn't seem to matter at all to many people. It's as if all the Summit and Super series never happened.

It would be cool if a list like this would be made by a Russian (as long as the Kharlamov nostalgia doesn't get in the way ). Just for comparison / perspectives sakes. Mikita would probably not crack the top 30 and Dionne the top 50.

the interesting part about this list is that it's not the BEST players, but the greatest

i really like that twist on it

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I see. Thats all is it? Borderliner? Yvon Cournoyer? Ok.

Honestly, his regular season record probably isn't top 300. Just two top 10 finishes in points (6th and 8th), despite playing with excellent centers, and without really providing much value but offense. I realize Cournoyer's true value is in the playoffs so he's much higher than his regular season stats would indicate, but how high can he go?

 

[BraveCanadian]

Kharlamov at 28 (Top Russian player). Makarov at 54. Uhuh. Rrrright

It's just incredible how the face-to-face comparison between USSR/Russia and Canada doesn't seem to matter at all to many people. It's as if all the Summit and Super series never happened.

It would be cool if a list like this would be made by a Russian (as long as the Kharlamov nostalgia doesn't get in the way ). Just for comparison / perspectives sakes. Mikita would probably not crack the top 30 and Dionne the top 50.

Huh? Based on that ranking I would assume completely the opposite.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Joe Pelletier's blog is probably the second most important English language source on non-NHL Europeans that this forum uses (after Arthur Chidlovski's website). Accusing him of being anti-European is certainly a new one.

 

[Killion]

Honestly, his regular season record probably isn't top 300....

Likely not, but still, one of my all time favorites. Being subjective I suppose.

It would be cool if a list like this would be made by a Russian (as long as the Kharlamov nostalgia doesn't get in the way ). Just for comparison / perspectives sakes.

I agree, and we do have Members here from or still based in Russia & former Soviet Block States. Have you searched the web to see if any such lists have been compiled by Russian hockey writers, former players or Coaches?... and not seeing any anti Euro bias in Joes' listings. He kept it to the NHL game pretty much, his prerogative. Perhaps its worthy that we here compile an All Time International Player List? Say Top 25 at each Position & Top 25 Overall?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Four Lines

Honestly, his regular season record probably isn't top 300. Just two top 10 finishes in points (6th and 8th), despite playing with excellent centers, and without really providing much value but offense. I realize Cournoyer's true value is in the playoffs so he's much higher than his regular season stats would indicate, but how high can he go?

Happens when a forward plays on a team rolling four lines as opposed to teams rolling three lines. Compare Yvan Cournoyer to Ken Hodge or Rod Gilbert or others on three line teams.

 

[Sentinel]

I agree, and we do have Members here from or still based in Russia & former Soviet Block States. Have you searched the web to see if any such lists have been compiled by Russian hockey writers, former players or Coaches?... and not seeing any anti Euro bias in Joes' listings. He kept it to the NHL game pretty much, his prerogative. Perhaps its worthy that we here compile an All Time International Player List? Say Top 25 at each Position & Top 25 Overall?

If the list is "NHL-only," then Tretiak and Kharlamov should not be on it at all. If it's not, then Makarov (9x scoring leader) and Petrov (5x scoring leader) would end up a tad higher than they are. Certainly above Mikita and Dionne.

When comparing Russians to NHLers, we should use the same metric as when comparing different eras in the NHL: peer domination. Plus we have the luxury of eye tests and comparative stats when evaluating head-to-head international meetings, which we don't have when comparing, say Bourque to Shore.

I haven't come across such a list, but I'll look

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

(12) Stan Mikita (C) - Overshadowed by Hull, Mikita may have been better

What do you guys think of this? Seems a bit high to me and I don't particularly care for the reasoning.

Whatever the reasoning, you'll find that this isn't a particularly out-of-line assessment, based on the voting in the "History of Hockey" project currently underway.

I come closer to agreeing with you, and disagree with the apparent consensus viewpoint- but we're the ones out-of-step on this. [Doesn't mean we're wrong, though.]

It's just incredible how the face-to-face comparison between USSR/Russia and Canada doesn't seem to matter at all to many people. It's as if all the Summit and Super series never happened.

Products of our experiences... products of our experiences. I accept this state of affairs as the natural consequence of posting on an English-language board, amongst a predominently North American audience. We can be incredulous- rail against it... but it ain't gonna change for me OR you.

 

[Joe Pelletier]

Sober Second Thoughts

- Now that I have released my 100 Greatest Hockey Players of All Time, I sort of cringe when I look at 96-100. Only because I think there are 15-20 guys who could have had those 5 spots, and now all I see are who I left out.

- I'm probably guilty of forcing two goalies in that bracket, trying to up my goalie count. I only had 12 in the top 95. I struggled as to how many goalies to include.

- Everyone has been very respectful in their comments. I fully expect the international crowd to be upset with any such list, even though I pride myself in my research of the international game. Long before I was known as "the hockey history blogger" I was very much an international hockey guy, with two books release (albeit both from Canadian vantage point). I think, if anything, I am guilty of being tough on the international candidates this time around because I have been criticized for trying to include too many non-NHLers in the past.

- One name I regret not including is that of Igor Larionov.

Joe

 

[overpass]

Great list for the most part but I'll take this opportunity to stick up for a guy that I think made a statement last year that should put up with these guys easily. Martin St. Louis. He has the advantage over Cournoyer (picking on him because he's the last forward there) in every way but Cups. 2 scoring titles to 0, 1 Hart/Pearson to 0, better all-star finishes, more points, 5 top-6 finishes (three top 2!!!) to two top 8s, I mean that's not even close. To me there's no way any amount of Cups makes up this kind of individual excellence. Especially since this is a guy with a great Cup run and absolutely fantastic playoff stats.

Honestly there are a handful of guys I'd take him over on there. What has Robitaille done that this guy hasn't other than rack up a big career point total? I'd take St. Louis as a player over him without hesitation and I think he's dominated enough to make up for the lack of compiling.

Seeing Datsyuk near the end also made me think of St. Louis, he's a guy that never used to show up on these lists. I think these two have earned their way into this elite group the last couple of years.

When considering St Louis and his place in history it matters that he spent most of his career in a weak conference and a terrible division. This season's interconference records should cast a shadow over the high point totals from some of the Eastern stars last year. In retrospect there's no way St Louis had as good a season as Patrick Kane, for example.

He also spent a lot of time on skilled top lines that didn't play any defence. Outside of his excellent 2003-04 season he's been a minus player for his career despite playing with all-star linemates. There's a reason Team Canada passed over him in his prime - they wanted all-around players. Cournoyer played a big role for Canada in 1972 as the top RW.

 

[Rexor]

I'm sorry but this list has Canadiana written all over it. The competition between Canada and European countries has been very tight over the last 40 years or so, yet the top 20 is made solely of Canadians (with the exception of Hašek who is 20th, 10 spots below Roy)? I think the hfboard consensus is that Jágr is better than Sakic, Yzerman or Messier, and he certainly is not worse than Lafleur by 18 spots. One could also question Dionne over Ovechkin, Esposito 11 spots over Kharlamov and so on.

 

[kmad]

I'm sorry but this list has Canadiana written all over it. The competition between Canada and European countries has been very tight over the last 40 years or so, yet the top 20 is made solely of Canadians (with the exception of Hašek who is 20th, 10 spots below Roy)? I think the hfboard consensus is that Jágr is better than Sakic, Yzerman or Messier, and he certainly is not worse than Lafleur by 18 spots. One could also question Dionne over Ovechkin, Esposito 11 spots over Kharlamov and so on.

International tournaments between Canadian junior teams or Canadian teams thrown together with two weeks to mesh, vs. Czechoslovak, Swedish and Russian teams that train together for decades...

I don't give much credit to international tournaments pre-1989.

 

[revolverjgw]

When considering St Louis and his place in history it matters that he spent most of his career in a weak conference and a terrible division. This season's interconference records should cast a shadow over the high point totals from some of the Eastern stars last year. In retrospect there's no way St Louis had as good a season as Patrick Kane, for example.

He also spent a lot of time on skilled top lines that didn't play any defence. Outside of his excellent 2003-04 season he's been a minus player for his career despite playing with all-star linemates. There's a reason Team Canada passed over him in his prime - they wanted all-around players. Cournoyer played a big role for Canada in 1972 as the top RW.

Patrick Kane? Is that really the guy you want to compare him to? He's more one-dimensional and is significantly less productive than St. Louis against both the east and the west (St. Louis has absolutely murdered the west over the last decade, he's got a better PPG against them than against the east, and 130ish games is not a small sample size. So much for not being able to dominate outside his division). St. Louis beats Kane in every way, against every opponent. Every statistical measure shows this, and so does the eye test.

St. Louis is a very good all-around player for an elite scorer, this is the first time I've ever seen someone criticize him for this. Plus minus is useless so I'm not even going to go there. The Lightning have traditionally been a mess defensively and weak in net, even when they had their 100 point season a few years ago they were 22nd in goals against. And it's not his fault.

 

[Sentinel]

International tournaments between Canadian junior teams or Canadian teams thrown together with two weeks to mesh, vs. Czechoslovak, Swedish and Russian teams that train together for decades...

I don't give much credit to international tournaments pre-1989.

That's your problem. 1972 and 1981 Soviet teams barely played together at all prior to their tournaments, it's a myth.

I agree with Rexor on everything else. 19 out of 20 Top players being Canadian is pretty bias. There is no way in hell Hasek is ten spots below Roy and Jagr is below Sakic. Larionov should be on this list, as well as many other Euros.