Joe Pelletier's Top 100 Hockey Players of All-Time
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TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
So Joe no longer has Mark Messier over Jean Beliveau like he did when he did his top 36(?) players of all time a few years ago? Heh.
This one would be a lot closer to the standard this board would have.
MacInnis that far below Stevens/Pronger is what my "eye test" would tell me too, only arguments on this board have convinced me to put MacInnis at their level.
This one would be a lot closer to the standard this board would have.
MacInnis that far below Stevens/Pronger is what my "eye test" would tell me too, only arguments on this board have convinced me to put MacInnis at their level.
Red Kelly...superstar at 2 positions?
Very capable center but never does the term superstar come up for his time at center and for good reason.
Very capable center but never does the term superstar come up for his time at center and for good reason.
Killion
Registered User
- Feb 19, 2010
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... ya thats definitely over the top... he's also got King Clancy
rated highly, well above a large number of far superior players.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I've had a few back and forth emails with Joe, and he definitely values and respects what we do here in this section and the ATD. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see him emulate our lists somewhat, because he is aware of all that goes into them.
mrhockey193195
Registered User
Love Joe and love his website, but (naturally) his list pales in comparison to the one that you guys put together. Hard to compete with that amount of time, effort, and research.
The few things that jumped out to me were:
1) Bossy over Trottier
2) Lafleur making the top ten, over Harvey/Bourque/Morenz
3) Yzerman over Messier
4) Henri Richard in the top 30
5) Salming ahead of Chelios
There are plenty more, but those caught my eye immediately.
Overall, a solid list that is infinitely better than anything I could have ever put together without reading everyone's arguments and leeching off of everyone's research on the HOH threads.
EDIT: Just realized that Bossy is one spot over Trottier in the HOH top 100. So maybe I'm the one who's a bit outlandish in thinking otherwise.
The few things that jumped out to me were:
1) Bossy over Trottier
2) Lafleur making the top ten, over Harvey/Bourque/Morenz
3) Yzerman over Messier
4) Henri Richard in the top 30
5) Salming ahead of Chelios
There are plenty more, but those caught my eye immediately.
Overall, a solid list that is infinitely better than anything I could have ever put together without reading everyone's arguments and leeching off of everyone's research on the HOH threads.
EDIT: Just realized that Bossy is one spot over Trottier in the HOH top 100. So maybe I'm the one who's a bit outlandish in thinking otherwise.
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I'm confused, are you attempting to say the ranking of Phil Esposito by a guy who I just finished saying emulates us should be significant to me?
LeBlondeDemon10
Registered User
Finally, a list that has The Flower in the top 10, his rightful place. And I say that with complete, untainted objectivity.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
... with Sakic seven slots behind.First off - hello. I do lurk here though I have rarely participated. I'm not sure why, as this forum truly is one of the best online homes of hockey history. I can only dream of having such a community commenting at GreatestHockeyLegends.com.
Secondly, thank you for reading my list. I know there will be mostly nothing but disagreements and that is great. By all means dissect away. I am not here to argue or defend any selection.
As seventieslord said, I really do have the highest respect for the work done here. So high that I refused to look at the ATD/HOH rankings and other threads until after I was mostly satisfied with my own list. I figured my list would be justified if it compared reasonably to your work. You guys do an amazing job here and I hope to see you guys do something more with it.
This project started 6 months ago but really has been kicking around my head for 40 years. With a little luck, I'll be fine tuning it for another 40, but that might be a stretch! I certainly hope to add a few names in the future.
Just a bit of background on my process. I've been trying to figure out some magic formula for years now, but I ultimately came to the conclusion I already knew - that was simply impossible. So I focussed on my definition of the word greatest in this setting. I'm fairly happy with it, especially since I accepted that it is okay to be persuaded by personal bias and perspectives.
From there I made a number of lists which I felt compared each player fairly in their own generation, position, country etc etc. Once I had those lists completed, the top 100 actually fell together quite nicely. I forced myself to keep true to my original lists when merging it all into the master list. Player B had to rank by Player A positionally and Player A generationally etc etc. I found the top 100 could be pretty easily broken into groups of 10. That's when I allowed personal preference to determine each group of 10.
My list spilled over to over 150. I actually tried expanding the project to a Top 250, but it just became too much. It was almost dumb to go that high. Personal opinion is fine for 100 or less, but there's no real point to naming the 238th best player ever.
I only hope this list helps improve my reputation in hockey history circles while stirring conversation and perhaps introducing new legends, heroes and stories to fans of the great game of hockey.
Secondly, thank you for reading my list. I know there will be mostly nothing but disagreements and that is great. By all means dissect away. I am not here to argue or defend any selection.
As seventieslord said, I really do have the highest respect for the work done here. So high that I refused to look at the ATD/HOH rankings and other threads until after I was mostly satisfied with my own list. I figured my list would be justified if it compared reasonably to your work. You guys do an amazing job here and I hope to see you guys do something more with it.
This project started 6 months ago but really has been kicking around my head for 40 years. With a little luck, I'll be fine tuning it for another 40, but that might be a stretch! I certainly hope to add a few names in the future.
Just a bit of background on my process. I've been trying to figure out some magic formula for years now, but I ultimately came to the conclusion I already knew - that was simply impossible. So I focussed on my definition of the word greatest in this setting. I'm fairly happy with it, especially since I accepted that it is okay to be persuaded by personal bias and perspectives.
From there I made a number of lists which I felt compared each player fairly in their own generation, position, country etc etc. Once I had those lists completed, the top 100 actually fell together quite nicely. I forced myself to keep true to my original lists when merging it all into the master list. Player B had to rank by Player A positionally and Player A generationally etc etc. I found the top 100 could be pretty easily broken into groups of 10. That's when I allowed personal preference to determine each group of 10.
My list spilled over to over 150. I actually tried expanding the project to a Top 250, but it just became too much. It was almost dumb to go that high. Personal opinion is fine for 100 or less, but there's no real point to naming the 238th best player ever.
I only hope this list helps improve my reputation in hockey history circles while stirring conversation and perhaps introducing new legends, heroes and stories to fans of the great game of hockey.
Killion
Registered User
- Feb 19, 2010
- 36,763
- 3,215
Well thanks for stopping by Joe... and thank you for the many hours of enjoyment & edification
Ive had on & through your site. Wonderful biographies, background information etc. Fabulous job.
Cheers.
Tremendous job joe by someone who knows his stuff.Glad you had Guy Lafleur high because people who saw him play also have him high.The Messier Yzerman Trottier Esposito clark arguments will go on forever.Some controversy but like this site it causes dialog sometimes intense.My problem are Lidstrom Bourque Potvin who is really better.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Well thanks for stopping by Joe... and thank you for the many hours of enjoyment & edification
Ive had on & through your site. Wonderful biographies, background information etc. Fabulous job.
Cheers.
Yeah, I'd like to echo these thoughts. As someone who has only been really studying the history of the game for a few years, the work that Joe has done has provided me with a great foundation for my new found knowledge to be built upon.
Bear of Bad News
Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
- Sep 27, 2005
- 13,511
- 26,963
VMBM
And it didn't even bring me down
One European guy I'd like to see in a top 100 is Anatoli Firsov. Boris Mikhailov is another one who should be at least somewhere around 100.
He has Kharlamov well above Makarov, so I guess some experts still believe in Kharlamov's superiority; e.g. in the recent poll on HOH Makarov was clearly favoured, although eventually it got slightly tighter. Personally, I'm still not sure, but maybe leaning slightly towards Makarov...
He has Kharlamov well above Makarov, so I guess some experts still believe in Kharlamov's superiority; e.g. in the recent poll on HOH Makarov was clearly favoured, although eventually it got slightly tighter. Personally, I'm still not sure, but maybe leaning slightly towards Makarov...
ChiTownPhilly
Not Too Soft
Pretty much sums up my feelings...
I wouldn't go that far-- but we overrate Bobby Clarke around these parts (but in fairness, at least we don't overrate him as much as we used to).
... and we underrate Pronger
Judging by the turns of conversation here, I'd say Big Joe has a point in describing Esposito this way... but "outside the gate," the most underrated superstar from the O-6 era to the present day is Lidström.
BraveCanadian
Registered User
- Jun 30, 2010
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- 3,573
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Well thanks for stopping by Joe... and thank you for the many hours of enjoyment & edification
Ive had on & through your site. Wonderful biographies, background information etc. Fabulous job.
Cheers.
I'll 2nd that and all lists do have their own metrics and quirks, that's what makes discussions like this fun and interesting.
Agreement would be very boring indeed.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
I'm sure Joe knows that his site is one of our most used sources for player information and skillsets.
Even if we don't always agree about player evaluation.
Keep up the good work
Even if we don't always agree about player evaluation.
Keep up the good work
Killion
Registered User
- Feb 19, 2010
- 36,763
- 3,215
Indeed. I very much enjoy his inclusion of the anecdotal, the off-beat & unique in his write-ups of players, Coaches etc.... like take the case of Mike "Shaky" Walton. Nickname came from his father or Grandfather who had played in the UK, used to "shake" his head on the deke to fake guys out though its a common enough trick... or that Mike there had had a bizarre accident & fallen through a pane glass window at a hotel in St.Louis while with Boston, lost 5 pints of blood, nearly a goner & required over 200 stitches from his face to his knees to repair the damage.... That Punch Imlach hated Mike with a passion as he had long sideburns, like Muttonchops, Hippy Crap; shave or you dont play. Married a Smythe further earning Imlachs enmity, that Walton was an insider & untouchable.... on & on. Great reads.
revolverjgw
Registered User
Great list for the most part but I'll take this opportunity to stick up for a guy that I think made a statement last year that should put up with these guys easily. Martin St. Louis. He has the advantage over Cournoyer (picking on him because he's the last forward there) in every way but Cups. 2 scoring titles to 0, 1 Hart/Pearson to 0, better all-star finishes, more points, 5 top-6 finishes (three top 2!!!) to two top 8s, I mean that's not even close. To me there's no way any amount of Cups makes up this kind of individual excellence. Especially since this is a guy with a great Cup run and absolutely fantastic playoff stats.
Honestly there are a handful of guys I'd take him over on there. What has Robitaille done that this guy hasn't other than rack up a big career point total? I'd take St. Louis as a player over him without hesitation and I think he's dominated enough to make up for the lack of compiling.
Seeing Datsyuk near the end also made me think of St. Louis, he's a guy that never used to show up on these lists. I think these two have earned their way into this elite group the last couple of years.
Honestly there are a handful of guys I'd take him over on there. What has Robitaille done that this guy hasn't other than rack up a big career point total? I'd take St. Louis as a player over him without hesitation and I think he's dominated enough to make up for the lack of compiling.
Seeing Datsyuk near the end also made me think of St. Louis, he's a guy that never used to show up on these lists. I think these two have earned their way into this elite group the last couple of years.
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seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Yeah, us ATD folks audited Cournoyer a long time ago and we're on board with you on that one... he's historically overrated. St. Louis is better in every imaginable way. Fish in a barrel.
