Joe Pelletier's Top 100 Hockey Players of All-Time

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by kmad, Nov 18, 2013.

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  1. kmad

    kmad riot survivor

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    http://www.greatesthockeylegends.com/2013/11/top-100-greatest-hockey-players-of-all.html

    Overall the list is fairly close to the aggregate of what this forum comes up with.

    Some notable placements:

    Marcel Dionne ahead of Bobby Clarke

    Al MacInnis about 30 spots below Stevens/Pronger

    Ron Francis pretty high

    Frank Nighbor ridiculously low; same with Jagr (26th)

    Active players on the list: Jagr (26th), Crosby (29th), Brodeur (42nd), Selanne (60th), Pronger (65th), Datsyuk (92nd)
     
  2. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    So Joe no longer has Mark Messier over Jean Beliveau like he did when he did his top 36(?) players of all time a few years ago? Heh.

    This one would be a lot closer to the standard this board would have.

    MacInnis that far below Stevens/Pronger is what my "eye test" would tell me too, only arguments on this board have convinced me to put MacInnis at their level.
     
  3. Hardyvan123

    Hardyvan123 [email protected]

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    Red Kelly...superstar at 2 positions?

    Very capable center but never does the term superstar come up for his time at center and for good reason.
     
  4. Killion

    Killion Registered User

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    ... ya thats definitely over the top... he's also got King Clancy
    rated highly, well above a large number of far superior players.
     
  5. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    I've had a few back and forth emails with Joe, and he definitely values and respects what we do here in this section and the ATD. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see him emulate our lists somewhat, because he is aware of all that goes into them.
     
  6. mrhockey193195

    mrhockey193195 Registered User

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    Love Joe and love his website, but (naturally) his list pales in comparison to the one that you guys put together. Hard to compete with that amount of time, effort, and research.

    The few things that jumped out to me were:
    1) Bossy over Trottier
    2) Lafleur making the top ten, over Harvey/Bourque/Morenz
    3) Yzerman over Messier
    4) Henri Richard in the top 30
    5) Salming ahead of Chelios

    There are plenty more, but those caught my eye immediately.

    Overall, a solid list that is infinitely better than anything I could have ever put together without reading everyone's arguments and leeching off of everyone's research on the HOH threads.

    EDIT: Just realized that Bossy is one spot over Trottier in the HOH top 100. So maybe I'm the one who's a bit outlandish in thinking otherwise.
     
  7. Dennis Bonvie

    Dennis Bonvie Registered User

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    Who is that most underrated superstar?
     
  8. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    I'm confused, are you attempting to say the ranking of Phil Esposito by a guy who I just finished saying emulates us should be significant to me?
     
  9. LeBlondeDemon10

    LeBlondeDemon10 BlindLemon Haystacks

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    Finally, a list that has The Flower in the top 10, his rightful place. And I say that with complete, untainted objectivity.
     
  10. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    Yzerman ahead of Messier and Trottier...:amazed: ... with Sakic seven slots behind.
     
  11. Joe Pelletier

    Joe Pelletier Registered User

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    First off - hello. I do lurk here though I have rarely participated. I'm not sure why, as this forum truly is one of the best online homes of hockey history. I can only dream of having such a community commenting at GreatestHockeyLegends.com.

    Secondly, thank you for reading my list. I know there will be mostly nothing but disagreements and that is great. By all means dissect away. I am not here to argue or defend any selection.

    As seventieslord said, I really do have the highest respect for the work done here. So high that I refused to look at the ATD/HOH rankings and other threads until after I was mostly satisfied with my own list. I figured my list would be justified if it compared reasonably to your work. You guys do an amazing job here and I hope to see you guys do something more with it.

    This project started 6 months ago but really has been kicking around my head for 40 years. With a little luck, I'll be fine tuning it for another 40, but that might be a stretch! I certainly hope to add a few names in the future.

    Just a bit of background on my process. I've been trying to figure out some magic formula for years now, but I ultimately came to the conclusion I already knew - that was simply impossible. So I focussed on my definition of the word greatest in this setting. I'm fairly happy with it, especially since I accepted that it is okay to be persuaded by personal bias and perspectives.

    From there I made a number of lists which I felt compared each player fairly in their own generation, position, country etc etc. Once I had those lists completed, the top 100 actually fell together quite nicely. I forced myself to keep true to my original lists when merging it all into the master list. Player B had to rank by Player A positionally and Player A generationally etc etc. I found the top 100 could be pretty easily broken into groups of 10. That's when I allowed personal preference to determine each group of 10.

    My list spilled over to over 150. I actually tried expanding the project to a Top 250, but it just became too much. It was almost dumb to go that high. Personal opinion is fine for 100 or less, but there's no real point to naming the 238th best player ever.

    I only hope this list helps improve my reputation in hockey history circles while stirring conversation and perhaps introducing new legends, heroes and stories to fans of the great game of hockey.
     
  12. Killion

    Killion Registered User

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    Well thanks for stopping by Joe... and thank you for the many hours of enjoyment & edification
    Ive had on & through your site. Wonderful biographies, background information etc. Fabulous job.

    Cheers. ;)
     
  13. thom

    thom Registered User

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    Tremendous job joe by someone who knows his stuff.Glad you had Guy Lafleur high because people who saw him play also have him high.The Messier Yzerman Trottier Esposito clark arguments will go on forever.Some controversy but like this site it causes dialog sometimes intense.My problem are Lidstrom Bourque Potvin who is really better.
     
  14. Mike Farkas

    Mike Farkas Grace Personified

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    Yeah, I'd like to echo these thoughts. As someone who has only been really studying the history of the game for a few years, the work that Joe has done has provided me with a great foundation for my new found knowledge to be built upon.
     
  15. Bear of Bad News

    Bear of Bad News HFBoards Escape Goat

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    Joe, you have to post more. Or at least post more great hike photos! ;)
     
  16. VMBM

    VMBM Crawfish Fiesta

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    One European guy I'd like to see in a top 100 is Anatoli Firsov. Boris Mikhailov is another one who should be at least somewhere around 100.

    He has Kharlamov well above Makarov, so I guess some experts still believe in Kharlamov's superiority; e.g. in the recent poll on HOH Makarov was clearly favoured, although eventually it got slightly tighter. Personally, I'm still not sure, but maybe leaning slightly towards Makarov...
     
  17. ChiTownPhilly

    ChiTownPhilly Not Too Soft

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    Pretty much sums up my feelings...
    I wouldn't go that far-- but we overrate Bobby Clarke around these parts (but in fairness, at least we don't overrate him as much as we used to).
    ... and we underrate Pronger
    Judging by the turns of conversation here, I'd say Big Joe has a point in describing Esposito this way... but "outside the gate," the most underrated superstar from the O-6 era to the present day is Lidström.
     
  18. BraveCanadian

    BraveCanadian Registered User

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    Great to see you here. I enjoy reading your player bios.
     
  19. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Thank You

    Thank you for the list and all the other contributions over the years.
     
  20. gudzilla

    gudzilla Registered User

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    a few of the links doesn't work. i couldnt read up on eddie shore and some other

    was so happy when i lurked this in the morning, a lot of the stories about the persons are very overwhelming... i love good stories
     
  21. Hardyvan123

    Hardyvan123 [email protected]

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    I'll 2nd that and all lists do have their own metrics and quirks, that's what makes discussions like this fun and interesting.

    Agreement would be very boring indeed.
     
  22. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    I'm sure Joe knows that his site is one of our most used sources for player information and skillsets.

    Even if we don't always agree about player evaluation.

    Keep up the good work
     
  23. Killion

    Killion Registered User

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    Indeed. I very much enjoy his inclusion of the anecdotal, the off-beat & unique in his write-ups of players, Coaches etc.... like take the case of Mike "Shaky" Walton. Nickname came from his father or Grandfather who had played in the UK, used to "shake" his head on the deke to fake guys out though its a common enough trick... or that Mike there had had a bizarre accident & fallen through a pane glass window at a hotel in St.Louis while with Boston, lost 5 pints of blood, nearly a goner & required over 200 stitches from his face to his knees to repair the damage.... That Punch Imlach hated Mike with a passion as he had long sideburns, like Muttonchops, Hippy Crap; shave or you dont play. Married a Smythe further earning Imlachs enmity, that Walton was an insider & untouchable.... on & on. Great reads. :)
     
  24. revolverjgw

    revolverjgw Registered User

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    Great list for the most part but I'll take this opportunity to stick up for a guy that I think made a statement last year that should put up with these guys easily. Martin St. Louis. He has the advantage over Cournoyer (picking on him because he's the last forward there) in every way but Cups. 2 scoring titles to 0, 1 Hart/Pearson to 0, better all-star finishes, more points, 5 top-6 finishes (three top 2!!!) to two top 8s, I mean that's not even close. To me there's no way any amount of Cups makes up this kind of individual excellence. Especially since this is a guy with a great Cup run and absolutely fantastic playoff stats.

    Honestly there are a handful of guys I'd take him over on there. What has Robitaille done that this guy hasn't other than rack up a big career point total? I'd take St. Louis as a player over him without hesitation and I think he's dominated enough to make up for the lack of compiling.

    Seeing Datsyuk near the end also made me think of St. Louis, he's a guy that never used to show up on these lists. I think these two have earned their way into this elite group the last couple of years.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  25. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Yeah, us ATD folks audited Cournoyer a long time ago and we're on board with you on that one... he's historically overrated. St. Louis is better in every imaginable way. Fish in a barrel.
     

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