WGR: Joe DiBiase - Sabres Still Paying for the Sins of Tim Murray

[joshjull]

You are missing my point. The point is that LaFontaine hired Murray to work under him. As I remember, and I will admit I may not be remembering accurately, LaFontaine intended to be actively involved with the team. Less than two months into Murray's tenure LaFontaine is suddenly fired and no one replaces him. Presumably Murray's job description changed at that time since I think one can reasonably conclude that Murray had to take over at least some of what LaFontaine planned to do himself.

The point is that Murray was brought in to do X under LaFontaine and was suddenly asked to do X and Y. Why LaFontaine was not replaced, either immediately, or later one when Murray's inability to handle certain tasks should have been clear, at least on the inside, is a question worth asking. Did Murray ask the Pegulas not to replace LaFontaine thinking that he could take on the additional tasks required? Or did the Pegulas opt not to replace LaFontaine for whatever reason?

A lot of the issues you raise as things that Murray was bad at are matters that a President of Hockey Operations, especially a hands on one, would have some input into, at least. So was Murray hired to do a job he was, in hindsight, largely unqualified for or was he hired to do a job he was largely qualified for that quickly turned into one he was not qualified for? If the latter is the case, I do not think it excuses Murray's failure in the larger role, but it points to Murray's failings being part of a much larger systemic, organizational failure.

I’m not missing your point since I addressed it in the post after the one you quoted. The one I addressed directly to you. I said the issues under Murray ultimately fall in the lap of the Pegulas.

But I disagree with what comes across to me as excuse making for basic incompetence. Murray wasn’t some newbie to the NHL with zero managerial experience. His last job before us was AGM for the Sens running their farm team with his uncle as the GM.

Even if his role expanded with the firing of Patty L. That still doesn't excuse taking over 2 years from that firing to come up with an effective or even coherent discipline policy. Or for having no idea what was going on in his locker room or being shocked the players hated Disco. It can explain the farm system and development being neglected to a point. But even there he was actually an AGM running a farm team. It never dawned on him to replicate that set up here?

Any level of managerial or even coaching experience would have taught the importance of an effective discipline policy as well as communication with players. This is like ground level bare minimum competence he didn’t have. Which is amazing considering he was the AGM in charge of an AHL team for years under the watchful eye of a pretty good GM in his uncle.

All that without getting into some of the “characters” he collected for this team. Players who would have better served an older vet teams with established leadership. Instead of being the leadership like the became here by default.

One oddity of the small amount of time Patty L. And Murray spent together was the reported difference in direction each wanted. Supposedly Patty wanted to re-sign Miller and wasn't in favor of tanking. We all know Murray was in quite the opposite frame of mind and attacked the tank with gusto. Would have been very interesting to see how that dynamic would have played out if Patty stuck around.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Going rate for higher-thought-of backups at the time was a late first. It's what was the principle in the Jones deal, same with Andersen. He paid market rate and brought in the guy he thought he knew, who turned out to need help and support away from the rink that Murray didn't identify and provide. It's the same sort of failing with Kane, with O'Reilly, and even given his constant brittleness, Bogosian.

Come on Chain. At the time this move was pilloried as a gross overpayment. Talbot moved the same offseason right? A late first for Lehner and a cap dump was well beyond market price.

 

[Chainshot]

Come on Chain. At the time this move was pilloried as a gross overpayment. Talbot moved the same offseason right? A late first for Lehner and a cap dump was well beyond market price.

You do know that I was here then, that my take on the trade is part of the archive and that I didn't like the deal right? I would have much preferred him dealing 31OA for goaltending help - posted as much - and yet Jones was highly regarded and went for a first while Talbot went for a collection of picks including a 2nd. Would that have worked out in Buffalo's favor? Possibly - though even Lehner's save percentage was higher in his first two seasons. Both he and Talbot ultimately failed though Lehner is now known to have had non-hockey factors working against him --- which I've pointed out is a failing of Murray to identify, assess and assist with that typified his acquisition of individuals with flaws that smashed the room and left wicked inconsistency on it. I wanted to see what Irbe could do with Lehner since he'd done such solid work with Neuvirth and Lindback (even if Enroth was being abused as a small sieve).

Additional foolishness was that both Chiarelli and Murray were bidding on the same guy, that Edmonton was offering up 33OA that they later used in the terrible Griffin Reinhart deal and one idiot outbid the other with authority... and yet neither really wound up with value. Niemi went for a 7th that summer and fell on his face. Jones went for Kuraly and a 1st. It was very much market rate.

I'm on record hating that they gave up an extra piece in various trades - Compher in particular still cuts to the quick. Feel free to step off from trying to paint me as some sort of Murray apologist. I have leveled criticism at each of the last three GM's in my time here - more so even on Regier than either of the two more recent candidates - and Murray plenty, day of deals and all. And if you have a personal beef with me, feel free to take it up in PM.

 

[member 311261]

You do know that I was here then, that my take on the trade is part of the archive and that I didn't like the deal right? I would have much preferred him dealing 31OA for goaltending help - posted as much - and yet Jones was highly regarded and went for a first while Talbot went for a collection of picks including a 2nd. Would that have worked out in Buffalo's favor? Possibly - though even Lehner's save percentage was higher in his first two seasons. Both he and Talbot ultimately failed though Lehner is now known to have had non-hockey factors working against him --- which I've pointed out is a failing of Murray to identify, assess and assist with that typified his acquisition of individuals with flaws that smashed the room and left wicked inconsistency on it. I wanted to see what Irbe could do with Lehner since he'd done such solid work with Neuvirth and Lindback (even if Enroth was being abused as a small sieve).

Additional foolishness was that both Chiarelli and Murray were bidding on the same guy, that Edmonton was offering up 33OA that they later used in the terrible Griffin Reinhart deal and one idiot outbid the other with authority... and yet neither really wound up with value. Niemi went for a 7th that summer and fell on his face. Jones went for Kuraly and a 1st. It was very much market rate.

I'm on record hating that they gave up an extra piece in various trades - Compher in particular still cuts to the quick. Feel free to step off from trying to paint me as some sort of Murray apologist. I have leveled criticism at each of the last three GM's in my time here - more so even on Regier than either of the two more recent candidates - and Murray plenty, day of deals and all. And if you have a personal beef with me, feel free to take it up in PM.

There were good cheap goalies in available free agency... We couldn't find a bad goalie even when we tried during the tank! That's why the Lehner deal was so all-time bad.

 

[CatsforReinhart]

There were good cheap goalies in available free agency... We couldn't find a bad goalie even when we tried during the tank! That's why the Lehner deal was so all-time bad.

I agree. Just make the damn pick. Boeser, White and a falling Konecny were on the board still.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

There were good cheap goalies in available free agency... We couldn't find a bad goalie even when we tried during the tank! That's why the Lehner deal was so all-time bad.

I agree. Just make the damn pick. Boeser, White and a falling Konecny were on the board still.

Can you imagine not feeling the need to accelerate the re-build, not trading those picks at all (no Lehner or O'Reilly trades), and taking White/Boeser at #21, and Aho at #31. It just blows my mind thinking about what was available in that draft, and what could have been...and with Zadorov and Compher still on the roster.

 

[Chainshot]

There were good cheap goalies in available free agency... We couldn't find a bad goalie even when we tried during the tank! That's why the Lehner deal was so all-time bad.

Ramo, Niemi, Neuvirth? You have a broad interpretation of “good”.