WGR: Joe DiBiase - Sabres Still Paying for the Sins of Tim Murray

[member 311261]

If it weren't for some of the clowns EDM has had, Murray would go down as one of the worst GM's in NHL history. It's absolutely ridiculous that he has his backers here.

 

[Buff15Sabres]

I think Murray's worst trades were his mid-value trades. He still overpaid in his high value trades (Lehner, Kane, RoR), but the mid value ones really killed us.

2x2nd rd picks +McNabb for Fasching + Deslauries
3rd rd pick to talk to Vesey
3rd rd pick to hire Byslma
Pysyk for 1 year of injury plagued Kulikov

That's a whole lot of assets for a whole lot of nothing. Probably even negative value depending on your view of Byslma.

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

Which only took botterill a year to completely undo.

You forgot to include murray press conferences/interviews in the what Murray did right category

Murrays attempt to be edgy and cool "Buffalo takes Jack Eichel". Notice how he had to be the one to announce it. Most GMs let an underling announce the picks. Kevin Devine for Darcy. Jankowski did this year. But Murray had to be that edgy GM. His fans loved it. They joked that next year Murray was going to come on stage and point at the player he wanted to pick. But all the bluntbess and beer drinking to pander more to his lovers aside he was a horrible GM and a horrible person. Did everything he could to cry about losing out on McDavid. I couldn't believe my ears when this absolute clown started disrespecting our current captain and at the time supposed savior.

Oh and worst of all, all the leaks. Sorry, the only people who benefit from a GM whose front office leaked more then a sieve are posters on sites like this and other GMs. Way too much info was coming out and it made no strategic sense for him to disclose it all. Murray was a joke and the only trade he made that wasn't f***ing awful was the RoR which still cost us numerous top assets. Darcy carefully cultivated insane draft capital and Tiny Tim blew through that like a teenager with his parents credit card. Botts made his fare share of blunders but he is far superior to Murray everywhere except first coaching hires. There I can be honest and admit both were terrible there.

The irony was the Murray supporters carrying torches over taking Matt Hunwicks contract in the Sheary trade, even though it reduced the cost of our 4th leading scorer at forward to a measly 4th round pick. Unsurprisingly most of the people who were so vocal about their hatred over Hunwick didn't say a PEEP about Legwand. When Botts gives up twice as much as any other team was offering for a player AND take a terrible contract off his Uncle's hands for nothing then I will criticize him taking on a contract.

 

[Gabrielor]

Murrays attempt to be edgy and cool "Buffalo takes Jack Eichel". Notice how he had to be the one to announce it. Most GMs let an underling announce the picks. Kevin Devine for Darcy. Jankowski did this year. But Murray had to be that edgy GM. His fans loved it. They joked that next year Murray was going to come on stage and point at the player he wanted to pick. But all the bluntbess and beer drinking to pander more to his lovers aside he was a horrible GM and a horrible person. Did everything he could to cry about losing out on McDavid. I couldn't believe my ears when this absolute clown started disrespecting our current captain and at the time supposed savior.

This all is just attitude-preference nonsense. Next.

Oh and worst of all, all the leaks. Sorry, the only people who benefit from a GM whose front office leaked more then a sieve are posters on sites like this and other GMs. Way too much info was coming out and it made no strategic sense for him to disclose it all.

Yeah, I'm glad that seems to be gone.

Murray was a joke and the only trade he made that wasn't ****ing awful was the RoR which still cost us numerous top assets. Darcy carefully cultivated insane draft capital and Tiny Tim blew through that like a teenager with his parents credit card.

As pointed out elsewhere, he also had success with tear-down trades. It was team-building trades that weren't OReilly where he failed.

Botts made his fare share of blunders but he is far superior to Murray everywhere except first coaching hires. There I can be honest and admit both were terrible there.

Yup. One hired an asshole no one liked. The other hired an idiot.

The irony was the Murray supporters carrying torches over taking Matt Hunwicks contract in the Sheary trade, even though it reduced the cost of our 4th leading scorer at forward to a measly 4th round pick. Unsurprisingly most of the people who were so vocal about their hatred over Hunwick didn't say a PEEP about Legwand. When Botts gives up twice as much as any other team was offering for a player AND take a terrible contract off his Uncle's hands for nothing then I will criticize him taking on a contract.

Legwand had 1 year at 3 or 3.5 mil left, and fit as a 4th line vet center. Hunwick fit no where, because we already had a crappy Lefty bottom pair guy (Scandella). So, I'll just chalk this up to your usual ramblings.



Btw, I'm not a Murray supporter, I've acknowledged that nearly everything he did was wrong. There's a collection of folks, however, you'll forever refuse to acknowledge the few things he did right, even while the current guy is f***ing off in that area.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

The leaks were so bad that other GMs stopped returning TM's phone calls at his last TDL. That's partially the reason why two pending UFAs that were maybe worth a 4th or 5th never got moved at all.

 

[Chainshot]

The leaks were so bad that other GMs stopped returning TM's phone calls at his last TDL. That's partially the reason why two pending UFAs that were maybe worth a 4th or 5th never got moved at all.

Links?

 

[joshjull]

No offense, @Sean M , but did this really deserve a bump? The amount of agonizing on this board about past mistakes and seasons of disappointment is depressing. Tim is long gone, never to return.

Please don't feed the beast.

Another thread was derailed with Murray talk so the mods correctly recommended it go in here

 

[joshjull]

I had similar thoughts on the O'Reilly deal (either Compher or the 2nd too much) and the Jet deal had one piece too much in it as well. He spent freely and almost universally, his acquisitions fell short in Buffalo over the long haul and that may be more on his inability to deal with their off-ice stuff than the on-ice stuff. Too much archaic thinking about how they conducted themselves off the ice and not enough done around too many. That's by far the biggest failing toward the personnel he spent all of that one - failure to get many of them mentally well.

We can also look back and wonder if Babs would have had them rowing in the same direction. Who knows, maybe he notices Lehner's issues or gets Kane on a straighter path or O'Reilly onto a happier place. We'll never know.

You hit the nail on the head with the bolded. It was one of a few issues he had as GM because he didn’t know how to run the overall operation of a team.

Back to the bolded — Murray had collected a few guys with various issues who needed to be managed or helped depending on the player. On a young team that group of players became part of the leadership group by default. The end result was a bit of a circus in the locker room. A room that has been frequently described as a mess.

 

[Dingo44]

You hit the nail on the head with the bolded. It was one of a few issues he had as GM because he didn’t know how to run the overall operation of a team.

Back to the bolded — Murray had collected a few guys with various issues who needed to be managed or helped depending on the player. On a young team that group of players became part of the leadership group by default. The end result was a bit of a circus in the locker room. A room that has been frequently described as a mess.

I guess the plan was that guys like Gionta, Legwand, Gorges, and the young leadership of ROR would be enough to make up for any issues with the other guys he brought in. From reports we've heard that didn't work at all, and Blysma was too standoffish and not really talking to his players to do anything about it. A real mess.

 

[joshjull]

I guess the plan was that guys like Gionta, Legwand, Gorges, and the young leadership of ROR would be enough to make up for any issues with the other guys he brought in. From reports we've heard that didn't work at all, and Blysma was too standoffish and not really talking to his players to do anything about it. A real mess.

He was one of the players I was referring to.

 

[Dingo44]

He was one of the players I was referring to.

I think that Murray and Blysma were more Whaley and Ryan and I'm hoping Botts and Krueger are more Beane and McDermott.

Just need a Kyle Williams and Lorenzo Alexander on there. I wonder if Kyle can come sit in the Sabres locker room for a while?

 

[joshjull]

Here’s what Murray did wrong:

Dumb overpayment on trades

Negotiating long term contracts

Building rochester

Building a defense, including a prospect pipeline

Giving a premium asset for a goalie who would get exposed with our current d core


Here’s what Murray did right:

Filling the center position

Add to things done wrong

Not knowing how to set up the structure or rules needed to run a NHL hockey team. This led to various issues but my favorite was near the end of his tenure when he randomly decided to change the punishment for being late to anything. It led to the clown show of Sam sitting an entire game on the bench with crazy speculation on what horrible thing must have done to get embarrassed publicly like that. When all that happened was he was 5mins late to a morning stretch.


Murray was a terrible GM who compounded the damage from the mistakes Regier made at the end of his tenure.

 

[dotcommunism]

You hit the nail on the head with the bolded. It was one of a few issues he had as GM because he didn’t know how to run the overall operation of a team.

Back to the bolded — Murray had collected a few guys with various issues who needed to be managed or helped depending on the player. On a young team that group of players became part of the leadership group by default. The end result was a bit of a circus in the locker room. A room that has been frequently described as a mess.

I don't think it excuses Murray's failure at all, but it should be kept in mind that he wasn't actually hired to do that. When he was hired there was a Team President above him who would, at least in theory, have been responsible for some things along those lines.

 

[Gras]

I think Murray's worst trades were his mid-value trades. He still overpaid in his high value trades (Lehner, Kane, RoR), but the mid value ones really killed us.

2x2nd rd picks +McNabb for Fasching + Deslauries
3rd rd pick to talk to Vesey
3rd rd pick to hire Byslma
Pysyk for 1 year of injury plagued Kulikov

That's a whole lot of assets for a whole lot of nothing. Probably even negative value depending on your view of Byslma.

The Kulikov injury was a fluke though, not much you can do about that.

 

[Chainshot]

The Kulikov injury was a fluke though, not much you can do about that.

The only ray of light in that was the shuffle up to get Asplund that was part of the draft pick shift in that deal.

 

[joshjull]

I don't think it excuses Murray's failure at all, but it should be kept in mind that he wasn't actually hired to do that. When he was hired there was a Team President above him who would, at least in theory, have been responsible for some things along those lines.

The day to day operation of the hockey team is very much within his purview. The rules that govern punishment for example. Something the GM, along with input from the coach, would decide on. Something he didn’t focus much on while various players were being knuckleheads. Then seemingly out of now where with a month left in the season, a couple months after the Kane/NBA All star game debacle and a few years into his tenure. He decides a stern policy was needed. Something to encompass all things. He heard it had worked in other places. Yes he actually said something along those lines. Leading of course to the clown show of Sam sitting on the bench for an entire game for being late for 5mins to a morning stretch. Publicly embarrassing a young star unnecessarily

For him to not grasp from the get go that a young team would need structure and discipline was an enormous failure on his part. Combine that with him not seeing the possible issues from adding some of the players he did and how young many key players were. All of that led directly led to the circus and mess our locker room became.

Add in the other things he didn’t seem to know how to set up: the farm team, development, etc. I feel fairly comfortable saying he was in over his head trying to run the team. I don’t see how he gets a pass on any of that because a Team President was there when he started. At best they could share the blame.

 

[joshjull]

@dotcommunism

I would say the ultimate blame for the problems with Murray as GM fall in Pegulas lap. His impulsive actions led to a string of moves leading to his hiring.

 

[DJN21]

This all is just attitude-preference nonsense. Next.




Yeah, I'm glad that seems to be gone.



As pointed out elsewhere, he also had success with tear-down trades. It was team-building trades that weren't OReilly where he failed.



Yup. One hired an ******* no one liked. The other hired an idiot.



Legwand had 1 year at 3 or 3.5 mil left, and fit as a 4th line vet center. Hunwick fit no where, because we already had a crappy Lefty bottom pair guy (Scandella). So, I'll just chalk this up to your usual ramblings.



Btw, I'm not a Murray supporter, I've acknowledged that nearly everything he did was wrong. There's a collection of folks, however, you'll forever refuse to acknowledge the few things he did right, even while the current guy is ****ing off in that area.

It baffles me that anyone could even try to defend the Lehner trade. And I'm not calling you out for it as you admit you don't like Murrays moves so don't take it that way.

Ottawa legit had 3 goalies under NHL contracts after extending Hammond. They HAD to trade one they weren't gonna carry 3 goalies. They had zero leverage to extract a first round pick from us. Then to boot we took a cap dump from then in Legwand too. You can debate Legwand's usefulness or lack thereof but that fact we got bent into taking his contract too is absolutely ridiculous. To this day I cant wrap my mind around this trade and what Murray was thinking.

 

[Dingo44]

It baffles me that anyone could even try to defend the Lehner trade. And I'm not calling you out for it as you admit you don't like Murrays moves so don't take it that way.

Ottawa legit had 3 goalies under NHL contracts after extending Hammond. They HAD to trade one they weren't gonna carry 3 goalies. They had zero leverage to extract a first round pick from us. Then to boot we took a cap dump from then in Legwand too. You can debate Legwand's usefulness or lack thereof but that fact we got bent into taking his contract too is absolutely ridiculous. To this day I cant wrap my mind around this trade and what Murray was thinking.

Even though I still liked Murray I hated the trade then and hated it more now. The Sabres were bidding against no one for Lehner. ZERO reason to give that up, no matter how much Murray liked him and knew him from Binghamton and all that. Doesn't look good when a trade like this goes on between an uncle and a nephew who used to work for the old team. I'm not saying that there was anything shady but it was complete overpayment - and in a great draft.

 

[dotcommunism]

The day to day operation of the hockey team is very much within his purview. The rules that govern punishment for example. Something the GM, along with input from the coach, would decide on. Something he didn’t focus much on while various players were being knuckleheads. Then seemingly out of now where with a month left in the season, a couple months after the Kane/NBA All star game debacle and a few years into his tenure. He decides a stern policy was needed. Something to encompass all things. He heard it had worked in other places. Yes he actually said something along those lines. Leading of course to the clown show of Sam sitting on the bench for an entire game for being late for 5mins to a morning stretch. Publicly embarrassing a young star unnecessarily

For him to not grasp from the get go that a young team would need structure and discipline was an enormous failure on his part. Combine that with him not seeing the possible issues from adding some of the players he did and how young many key players were. All of that led directly led to the circus and mess our locker room became.

Add in the other things he didn’t seem to know how to set up: the farm team, development, etc. I feel fairly comfortable saying he was in over his head trying to run the team. I don’t see how he gets a pass on any of that because a Team President was there when he started. At best they could share the blame.

You are missing my point. The point is that LaFontaine hired Murray to work under him. As I remember, and I will admit I may not be remembering accurately, LaFontaine intended to be actively involved with the team. Less than two months into Murray's tenure LaFontaine is suddenly fired and no one replaces him. Presumably Murray's job description changed at that time since I think one can reasonably conclude that Murray had to take over at least some of what LaFontaine planned to do himself.

The point is that Murray was brought in to do X under LaFontaine and was suddenly asked to do X and Y. Why LaFontaine was not replaced, either immediately, or later one when Murray's inability to handle certain tasks should have been clear, at least on the inside, is a question worth asking. Did Murray ask the Pegulas not to replace LaFontaine thinking that he could take on the additional tasks required? Or did the Pegulas opt not to replace LaFontaine for whatever reason?

A lot of the issues you raise as things that Murray was bad at are matters that a President of Hockey Operations, especially a hands on one, would have some input into, at least. So was Murray hired to do a job he was, in hindsight, largely unqualified for or was he hired to do a job he was largely qualified for that quickly turned into one he was not qualified for? If the latter is the case, I do not think it excuses Murray's failure in the larger role, but it points to Murray's failings being part of a much larger systemic, organizational failure.

 

[Chainshot]

It baffles me that anyone could even try to defend the Lehner trade. And I'm not calling you out for it as you admit you don't like Murrays moves so don't take it that way.

Ottawa legit had 3 goalies under NHL contracts after extending Hammond. They HAD to trade one they weren't gonna carry 3 goalies. They had zero leverage to extract a first round pick from us. Then to boot we took a cap dump from then in Legwand too. You can debate Legwand's usefulness or lack thereof but that fact we got bent into taking his contract too is absolutely ridiculous. To this day I cant wrap my mind around this trade and what Murray was thinking.

Going rate for higher-thought-of backups at the time was a late first. It's what was the principle in the Jones deal, same with Andersen. He paid market rate and brought in the guy he thought he knew, who turned out to need help and support away from the rink that Murray didn't identify and provide. It's the same sort of failing with Kane, with O'Reilly, and even given his constant brittleness, Bogosian.

 

[ManwithNoIdentity]

I know plenty of Wings fans can get pretty angsty and complain a lot but damn they’ve had it good compared to others

Feel bad for Sabre’s fans, still paying for another idiots moves

 

[Djp]

Ottawa legit had 3 goalies under NHL contracts after extending Hammond. They HAD to trade one they weren't gonna carry 3 goalies. They had zero leverage to extract a first round pick from us. Then to boot we took a cap dump from then in Legwand too. You can debate Legwand's usefulness or lack thereof but that fact we got bent into taking his contract too is absolutely ridiculous. To this day I cant wrap my mind around this trade and what Murray was thinking.

the demand for goalies was high/

People also seem to foget...Ullmark carried 4 years of team control vs 1 yr other goalies on the marked had.

for comparison purposes think about the Risto trade talk. People want to compare him to trades of players with 1 yr of team control left when he has 3 years left. And he is only 24 (same age as Lehner)..not someone 28 or 29 with 3 yrs of team control.

He was a goalie He was familiar with. If he had 21 pick he would have picked Samaonov.


You also need to remember there was the ROR trade happening too. If Buffalo traded the 2nd to Ottawa, Colorado would have asked for the pick at 21. Im unsure how that could have changes the dynamic of that trade.

With TM murray moves...on paper I get what he was trying to do.

He traded for ROR
He traded for Kane gving up secondary players.

People also forget with the 2 2nds trade with the Kings---there was likely an agreement around this trade from a deadline trade of Regher to the Kings for 2 2nds which was likely reserved foir a future prospect among a set of players that would be decuded by next deadline. trading McNabb for Des... this had alot to do with McNabb problems with the club (like nylamder had) and Buffalo entering a cap floor issue with to many folks on the roster and exposing McNabb to waivers and losing him.

The pysyk trade==he seemed not to do well on the LD side, Kuikov was going to be a UFA so he could possibly be snuck around the ED because he was a UFA where they dont have to protect him and then sign him while Pysyk likely would have been taken.

I get what TM was trying to do...i dont say I agree with all of his trades...but I get it.

With Botts---

i am not seeing someof his logic in his trades.

Beaulieu for a high 3rd and protected him
Kane trade--i think he could have done better in this
ROR trade---i get why he was traded. But If STL puts the top 10 protect on the 1st I would have thrown something on the 2021 2nd that made it a 1st if STL made the cup finals.
I think the trade of Nylander doesnt make sense on the surface right now without seeing the end of state. Nylander has high scoring potential and Buffalo needs scoring. i could see trading him for a center around the same age...not of r a D.
Miller trade---Vegas was cap strapped--why give a 2nd+5th. its the same logic as was mentioned for the Lehner trade....

 

[Sabre the Win]

After letting go of Nolan that was pretty much the end of the "tank era" and they proceeded to hire Bylsma to win. Murrays teams when trying to win reached 81 points and 78 points when they finished the season, in that 81 point season I actually felt positive change moving forward. Botterill's first season this team nose dived with 62 points, he then followed up short of even Murrays worst season when not tanking with 76 points and thats only because of hot goaltending got them on their miracle run. It wasnt the coaching.

Regardless of what depth and roster looks like, Murray faired better even if he sold our assets so what sins are we paying for? I'll tell you, Botterill trading ROR and hiring Housley.

That's where the real sin is. I dont care about how the roster looks... just f***ing win... Murray and Bylsma found a way to do better even after apparently creating sins we are paying for.

I know where the real blame is and it started with the hiring of Housley.

In truth they all share blame.

 

[BuffaloGooner]

I totally forgot Sam sat on the bench for an entire game, dressed. Such a dumb “punishment” that was far too excessive for what he did but also potentially put players in danger by intentionally using a less than full roster. It’s baffling in hindsight.