WGR: Joe DiBiase - Sabres Still Paying for the Sins of Tim Murray

[SnuggaRUDE]

Here’s what Murray did wrong:

Dumb overpayment on trades

Negotiating long term contracts

Building rochester

Building a defense, including a prospect pipeline

Giving a premium asset for a goalie who would get exposed with our current d core


Here’s what Murray did right:

Filling the center position

Turning down Taylor Hall in the negative column

Vanek and Moulson trades in the positive column

 

[sincerity0]

Turning down Taylor Hall in the negative column

Vanek and Moulson trades in the positive column

Hindsight is 20/20
At least from a fan base perspective Risto was viewed as a possible #1 dman. It’s easy to look back and say “no shit he shoulda made that trade” but it is what it is.

 

[The Red Helmet]

The title is true. They're also paying for the sins of the guy before TM. And the sins of Jason and Phil.

This franchise has been in a bad way for a long time.

They are in no way paying for the sins of the guys before Tim Murray. Murray had a clean slate with tons of picks and prospects, including a pick that guaranteed a top 1st line center. Saying we are paying for the mistakes before him is hyperbole.

 

[The Red Helmet]

Turning down Taylor Hall in the negative column

Vanek and Moulson trades in the positive column

Vanek was Darcy.

 

[DatGuy]

Somebody wake me up when TM gets another GM job...from my nap at the old folks home.

RIP my friend, that is going to be a long nap.

 

[sabresEH]

Nvm

 

[KeyserSoze81]

Turning down Taylor Hall in the negative column

Vanek and Moulson trades in the positive column

At the time, I would have been livid if they traded Risto for Hall. Risto's potential was sky high and he looked to be living up to it. Hall was inconsistent in Edmonton, and a potential #1 or #2 defenseman is typically more valuable than a winger. So I cannot fault Murray for turning that down.

 

[GameMisconduct]

At the time, I would have been livid if they traded Risto for Hall. Risto's potential was sky high and he looked to be living up to it. Hall was inconsistent in Edmonton, and a potential #1 or #2 defenseman is typically more valuable than a winger. So I cannot fault Murray for turning that down.

The other thing too to keep in mind is that Murray wasn't alone in turning down a trade for Hall. The report wasn't that Edmonton was specifically targeting Risto, it was that they made overtures on a range of young defensemen around the league and were turned down.

 

[GameMisconduct]

Also, a pretty big negative on Murray's record not mentioned so far (and I would argue it should rank right up at the top of the list of negatives) was hiring Disco. I can see the logic at the time, and there should be some credit given for the full-press pursuit of Babcock that preceded hiring Disco, but that coach was, to put it in the lingo of the time, a real turdburger.

In the scheme of things, I think hiring and keeping Housley was a significantly bigger mis-step for Botts, but the consequences of the Disco days were also pretty dire.

 

[SabresSharks]

No offense, @Sean M , but did this really deserve a bump? The amount of agonizing on this board about past mistakes and seasons of disappointment is depressing. Tim is long gone, never to return.

Please don't feed the beast.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Hindsight is 20/20
At least from a fan base perspective Risto was viewed as a possible #1 dman. It’s easy to look back and say “no **** he shoulda made that trade” but it is what it is.

And Hall was viewed as a 1a/1b guy at that time. 60 points in 2015 is like ~66 in 2019.

Vanek was Darcy.

My bad. Still Murray got way more than he deserved for Moulson.

 

[Gordo21]

They just wouldn't allow me to defend Botterill the way I felt it was necessary to defend him.

This is a very tricky place .

 

[Beerz]

Botts doing a great job exorcizing these sins.

But absolutely, Murray's wreckless style has required this rebuild 2 portion.

Considering how many assets Murray squandered, it's downright amazing Botts has us where we're at.

I'll even defend the OReilly trade.

Montour Miller and Thompson have come out of this trade. Nice pieces moving forward.

OReilly, on this team last year, would have been watching the playoffs from home.

Yeah...that's not how trade evaluation works...

As far as Murray...nothing he gave up has amounted to anything.... The only truly horrible trade was the Lehner trade

 

[Gordo21]

Yeah...that's not how trade evaluation works...

As far as Murray...nothing he gave up has amounted to anything.... The only truly horrible trade was the Lehner trade

No, none of the 23 assets he burned through turned into anything.

Wish he was still here. Lol

 

[Beerz]

No, none of the 23 assets he burned through turned into anything.

Wish he was still here. Lol

Name an asset that gets us in the playoffs since you defend the ROR trade by saying we dont get in playoffs last year with him

 

[Panthaz89]

Murray made so many moves to keep us at the bottom that year we were forced to find it funny to keep from crying. That was the year we had five goalies because any time one of them would start rolling they'd get traded. Also the year we gave Meszaros over four million dollars to come be utterly horrible for us. Also the year we literally traded productive players for a guy who everyone knew would be on IR the rest of the year after a tragic wet tracksuit accident. Chris Stewart is 5th in team points? TRADE HIM. Torrey Mitchel is showing heart and good physical play with defensive responsibility? Off to Montreal young lad!

Murray was firmly entrenched as our tank commander that year. Only time I've ever seen a GM actively try to make the team as bad as he could without getting sanctioned.

We traded our goalies right before the deadline...it was just a coincidence that we won those games if you looked at the scores our skaters were actually scoring like 3 goals on average when were doing well and the guys we got to replace them had nearly identical numbers.

 

[Chainshot]

Or in a revisionist biblical history, the crowd wanted Antipin (Barabbas) released ("Free Antipin" thread), and instead this time JBots (Pilate) refused.

To the point of the article, I (and @Chainshot) and others noted at the time of Murray's wheeling and dealing that BUF could likely not sign each and every prospect beyond some threshold of suck / marginal talent and remain under the 50-contract limit. I think an accurate revisionist history needs to examine how many pro contracts have arisen from all those Murray-traded-away-picks and whether that would fit in some hypothetical Sabres roster scenario. I do like what Botts has done re: increasing the number of AHL-only contracts. It's probably a minor point, and likely doesn't invalidate the anti-Murray thesis, but, in the wisdom of comedian Steven Wright, "You can't have everything. Where would you put it?"

It also never included the assets that Murray acquired in his tenure as GM to balance against his expenditures. In 1 first, 4 seconds and 4 thirds in during his tenure against the backdrop of 2 firsts, 5 seconds and 3 thirds out. Part of acquiring draft picks in a teardown is to be able to use them in trade. There is no pure draft build anywhere - even the slothful Jets under Chevaldayoff have made moves out on draft pick-for-player deals in his tenure that ultimately didn't work out.

Laying all of the team's current woes on one aspect of Murray's tenure lacks any sort of nuance and it certainly doens't look at what left and what came in on a more holistic scale. In a few years will we lament Botterill overspending draft capital with trading a 1st, two 2nds, and three thirds in his tenure while only acquiring back a pair of firsts and a 2nd so far in the same manner?

Do we look at the talent bleed under Regier where the late 20-somethings who would be the key vets on this team now were never found/drafted/developed? That other teams who found those players and used them in trades over time still have beneficial results of those draft selections? How about the rushing of Girgensons and Grigorenko, Ristolainen and Zadorov? Six picks in the top 70 of the 2013 draft resulted in a 40-point defenseman and the trade capital to get a quality 2-way center... and a lot of bupkis? The 2010 "reset" of the RHD as done by Regier resulted in... Mark Pysyk and literally no other player out of their 9 selections even playing an NHL game.

Joe's article is tabloid weak.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

It also never included the assets that Murray acquired in his tenure as GM to balance against his expenditures. Is 1 first, 4 seconds and 4 thirds in during his tenure against the backdrop of 2 firsts, 5 seconds and 3 thirds out. Part of acquiring draft picks in a teardown is to be able to use them in trade.

This is super spinny.

Pysyk, McNabb, Zadorov, White, Roslovic, Armia, Compher would be pretty decent depth. Murray didn't just trade away 2 1sts, he also traded 4 young 1st rounders; one of whom straight up busted.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Copy and paste for the next GM, and the GM after that. "The Sabres still paying for the sins of the last GM."

 

[Chainshot]

This is super spinny.

Pysyk, McNabb, Zadorov, White, Roslovic, Armia, Compher would be pretty decent depth. Murray didn't just trade away 2 1sts, he also traded 4 young 1st rounders; one of whom straight up busted.

Is it spin to point out that Murray did make moves to acquire draft capital? All of the parts in motion in his tenure were not Regier's alone. The spin is just dumping all of the current woes on one guy and not looking at the failings of the whole.

Also do you think that all of those players in your list would have developed along the same path they have with other teams if they had remained in Buffalo? Outside of Pysyk who's formative years were all inhouse and the Roslovic/White picks (who we don't know if they would have selected), it seems unlikely that all of them would have been at or near the level to which they are now given both Regier's and Murray's neglect of the farm. That seems highly optimistic given what we saw come out from the farm under those two.

Dumping on Murray remains simplistic.

 

[coastal]

Lehner for 2C

Stop

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

I don't blame just TM for the failure to draft and develop for over a decade. I do blame TM for being in the best position to use the draft picks he had to re-build the prospect pool and going the other direction. I don't care how many picks he brought in, he should not have wasted the ones he did. He should have hoarded them and made the most out of the (mediocre) prospects already in the system, and build upon that with the additional picks he brought in. If he was going to trade picks and prospects, it shouldn't have been for guys like Kane, Bogosian, Lehner, Kulikov, Deslauriers, etc.

 

[Dingo44]

I liked Murray more when he was GM than I do now in hindsight. I mean, I still wish he had a podcast. I'd listen to that thing religiously.

He was blunt and direct and he was bold about moves. But even when I really liked him I still felt he gave away too much in trades. I still think that Jets trade happens without including the first rounder, that he could have gotten Lehner for less than a first - especially in a good draft - and even the second in the first ROR trade could have been the other one he used on Guhle.

Darcy "won" trades but almost never made them. Murray "lost" trades and the results are mixed. But letting Rochester stumble and not bottling up the leaks were two big issues. I still don't blame him for the Bylsma hire too much. Former Stanley Cup winning coaches get at least one more chance soon after they're fired unless they completely implode. He was a disaster but Babcock was his first choice.

 

[Chainshot]

I liked Murray more when he was GM than I do now in hindsight. I mean, I still wishes he had a podcast. I'd listen to that thing religiously.

He was blunt and direct and he was bold about moves. But even when I really liked him I still felt he gave away too much in trades. I still think that Jets trade happens without including the first rounder, that he could have gotten Lehner for less than a first - especially in a good draft - and even the second in the first ROR trade could have been the other one he used on Guhle.

Darcy "won" trades but almost never made them. Murray "lost" trades and the results are mixed. But letting Rochester stumble and not bottling up the leaks were two big issues. I still don't blame him for the Bylsma hire too much. Former Stanley Cup winning coaches get at least one more chance soon after they're fired unless they completely implode. He was a disaster but Babcock was his first choice.

I had similar thoughts on the O'Reilly deal (either Compher or the 2nd too much) and the Jet deal had one piece too much in it as well. He spent freely and almost universally, his acquisitions fell short in Buffalo over the long haul and that may be more on his inability to deal with their off-ice stuff than the on-ice stuff. Too much archaic thinking about how they conducted themselves off the ice and not enough done around too many. That's by far the biggest failing toward the personnel he spent all of that one - failure to get many of them mentally well.

We can also look back and wonder if Babs would have had them rowing in the same direction. Who knows, maybe he notices Lehner's issues or gets Kane on a straighter path or O'Reilly onto a happier place. We'll never know.

 

[Chainshot]

Lehner for 2C

Stop

What?