News Article: Jimmy D. : "Red Wings won't 'sit back' in attempt to rebuild"

[Reddwit]

I wish we had the ammo for Trouba, he would be perfect.

We don't?

Trouba was a hold-out, took his team to arbitration after they made it to the WCF, and has arbitration rights where Winnipeg can only get elect a one-year deal because of JT's proximity to UFA. Thats not to say that JT holds all the cards but the clock is ticking. That limits their time to find that vaunted quantity-for-quantity deal. And JT is either being traded on a 1 year deal with UFA around the corner or you have to find a team that he's willing to come to terms with before a trade is executed.

I think Detroit could really put together a very competitive package. Personally, I put anything but Larkin and Cholowski on the table, including our 2019 first if it ends up being outside the top 6-7.

 

[Winger98]

I'm replying to both of you below, for the sake clarity and brevity.

the guys 28 and has multiple Norris trophies(and four 1st all star teams)

he could put up 20 points and still have teams tripping over themselves to be the one to give him whatever he wants

he's been fine anyways,mostly just a bunch of bad luck with shooting percentages for and against over a small sample size

Can't imagine that will make much of a dent. He and his agent could easily spin it as him having a hard time integrating himself with a veteran core (Thornton, Burns, Pavs, Couture, Vlasic) that has been together for eons now, a new role for the first time in his career, etc. He could also make folks forget about a "weak" season pretty fast if he has a good playoff showing.

Either way, I can't imagine a scenario where Detroit signs Karlsson without being the highest bidder.

I think there will always be some team willing to go really high - such as when Edmonton reportedly offered Hossa 9/$81m before he signed with us for a season - but I think a noticeably bad season will limit the number of teams willing to go really high. And I think his list will already be shortened by Karlsson's own personal preferences. I don't think Detroit could go low, but I also don't think they have to blow every other offer out of the water.

Also, personally, I'm not a huge Karlsson fan. He puts up a ton of points, he seems to always have good "fancy" stats...yet it seems his teams always give up more goals when he's on the ice than they score. I've seen it excused in Ottawa because Ottawa is lousy and he had to gamble more. But the same thing is happening in SJ. I've seen the guy compared to Paul Coffey, but I remember Coffey in Detroit when the game had shifted and his game hadn't. I also remember Phil Housley. These guys aren't necessarily bad, but I think the expectation is more Pronger/Lidstrom/Bourque than Coffey/Housley/Leetch.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

I'm replying to both of you below, for the sake clarity and brevity.




I think there will always be some team willing to go really high - such as when Edmonton reportedly offered Hossa 9/$81m before he signed with us for a season - but I think a noticeably bad season will limit the number of teams willing to go really high. And I think his list will already be shortened by Karlsson's own personal preferences. I don't think Detroit could go low, but I also don't think they have to blow every other offer out of the water.

Also, personally, I'm not a huge Karlsson fan. He puts up a ton of points, he seems to always have good "fancy" stats...yet it seems his teams always give up more goals when he's on the ice than they score. I've seen it excused in Ottawa because Ottawa is lousy and he had to gamble more. But the same thing is happening in SJ. I've seen the guy compared to Paul Coffey, but I remember Coffey in Detroit when the game had shifted and his game hadn't. I also remember Phil Housley. These guys aren't necessarily bad, but I think the expectation is more Pronger/Lidstrom/Bourque than Coffey/Housley/Leetch.

Karlsson would be the second best defenseman we had since Lidstrom and arguably the best get we have ever gotten in Free agency. My only fear is his contract might be bad in a few years. I'm guess he will want $12M/8....96M for a guy who will be 29.

 

[Winger98]

Karlsson would be the second best defenseman we had since Lidstrom and arguably the best get we have ever gotten in Free agency. My only fear is his contract might be bad in a few years. I'm guess he will want $12M/8....96M for a guy who will be 29.

Konstantinov was pretty damn good. I'm not saying Karlsson is bad, and I think comparing him to Coffey/Leetch/Housley makes that pretty obvious. I don't think he's as great as he's made out to be, though. And I think expectations should be lowered a bit for what we actually get - a gambler who will(should) be a massive boost to our power play, but is going to make you shake your head when he gambles and loses.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Karlsson is a team worst -9, next worst is -4 (Kane). To put this in perspective, at 5-on-5 he's also partnered with arguably a Top 3 Defensive Dman (Vlasic) .

14PG, 7pts. (4 of which are PPpts.)...extrapolated to 82GP is 17 EV pts., 40 pts. total.

He has ZERO goals so far.

I really hope we don't throw $9-12M+ for 7 yrs at him.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Karlsson would be the second best defenseman we had since Lidstrom and arguably the best get we have ever gotten in Free agency. My only fear is his contract might be bad in a few years. I'm guess he will want $12M/8....96M for a guy who will be 29.

That's my issue with participating in the Karlsson sweepstakes. He'd obviously be the best Dman on the team and make the blueline much better. But as you point out, at what cost?

He's not old but he's not particularly young either, especially after having significant achilles and ankle injuries. And Karlsson's game relies on his talent and physical abilities, which take a greater hit with age. I don't see him having a last 10 years of his career like Lidstrom so by the time this team is in a place to compete, Karlsson may be incredibly expensive for what he'll provide at that point.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Konstantinov was pretty damn good. I'm not saying Karlsson is bad, and I think comparing him to Coffey/Leetch/Housley makes that pretty obvious. I don't think he's as great as he's made out to be, though. And I think expectations should be lowered a bit for what we actually get - a gambler who will(should) be a massive boost to our power play, but is going to make you shake your head when he gambles and loses.

Konstantinov was drafted by the red wings not a free agency add.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Konstantinov was drafted by the red wings not a free agency add.

He wasn't calling him a FA add. Konstantinov is the 2nd best D man that the Wings have had in the last 30 years.

Also, the best defensive FA add is Brian Rafalski. If we get Karlsson, it will be at a very unpalatable salary for a very unpalatable term. Rafalski was a top pairing guy that we got for 6M (against a 56M cap (or a little over 10% of the cap) for 6 years. IF we were to sign Karlsson, it would be probably 12M x 7 minimum against an 80M cap. or roughly 15% of the cap. Or in dollar terms, we got Rafalski for 36M for 6 years and would be paying Karlsson roughly 84M for 7.

Hell, Brian Rafalski might be one of the best UFA signings in the history of the NHL.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

He wasn't calling him a FA add. Konstantinov is the 2nd best D man that the Wings have had in the last 30 years.

Also, the best defensive FA add is Brian Rafalski. If we get Karlsson, it will be at a very unpalatable salary for a very unpalatable term. Rafalski was a top pairing guy that we got for 6M (against a 56M cap (or a little over 10% of the cap) for 6 years. IF we were to sign Karlsson, it would be probably 12M x 7 minimum against an 80M cap. or roughly 15% of the cap. Or in dollar terms, we got Rafalski for 36M for 6 years and would be paying Karlsson roughly 84M for 7.

Hell, Brian Rafalski might be one of the best UFA signings in the history of the NHL.

I would put Chara and Hasek over Rafalski in best UFA signing even Hossa for the Blackhawks. And Konstantinov unfortunately didn't play his entire and one could argue than @29 Karlsson is a lot more accomplished as a Defender. Having already won a Norris trophy. Multiple all star games etc

 

[sully6one]

What he said just in GM terms, they’re drafting Hughes, signing Duchene, Karlsson and Bobrovsky and going on another 20+ year playoff run

 

[ricky0034]

Karlsson threads are always an amusing read,i've never seen someone with 2 Norris trophies(that could very easily have 4 Norris trophies) at the age of 28 get so much hate

and all because some people don't like the way he plays the game,he's like the anti Shea Weber

I'm replying to both of you below, for the sake clarity and brevity.




I think there will always be some team willing to go really high - such as when Edmonton reportedly offered Hossa 9/$81m before he signed with us for a season - but I think a noticeably bad season will limit the number of teams willing to go really high. And I think his list will already be shortened by Karlsson's own personal preferences. I don't think Detroit could go low, but I also don't think they have to blow every other offer out of the water.

Also, personally, I'm not a huge Karlsson fan. He puts up a ton of points, he seems to always have good "fancy" stats...yet it seems his teams always give up more goals when he's on the ice than they score. I've seen it excused in Ottawa because Ottawa is lousy and he had to gamble more. But the same thing is happening in SJ. I've seen the guy compared to Paul Coffey, but I remember Coffey in Detroit when the game had shifted and his game hadn't. I also remember Phil Housley. These guys aren't necessarily bad, but I think the expectation is more Pronger/Lidstrom/Bourque than Coffey/Housley/Leetch.

you mean when he was in his mid 30s and won a Norris? the horror

Karlsson is a team worst -9, next worst is -4 (Kane). To put this in perspective, at 5-on-5 he's also partnered with arguably a Top 3 Defensive Dman (Vlasic) .

14PG, 7pts. (4 of which are PPpts.)...extrapolated to 82GP is 17 EV pts., 40 pts. total.

He has ZERO goals so far.

I really hope we don't throw $9-12M+ for 7 yrs at him.

Truth By Numbers: Is Erik Karlsson really struggling in San Jose? - Sportsnet.ca

He wasn't calling him a FA add. Konstantinov is the 2nd best D man that the Wings have had in the last 30 years.

Also, the best defensive FA add is Brian Rafalski. If we get Karlsson, it will be at a very unpalatable salary for a very unpalatable term. Rafalski was a top pairing guy that we got for 6M (against a 56M cap (or a little over 10% of the cap) for 6 years. IF we were to sign Karlsson, it would be probably 12M x 7 minimum against an 80M cap. or roughly 15% of the cap. Or in dollar terms, we got Rafalski for 36M for 6 years and would be paying Karlsson roughly 84M for 7.

Hell, Brian Rafalski might be one of the best UFA signings in the history of the NHL.

aside from being a much worse player Brian Rafalski was also 5 years older

 

[Shaman464]

Karlsson threads are always an amusing read,i've never seen someone with 2 Norris trophies(that could very easily have 4 Norris trophies) at the age of 28 get so much hate

and all because some people don't like the way he plays the game,he's like the anti Shea Weber



you mean when he was in his mid 30s and won a Norris? the horror




Truth By Numbers: Is Erik Karlsson really struggling in San Jose? - Sportsnet.ca




aside from being a much worse player Brian Rafalski was also 5 years older

For a guy who got 2 Norris because many years Norris=best offensive defenseman. He's a great PMD, but, I wouldn't put him top 10 in terms of all around D-men.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Karlsson threads are always an amusing read,i've never seen someone with 2 Norris trophies(that could very easily have 4 Norris trophies) at the age of 28 get so much hate

and all because some people don't like the way he plays the game,he's like the anti Shea Weber



you mean when he was in his mid 30s and won a Norris? the horror




Truth By Numbers: Is Erik Karlsson really struggling in San Jose? - Sportsnet.ca




aside from being a much worse player Brian Rafalski was also 5 years older

Thanks for posting the article, only time will tell. The ankle, achillies injuries worry me along with his defensive acumen, age & being a gambler offensively. We don't have a Vlasic/Konstantinov Def.Dman to cover for him, nor a 2-way Stud Josi/Pietrangelo/Doughty, nor a Generational HOF'er Lidstrom. If we did have at least 1 of those & were a contender, then maybe the risk to dole some absurd $12M on EK would be palatable as the missing piece, albeit a big piece.

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

Erik Kacceleratedrebuild

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

For a guy who got 2 Norris because many years Norris=best offensive defenseman. He's a great PMD, but, I wouldn't put him top 10 in terms of all around D-men.

Yikes, he is a top 10 player in the league for me, not just D-man.

I think Hedman, Karlsson and Doughty are in that conversation in terms of top 10 players in terms of D-man.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Karlsson reminds me of a 12 year old High End Sports Car being eyed by a middle income/lower income person as a daily driver on a rough terrain & long commute, still has some miles on the motor, but with each passing mile the risk increases exponentially, especially considering the cost of repairs to said person.

If you're trying to win a World Rally Championship (all-terrain) race, do you buy a 12 yr. old Ferrari w/70K miles or a newer/recent model Audi/Subaru type of Rally car.

In a vaccuum (SC run) EK as a rental or even 1-3 yrs, absolutely...7 yrs ouch.

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

Karlsson reminds me of a 12 year old High End Sports Car being eyed by a middle income/lower income person as a daily driver on a rough terrain & long commute, still has some miles on the motor, but with each passing mile the risk increases exponentially, especially considering the cost of repairs to said person.

If you're trying to win a World Rally Championship (all-terrain) race, do you buy a 12 yr. old Ferrari w/70K miles or a newer/recent model Audi/Subaru type of Rally car.

In a vaccuum (SC run) EK as a rental or even 1-3 yrs, absolutely...7 yrs ouch.

... Really putting the "Kar" in Karlsson!

(sorry)

 

[ricky0034]

For a guy who got 2 Norris because many years Norris=best offensive defenseman. He's a great PMD, but, I wouldn't put him top 10 in terms of all around D-men.

I see this brought up all the time in an attempt to discredit Karlsson but i've never seen a response to this that makes any sense at all:

if that is true then why did he also lose the Norris to a guy he got 31 more points than in 2016?

it was his best offensive season to date,he lead the league in assists(not just Defensemen,all players),he was top 5 in league scoring(not just Defensemen,all players),he lead his team in scoring by 21 points

for this narrative to be even remotely true he should have won in a landslide right?

but no he's the first Defenseman to lead the league in assists since literally Bobby Orr and doesn't win at all despite at the same time the Norris just being given to the best offensive guy?

 

[lomekian]

I think a lot of people have forgotten what EK did (whilst carrying an injury) for the Sens in that playoff run...he absolutely carried that team. Is he the best all-round D in the NHL? No. But he is the best offensive D in the NHL. Paul Coffey is a decent comparison...People love to diminish Coffey and his time in Detroit because Scotty ran him out of town not long before we won the cup. But that was A) when we had Lidstrom and Konstantinov so could lose a D-man in order to create a more balanced roster, B) he had had a big falling out with Bowman & C) he had just put up 74 points in 76 games at +19 as a 35 year old. In fact in 2 full, one half post trade and one shortened season for Detroit he played 231 games, putting up 239 points between the age of 32 & 35. He was also +72 in that time. In his last season he was part of a TOTALLY dominant regular season team that fell foul of the AVs come the playoffs.

IF Karlsson was the main offensive D on a stacked roster nearing its peak a la the mid 90s wings, he'd put up PPG and have a plus rating for sure.

I don't know if strategically its worth Detroit paying him with money and term that they would need to in order to get him given where we are in our cycle, but that really depends on how our current prospects develop this season, who we can pick up in UFA and who we can trade at the deadline. Lose Howard, Daley and Nike and the kids all kick on and it becomes a much more interesting signing for me.

 

[Shaman464]

Yikes, he is a top 10 player in the league for me, not just D-man.

I think Hedman, Karlsson and Doughty are in that conversation in terms of top 10 players in terms of D-man.

McDavid
Matthews
Crosby
Malkin
Hedman
Doughty
MacKinnon
Kuznetsov
Ovechkin
Giroux
Hall
Jones
Kopitar
Stamkos

Are all players I put ahead of him. And that's just off the top of my head.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

McDavid
Matthews
Crosby
Malkin
Hedman
Doughty
MacKinnon
Kuznetsov
Ovechkin
Giroux
Hall
Jones
Kopitar
Stamkos

Are all players I put ahead of him. And that's just off the top of my head.

Jones is interesting, I thought he should have won the Norris last year. So that is an omission for me when initially posting.

I still have EK comfortably in front of Stamkos and Giroux.

I think he is in front of Hall and Kuznetsov as well.

Karlsson to me is also an incredibly exciting player to watch every night. He makes 82 games fun, he is a gate draw in a way Doughty isn't for instance. I would have to sit down and do a top 25. Still sort of waiting on the other 7 d-man you're taking over him beyond the three listed here.

Karlsson is pretty arguable with the players being listed though. He is a franchise player is kind of the point and two years ago he was dragging a mediocre team to within a shot of the SCF.

 

[SCD]

For the next 24 months, this team should not be looking to buy any player over 24 currently. By the time this team has developed to play with these high-priced players, they could be well past their prime.

I have never really followed Karlsson, but I do have vivid memories of Larkin blowing around him several time for goals during his rookie season. Not the right player and not the right time.

 

[SirloinUB]

Signing Karlsson to a 12x7 contract is a no brainer. He is a dynamic player that has shown he can carry a team. Adding Karlsson and a top 5 pick should set this team on a direct path to contender status.

Shit, I’d consider a max contract for Ek.

 

[TheMule93]

Signing Karlsson to a 12x7 contract is a no brainer. He is a dynamic player that has shown he can carry a team. Adding Karlsson and a top 5 pick should set this team on a direct path to contender status.

****, I’d consider a max contract for Ek.

If a massive proportion of our cap wasnt locked down on mediocre players long term, this could be more feasible

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

If a massive proportion of our cap wasnt locked down on mediocre players long term, this could be more feasible

Most of the cap is actually gone by the end of next year.

The Wings also entering negotiations knowing a heck of a lot more about the leagues lockout plans and projected future cap figures than any of us likely matters.