Jim Rutherford Needs to Go

[EightyOne]

any non-Penguins fan viewing this thread will think what a bunch of entitled, spoiled rotten fans a lot of you are. the guy came in and made a string of great moves which brought us back-to-back Cups. after years of disappointment and wasted away years, we finally witnessed the Crosby-Malkin era reach their full potential. it was literally what we had all been hoping for and expecting since 2009. back-to-back cups, losing game 6 to the eventual Cup champs, a disappointing season where everyone lost their way a bit, and now a team that looks like one of the top couple teams in the league.. not a bad job. no GM is perfect, and neither is JR. it's impossible to maintain a 1000% batting average, which seemed to be the case in his first couple years here. but, corrections have since been made, and this team looks to be back on the right track. seriously, what else do you want? teams can't make Cup runs every single year.. this isn't the NBA.. it's probably literally physically impossible when you factor in the grueling fatigue aspect of a single long Cup run.

if you're all so disappointed, i hear Shero is looking for a job.. i'm sure he can convince his buddy Dan to give it another go too.

Take it easy....

 

[HandshakeLine]

This thread has become weird.

...Become?

 

[Gurglesons]

CP set Shero up to create a dynasty, Shero set JR up to rescue the org from his mess.

The guy who was given the most gifts to start out as GM in recent memory won a single cup, while the guy sent in to clean up his mess won two.

It’s honestly not a contest, and I was never a Shero basher, but this **** is obvious.

Rutherford got to come in after the cap adjustments of Letang, Crosby, and Malkin with a somewhat stocked prospect cupboard.

Shero needed to be fired, mainly due to his arrogance regarding his coach and the fact he also was not allowing the young players to jump up into the roster by signing bad vets.

 

[Khelandros]

any non-Penguins fan viewing this thread will think what a bunch of entitled, spoiled rotten fans a lot of you are. the guy came in and made a string of great moves which brought us back-to-back Cups. after years of disappointment and wasted away years, we finally witnessed the Crosby-Malkin era reach their full potential. it was literally what we had all been hoping for and expecting since 2009. back-to-back cups, losing game 6 to the eventual Cup champs, a disappointing season where everyone lost their way a bit, and now a team that looks like one of the top couple teams in the league.. not a bad job. no GM is perfect, and neither is JR. it's impossible to maintain a 1000% batting average, which seemed to be the case in his first couple years here. but, corrections have since been made, and this team looks to be back on the right track. seriously, what else do you want? teams can't make Cup runs every single year.. this isn't the NBA.. it's probably literally physically impossible when you factor in the grueling fatigue aspect of a single long Cup run.

if you're all so disappointed, i hear Shero is looking for a job.. i'm sure he can convince his buddy Dan to give it another go too.

How would reading this thread make it any different than any other day?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Rutherford got to come in after the cap adjustments of Letang, Crosby, and Malkin with a somewhat stocked prospect cupboard.

Shero needed to be fired, mainly due to his arrogance regarding his coach and the fact he also was not allowing the young players to jump up into the roster by signing bad vets.

Shero got to have those guys on their ELCs and he was the one with the stocked cupboard like no GM has had in quite some time.

He just became obsessed with collecting blue liners and winning with his guy. He also was very risk adverse and was forced by the brass to pull the trigger on the Hossa deal.

JR was handed a god awful shitty mess to clean up and his prospect pool was bottom of the league.

He just made the right moves and developed a funnel system with a coach that actually understood how to develop young guys and fit them into his system... a totally foreign concept to DB and Shero.

I’m 100% sure Guentzel, Rust and Murray would have had to grind it out under DB and never had the same success as they had under Sullivan.

And a guy like Marino... please. He would be grinding away in the A. Zero chance Shero and DB would have ever carried 8 blue liners and benched a vet for him to show his stuff.

 

[Gurglesons]

Shero got to have those guys on their ELCs and he was the one with the stocked cupboard like no GM has had in quite some time.

He just became obsessed with collecting blue liners and winning with his guy. He also was very risk adverse and was forced by the brass to pull the trigger on the Hossa deal.

JR was handed a god awful ****ty mess to clean up and his prospect pool was bottom of the league.

He just made the right moves and developed a funnel system with a coach that actually understood how to develop young guys and fit them into his system... a totally foreign concept to DB and Shero.

I’m 100% sure Guentzel, Rust and Murray would have had to grind it out under DB and never had the same success as they had under Sullivan.

And a guy like Marino... please. He would be grinding away in the A. Zero chance Shero and DB would have ever carried 8 blue liners and benched a vet for him to show his stuff.

I mean this is all hypothetical. JR killed a lot of progression in his first year and basically sold away ready to play players like Sundqvist as well.

I dunno, Rutherford obviously has the legacy, but their career paths are fairly identical imo. And I’d say a lot of the success of our young talent is on Sullivan versus JR.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I mean this is all hypothetical. JR killed a lot of progression in his first year and basically sold away ready to play players like Sundqvist as well.

I dunno, Rutherford obviously has the legacy, but their career paths are fairly identical imo. And I’d say a lot of the success of our young talent is on Sullivan versus JR.

Of course it’s hypothetical, but it’s based on real facts that young players mostly floundered under the Shero/DB regime and they flourish under Sullivan/JR.

Pens have an identity under Sullivan and JR. Under Shero they had none... it was basically “hope the generational guys carry us“.

I just don’t see how their career paths are identical. One guy operated under heavy constraints and did the same thing as Shero did with a golden ticket and unlimited resources... 1 cup and 1 finals appearance.

Then JR came in and cleaned up Shero’s mess and won two cups.

There is a reason Shero is unemployed again and will have a legacy of almost dooming the Crosby and Malkin era, while JR is a HOFer.

 

[HandshakeLine]

To Shero’s credit, he also dragged the organization kicking and screaming into the 21st century. As many faults as Shero has, it’s easy to forget how bad CP was at the end of his tenure too.

Again, I’m firmly in the JR camp here, but it’s worth thinking about how backwards this organization really was in the early 2000s.

 

[Gurglesons]

Of course it’s hypothetical, but it’s based on real facts that young players mostly floundered under the Shero/DB regime and they flourish under Sullivan/JR.

Pens have an identity under Sullivan and JR. Under Shero they had none... it was basically “hope the generational guys carry us“.

I just don’t see how their career paths are identical. One guy operated under heavy constraints and did the same thing as Shero did with a golden ticket and unlimited resources... 1 cup and 1 finals appearance.

Then JR came in and cleaned up Shero’s mess and won two cups.

There is a reason Shero is unemployed again and will have a legacy of almost dooming the Crosby and Malkin era, while JR is a HOFer.

Shero built WBS which is what led to us having a farm that enabled JR to be a “HOFer”.

I mean, JR has been great, but too many people diminish the positive impact Shero had on this organization.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

To Shero’s credit, he also dragged the organization kicking and screaming into the 21st century. As many faults as Shero has, it’s easy to forget how bad CP was at the end of his tenure too.

CP probably was forced to use a rotary phone by Marino because pulse was cheaper than tone.

I think Marino and the constraints on him sucked away CPs soul.

He had to deal with so much BS and then feed the fans a plate of fresh shit about how obvious deals to sell off players were “good for the team”.

You could see how it physically wore him down.

I still remember during that Kovy PC he looked like Raoul Duke doing an impersonation of Dr Gonzo.

Shero built WBS which is what led to us having a farm that enabled JR to be a “HOFer”.

I mean, JR has been great, but too many people diminish the positive impact Shero had on this organization.

Shero walked into a team with Malkin and Letang on his farm and he was holding the second overall pick in a phenomenal draft.

CP also gifted him a #1 defenseman on a sweetheart deal.

JR walked onto a team with no direction, an avg prospect pool, broken superstars and one Rob Scuderi contract.

If you think Shero was turning that ship around, I couldn’t disagree more.

 

[HandshakeLine]

It’s crazy when you remember that before Shero, the Pens’ front office didn’t have email until Shero joined the organization. Nor, as @pixiesfanyo mentions, did they have an actual farm team.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I like CP from a nostalgic standpoint but whether it was ownership pressure or his own stubbornness, the RS/CP split really did represent a turning point for this organization, and mostly in a positive way.

I don’t think Shero is a good fit for a modern contender, but at the same time, I don’t think JR could have turned the team into a winner without the infrastructure in place that Shero did.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I like CP from a nostalgic standpoint but whether it was ownership pressure or his own stubbornness, the RS/CP split really did represent a turning point for this organization, and mostly in a positive way.

I don’t think Shero is a good fit for a modern contender, but at the same time, I don’t think JR could have turned the team into a winner without the infrastructure in place that Shero did.

Shero did a good job of creating synergy between WBS and the big club, but I think they did a pretty shitty job developing young guys.

JR and Sullivan have been leaps and bounds better in that regard.

I was listening to Sullivan talk on the radio about Guentzel the day they called him back up... he basically said we need to set this kid up to succeed.. he’s skilled and he needs to play with skilled players.

It was another revelation that this coach gets it.

DB would have had him grinding with a 40 year old Craig Adams and sent him down a week later.

 

[JTG]

Shero did a good job of creating synergy between WBS and the big club, but I think they did a pretty ****ty job developing young guys.

JR and Sullivan have been leaps and bounds better in that regard.

I was listening to Sullivan talk on the radio about Guentzel the day they called him back up... he basically said we need to set this kid up to succeed.. he’s skilled and he needs to play with skilled players.

It was another revelation that this coach gets it.

DB would have had him grinding with a 40 year old Craig Adams and sent him down a week later.

I think Shero caught a lot shit for developing guys but I think our 2 Cup runs had Shero's fingerprints on it. Rust, Guentzel, Murray, Kuhnhackl, and Maatta all played a part. Jarry and Blueger are finding traction now. Bortuzzo, Sundqvist, and Muzzin are productive on other teams. His guys took time to develop.

The issue with Shero, IMO, was that he was so f***ing steadfast in what he believed. His belief in DB was borderline weird. His dedication to drafting PMD over basically any other position probably wasn't the best philosophy looking back. I think he started going a bit too hard at the deadlines just to prove a point (two 2nds for Crankshaft still blows my mind). In that regard, I much prefer JR because he is more about the hockey trade. Those 1-for-1 deals that he has pulled off masterfully can change the course of a team.

In terms of coaching - Sully is in a different class than DB. Bylsma caught lightning in a bottle by pulling the chains off of a young, fast team that had been held down by a dictator before. Sully can play the chess game a head coach has to play. He embraces young legs and rewards good play yet will discipline bad, for the most part. Sully hasn't gone "Full Torts" like I expected, which is good.

 

[JTG]

And thinking about Muzzin - I still have no idea how Shero let him walk. I know he had back surgery and that scared a lot of teams off from drafting him, but the dude had pedigree. It's funny because though he had some serious injury concerns, the dude has been really healthy throughout his career.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

It’s crazy when you remember that before Shero, the Pens’ front office didn’t have email until Shero joined the organization. Nor, as @pixiesfanyo mentions, did they have an actual farm team.

They split with Syracuse and other farm teams, but WBS Penguins weren't because of Shero, Craig Patrick's brother was the first ever coach for WBS.

WBS was around from 1999, about 6yrs before Dull Shero took over. I mean sure, it might not have been the best developmental system at that point, but it was still finding its footing. It also did churn out some serviceable 3rd-4th line types before Shero took over, but that was also due to better drafting/scouting and filling WBS with better talent.

Man...

 

[larueskee]

I think it is still hard to think of firing JR after two cups wins a couple of years back. Now if the Pens stumble in the first round I'm going to have to go back to his contract signings from a few years back and tighten his leash. I'm talking about Olli Maata's deal, Brian Dumolin's, and Justin Schultz's. Schultz hasn't been the same since 2016-2017, Lucky to move that Olli Maaata contract, but Dumolin isn't bad when he is playing. JJ has improved but I am really worried about what happens to him come playoff time. JJ has never been on a team thathas won a playoff round. Thats big, and that worries me.

 

[Beau Knows]

Interesting seeing this thread again.

I joined in calling for his firing as well when this thread was made. Some of his moves in the last couple years been perplexing to say the least, but here we are now playing in the toughest division in the league, while plagued with injuries and still having a great season. What's he's done has worked and it's completely possible he could get a 4th Cup this year.

 

[ronduguayshair]

It’s more clear than ever the Botteril was the brains behind our management.

 

[Turin]

It’s more clear than ever the Botteril was the brains behind our management.

This take is definitely not aging well, even I subscribed to it when JR got Gudbranson. Botts did good stuff (best thing was bring in Sullivan to WBS) but he might be better as an assistant than an actual visionary spearheading a franchise.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

It’s more clear than ever the Botteril was the brains behind our management.

Yeah, he would have given Pettersson, Skinner money.

 

[Pens x]

I hope no team hires Shero. He’s honestly so bad at being a GM. We wasted too many years with him at the helm. He’s a fraud, and hopefully every team finally realize this. You could see very early in his tenure as the Pens GM that he had no idea what he was doing.

 

[canadianguy77]

I hope no team hires Shero. He’s honestly so bad at being a GM. We wasted too many years with him at the helm. He’s a fraud, and hopefully every team finally realize this. You could see very early in his tenure as the Pens GM that he had no idea what he was doing.

I’ve often thought that he never actually wanted this organization to win a championship, although he fluked into the win in 09.

 

[hiptanaka]

For most of his tenure, Craig Patrick had to manage the team with marked financial constraints, something neither Shero or Rutherford had to deal with. His primary job in the early 00s was not necessarily to win, but to basically to keep the team financially solvent by shedding salary and prioritizing young players and those on bargain contracts. The system used by the '09 team was largely designed by Therrien (a CP appointee), not by Bylsma (a Shero appointee). After a string of drafting misfires in the mid to late 90s, he rebounded pretty decently with homegrown guys like Orpik, Whitney, Letang, Goligoski, and Talbot.

Shero came to a team that already had Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, and Letang, used a #2 pick on Jordan Staal (when Toews/Backstrom were on the board), used an 8th overall pick on Derrick Pouliot, and essentially ran a team with no identity for most of his tenure. I will certainly give him credit for the Rust/Murray/Guentzel picks, which Rutherford became the beneficiary of, but upside means little without the right philosophy or culture to nurture that talent. Shero never quite grasped the concept, as would later become apparent.

 

[ronduguayshair]

For most of his tenure, Craig Patrick had to manage the team with marked financial constraints, something neither Shero or Rutherford had to deal with. His primary job in the early 00s was not necessarily to win, but to basically to keep the team financially solvent by shedding salary and prioritizing young players and those on bargain contracts. The system used by the '09 team was largely designed by Therrien (a CP appointee), not by Bylsma (a Shero appointee). After a string of drafting misfires in the mid to late 90s, he rebounded pretty decently with homegrown guys like Orpik, Whitney, Letang, Goligoski, and Talbot.

Shero came to a team that already had Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, and Letang, used a #2 pick on Jordan Staal (when Toews/Backstrom were on the board), used an 8th overall pick on Derrick Pouliot, and essentially ran a team with no identity for most of his tenure. I will certainly give him credit for the Rust/Murray/Guentzel picks, which Rutherford became the beneficiary of, but upside means little without the right philosophy or culture to nurture that talent. Shero never quite grasped the concept, as would later become apparent.

the no identity point is well taken especially the year he traded for all the old dudes at tge trade deadline