Jim Benning & Management Megathread -- Leadership Level is over 9000 Edition

[brokenhole]

Delorme has to have something really serious on the Aquilinis or someone close to them.

It's the only explanation that makes sense.

Maybe his father saved the elder Aquilini from a vampire attack in Sicily and he swore an oath to protect his idiot son out of gratitude or something.

I'm leaning towards the Vampire part.

 

[banme*]

i was

You complain about everything though.

 

[Peter10]

I have a feeling gaunce and therfore an extension of gillis is a symbolic 29th overall pick from losing the stanely cup. And gillis is as much a part of the championship team jim benning is building also contributed horvat.

Now if i were to ask u who are mike gillis top draft picks. Your answer would likely be bo horvat and brendan gaunce.

The thing is mike gillis was hired in April 2008. Some 7 odd years ago.

Now if mike gillis. Who inherited the following players in or about to be in their prime.

Sedin
sedin
kesler
burrows
bieksa
salo
ohlund
luongo
schneider
edler
hansen


You would think that jim benning receiving the ripe helping of

Horvat
gaunce

Would give good ol jim a bit a leeway

Raawww rawww over paid contract. Sorry son please sit down.

Benning is buildingdrafting a champion

Difference is, Gillis made the team better after arriving while Benning has made it significantly worse while still adding salary.

Also Gaunce was drafted 26th one year after the cup final. I suggest to also look up who was available after the Gillis picks in the first round. There isnt a whole lot after that except for the odd unexpected guys that slipped by lots of teams into the 2nd or 3rd round.

Drafting in/after the 2nd round was poor, i give you that but that is in the hands of the scouts (which should have been fired by Gillis) and guess who was playing a major role in this? Correct, Delorme the guy that is still there with Benning at helm.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Difference is, Gillis made the team better after arriving while Benning has made it significantly worse while still adding salary.

your argument lacks nuance. The teams are in different places in the natural life cycle of hockey teams. The Sedins were drafted 2 decades ago. Benning shouldn't be looking to do the same things Gillis did to turn this into the one and done 2011 contender. We are in a different place now.

This franchise needs to be built through the draft.

By all accounts the entire scouting and ranking system has been dramatically altered since Gillis or even the Burke/Nonis years.

I'm excited about building through the draft and hopefully having one of the better scouting/drafting/development systems in the league.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Why didn't Keslers opinion change after Gillis was fired then?

Uh, the team was in disarray Kesler was not coming back. Not saying Kesler doesn't take his share of blame but it's ultimately a reflection of Gillis' inability to communicate a vision to his star players that led to Kesler getting so out of joint.

 

[MS]

Yep. This is the guy who watched Sbisa for 82 games (plus all the prior scouting) and thinks he's worth a regular spot on the team, let alone the contract he got. I have a hard time imagining that he can be so off-base with his pro scouting and somehow competent as an amateur scout.

Somehow some good years in Buffalo a decade ago and some comments about "being a scout at heart" has fooled many into believing that this guy is some draft guru.

Yup. The pro scouting here is the worst I've ever seen by an NHL team. Just atrocious. You can't be that bad at one type of scouting and some sort of genius in another. It's like saying someone is a terrible driver in a car but a great driver in a pickup truck.

He was one of the main point guys for Boston for nearly a decade, during which time they were probably the worst drafting team in the NHL. He is not a good scout. He just likes doing it lots. Much like Delorme.

 

[Ho Borvat]

This franchise needs to be built through the draft.

I'm excited about building through the draft and hopefully having one of the better scouting/drafting/development systems in the league.

This team has had 6 picks in the top-100 in the past 2 seasons.

Thats despite trading Kesler, Lack, Bieksa, Kassian, and Forsling.

I fail to see how we're "building through the draft"

Yup. The pro scouting here is the worst I've ever seen by an NHL team. Just atrocious. You can't be that bad at one type of scouting and some sort of genius in another. It's like saying someone is a terrible driver in a car but a great driver in a pickup truck.

He was one of the main point guys for Boston for nearly a decade, during which time they were probably the worst drafting team in the NHL. He is not a good scout. He just likes doing it lots. Much like Delorme.

As well, Benning's "bread and butter" is supposed to be the draft. His track record when it comes to negotiations, trades, and player valuations has been sub-par so for his tenure to be anything of a success, he needs to stock the cupboards.

Yet, he clearly places little value on accumulating draft picks. When you're a team "rebuilding on the fly" and unloading assets, you'd better get some draft picks along the way. Instead, we came out of last years draft with 2 picks in the top-100.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

your argument lacks nuance. The teams are in different places in the natural life cycle of hockey teams. The Sedins were drafted 2 decades ago. Benning shouldn't be looking to do the same things Gillis did to turn this into the one and done 2011 contender. We are in a different place now.

This franchise needs to be built through the draft.

By all accounts the entire scouting and ranking system has been dramatically altered since Gillis or even the Burke/Nonis years.

I'm excited about building through the draft and hopefully having one of the better scouting/drafting/development systems in the league.

And yet we are about to ice a team with only two rookies in the active roster and another entering his sophomore season likely behind an inferior player. How exactly isn't Benning still attempting to force a playoff model when we've filled nearly every slot with veterans? You can cite Higgins' injury as an opportunity, but that only furthers my issue. The only way rookies can get on this roster is if we have injuries. I guarantee once Higgins returns whomever took his spot will either be a healthy scratch or sent down to Utica.

I want to believe Willie would decide his lines based on merit, but I just cannot see him scratching Prust, Dorsett or Sbisa. If Vey is absolute garbage, maybe (and that's a strong maybe) they call up McCann.

 

[MS]

As well, Benning's "bread and butter" is supposed to be the draft. His track record when it comes to negotiations, trades, and player valuations has been sub-par so for his tenure to be anything of a success, he needs to stock the cupboards.

Yet, he clearly places little value on accumulating draft picks. When you're a team "rebuilding on the fly" and unloading assets, you'd better get some draft picks along the way. Instead, we came out of last years draft with 2 picks in the top-100.

... and we've already dealt our #2 pick next year for no reason.

The notion we need a 'great drafting GM' is just bizarre and an over-reaction to our recent drafting issues.

No, we don't. Almost no top teams have a GM that is in the forefront of their decision making at the draft. You just need a good head scout and a good staff. And that's what we were on track with before dumping Crawford.

Your GM builds your NHL roster and that should be almost his entire focus. To have a guy who is terrible at all that but doing a good job (that isn't his job) with scouting is completely backward, even assuming Benning could scout well, which he can't.

 

[Ho Borvat]

Your GM builds your NHL roster and that should be almost his entire focus. To have a guy who is terrible at all that but doing a good job (that isn't his job) with scouting is completely backward, even assuming Benning could scout well, which he can't.

Why do I just feel like we're going to give something of value to acquire Tinordi?...

 

[FroshaugFan2]

This team has had 6 picks in the top-100 in the past 2 seasons.

Thats despite trading Kesler, Lack, Bieksa, Kassian, and Forsling.

I fail to see how we're "building through the draft"

I also don't get it.

We made 7 picks in both of Benning's drafts and again have 7 picks in the next draft. Two of those drafts we downgraded our picks to acquire roster players. The only significant draft pick Benning has acquired was a late 1st for Kesler.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

... and we've already dealt our #2 pick next year for no reason.

The notion we need a 'great drafting GM' is just bizarre and an over-reaction to our recent drafting issues.

No, we don't. Almost no top teams have a GM that is in the forefront of their decision making at the draft. You just need a good head scout and a good staff. And that's what we were on track with before dumping Crawford.

Your GM builds your NHL roster and that should be almost his entire focus. To have a guy who is terrible at all that but doing a good job (that isn't his job) with scouting is completely backward, even assuming Benning could scout well, which he can't.

Case in point, two of the most successful drafting teams are Detroit and Montreal. The GM almost always defaults to his respective scouts when drafting, and never takes an active role save if there's some sort of split on who everyone likes. Speaking of, if we wanted a GM who has an exemplary drafting resume and some decent managerial skills, why the hell didn't we look at Trevor Timmins? Unlike Benning, you can actually point to results. This is the guy who drafted Carey Price despite everyone thinking the last thing Montreal needed was a goalie. Needless to say, it worked out pretty well.

 

[rypper]

And yet we are about to ice a team with only two rookies in the active roster and another entering his sophomore season likely behind an inferior player. How exactly isn't Benning still attempting to force a playoff model when we've filled nearly every slot with veterans? You can cite Higgins' injury as an opportunity, but that only furthers my issue. The only way rookies can get on this roster is if we have injuries. I guarantee once Higgins returns whomever took his spot will either be a healthy scratch or sent down to Utica.

I want to believe Willie would decide his lines based on merit, but I just cannot see him scratching Prust, Dorsett or Sbisa. If Vey is absolute garbage, maybe (and that's a strong maybe) they call up McCann.

The problem there is that at this point, McCann has beat out Vey for the 4th line center job (in my opinion.) Until Vey shows us something worthwhile he should be on the outside looking in, but we dont have the luxury of sending down and recalling McCann.

He's earned the spot now and should have it, but more then likely they'll send him back to the OHL and gift the spot to Vey.

And we'll have to sit through an entire season of the Prust - Vey - Dorsett. Everytime they're on the ice it'll go like this... faceoff loss by Vey, spend the shift in our zone chasing the puck resulting in either a) goal against or b) bad penalty by our meat & potatoes.

 

[fancouver]

Benning and Gillis are polar opposites. Both their agendas are quite obvious now, so it depends on the type of Canucks you want moving forward.

Gillis:
- modern, out-of the box thinking, finds ways to win (ie. sleep doctors, sports psychiatry, having guest speakers to motivate the room)
- Fast, skilled hockey
- Bargain bin champion (will not pay premium for 4th liners ie. Glass, Oreskovich, Bitz, Volpatti - all acquired for nearly nothing)
- excellent at trades, horrible at drafting
- will use high picks for skill (Hodgson over Beach)

Benning:
- old-school thinking, work hard, meat and potatoes
- want a team that can challenge anyone
- values leadership a lot more
- values grit and toughness a lot more (will pay premium for Dorsett and Prust)
- will pay premium for players that he targets (ie. Sutter, Miller)
- will use high picks for grit, physicality over skill (Virtanen over Nylander)
- excellent drafting so far, horrible trading due to above points

All in all, Benning isn't looking to win any deals, but building his team and getting whatever players he wants. So far, the results speak for itself. A 101 point team and a 2 out of 6 playoff wins. Whether this works out or not really requires time, but he's quickly falling out of favour.

For Gillis, he has the benefit of bringing the team to a cup final, but the last 2 years prior to his firing were a lot worst than the recent Canucks. A team that missed the playoffs with Torts, forced Kesler to be traded, and the goalie fiasco was quite embarassing. Not to mention, we went 1-9 in the playoffs past 2 years losing to LA and SJ. Change was needed.

It's easy to say, 'we want Gillis back', but try to relive the last 2 years right before he was fired and it made sense. Benning at the time was highly sought after and everyone on this board was...well..on board.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[banme*]

He was one of the main point guys for Boston for nearly a decade, during which time they were probably the worst drafting team in the NHL.

Almost no top teams have a GM that is in the forefront of their decision making at the draft. You just need a good head scout and a good staff.

Which one is it? Because that seems like a contradiction given Benning was the AGM in Boston, unless I'm missing a source that says he was very involved in Boston's draft selections.

 

[MS]

Which one is it? Because that seems like a contradiction given Benning was the AGM in Boston, unless I'm missing a source that says he was very involved in Boston's draft selections.

Benning was pretty clearly one of the main point guys in Boston.

Was an ex-scouting director and when you look at videos/reports of their drafting/scouting he's constantly one of the main guys quoted and put in front of the media. Very obvious he was highly involved.

 

[banme*]

Benning was pretty clearly one of the main point guys in Boston.

Was an ex-scouting director and when you look at videos/reports of their drafting/scouting he's constantly one of the main guys quoted and put in front of the media. Very obvious he was highly involved.

Eh this just seems like another one of those "**** Benning" things, similar to the perceived share of blame for the Seguin trade around here. He's done enough criticizable things as our GM that there's really no need to speculate about stuff like that to try to prove a point that may or may not be true, kind of cheap IMO.

 

[Samzilla]

Eh this just seems like another one of those "**** Benning" things, similar to the perceived share of blame for the Seguin trade around here. He's done enough criticizable things as our GM that there's really no need to speculate about stuff like that to try to prove a point that may or may not be true, kind of cheap IMO.

if by "perceived share of blame" you mean video-tape evidence...then yes

 

[banme*]

if by "perceived share of blame" you mean video-tape evidence...then yes

We're not doing this again

 

[RandV]

Which one is it? Because that seems like a contradiction given Benning was the AGM in Boston, unless I'm missing a source that says he was very involved in Boston's draft selections.

Being the GM is not the same thing as being the assistant GM. Knowing his preferences it's likely that Benning as AGM Benning was actively involved in Boston's drafting.

Point is GM's can delegate tasks, and what MS was pointing out is that a lot of successful GM's simply let the scouts do nearly all the work at the draft table. Doesn't mean it's always drafting that they delegate, for example Brian Burke used to have Dave Nonis do all the contract negotiations for resigning players when they were here.

Should also point out that GM's can also have different backgrounds themselves, so they can vary in where they choose to dedicate themselves. A GM that was a former agent will unlike Burke likely be heavily involved in contract negotiations. An agent that was a former scout/head scout will probably be a lot more involved in the draft. Moving away from Benning for a minute, while I'm on the topic I'd be interested in seeing how involved Jim Nill is with the draft in Dallas.

Either way, nothing wrong with MS' point there.

 

[Samzilla]

We're not doing this again

you brought it up again

 

[Pip]

How can you say that Benning has done an excellent job drafting.

It's too early to judge most picks and the Virtanen pick us already looking poor.

 

[Ryp37]

I just don't get how anyone can defend Benning at all, I'm guessing it will all change when the wheels fall off the bus this year

 

[VanillaCoke]

I just don't get how anyone can defend Benning at all, I'm guessing it will all change when the wheels fall off the bus this year

Itll be gillis fault for not drafting well or something....

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I just don't get how anyone can defend Benning at all, I'm guessing it will all change when the wheels fall off the bus this year

all but five posters here already have. but i would guess that those five will argue it to the death. just like famous high-volume posters here who spent years and years bashing the sedins, or bashing luongo, or bashing brian burke.

and on that note, you guys are just lucky i wasn't here yet during the WCE years. you would have been so annoyed by my incessant naslund bashing.