Jim Benning Era Transaction Summary | Mod warning in OP

[timw33]

You could go either way with Forsling/Clendening, but pure speculation here considering he was willing to dump Forsling that quickly to begin with it's a decent chance that had he not pulled that move he would have included Forsling in the Sutter/Bonino swap anyways.

That doesn't make it any better.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Kesler through to Sutter is so depressing when you sift through all the transaction lines. Forsling to Clendening to nothing. Bieksa to 2nd round pick to nothing. The whole thing is a master class in whittling down assets and tying down money needlessly. If there were a college class in how to be an NHL GM, Benning's chain of deals from Kesler to Sutter would be a study in what not to do.

 

[Peen]

Can add tryamkin leaving for free to this blunder list

 

[RobertKron]

Kesler through to Sutter is so depressing when you sift through all the transaction lines. Forsling to Clendening to nothing. Bieksa to 2nd round pick to nothing. The whole thing is a master class in whittling down assets and tying down money needlessly. If there were a college class in how to be an NHL GM, Benning's chain of deals from Kesler to Sutter would be a study in what not to do.

Not true! Forsling was eventually traded for Sutter's left shin. A foundational part of his body.

 

[TheWolf*]

Kesler through to Sutter is so depressing when you sift through all the transaction lines. Forsling to Clendening to nothing. Bieksa to 2nd round pick to nothing. The whole thing is a master class in whittling down assets and tying down money needlessly. If there were a college class in how to be an NHL GM, Benning's chain of deals from Kesler to Sutter would be a study in what not to do.

It's incredibly bad, and it's the reason they need to do something to stop him from another **** up this off season.

 

[timw33]

Kesler through to Sutter is so depressing when you sift through all the transaction lines. Forsling to Clendening to nothing. Bieksa to 2nd round pick to nothing. The whole thing is a master class in whittling down assets and tying down money needlessly. If there were a college class in how to be an NHL GM, Benning's chain of deals from Kesler to Sutter would be a study in what not to do.

I wonder if Mike Gillis teaches this curriculum in his sports management course at Uvic.

 

[Kryten]

I wonder if Mike Gillis teaches this curriculum in his sports management course at Uvic.

"The Be(gi)nning of the the end" chapter. Required reading as to what not do

 

[Tim McCracken]

Kesler through to Sutter is so depressing when you sift through all the transaction lines. Forsling to Clendening to nothing. Bieksa to 2nd round pick to nothing. The whole thing is a master class in whittling down assets and tying down money needlessly. If there were a college class in how to be an NHL GM, Benning's chain of deals from Kesler to Sutter would be a study in what not to do.

But you missed the part where Kelser exercised his contractual right and handcuffed the organization by giving them one team to realistically deal with.

Try needing a car, going to a dealership and saying "you're the only place I can deal with but need to buy a car as soon as possible" and see how generous of a deal you get. Sure they could have held out for, say, the pick that became Ritchie and Theodore but neither of those let alone both were forthcoming. Murray knew he didn't have to go there at any point. Or they could have sat on Kesler but good luck with that.

That's not to excuse the down-line asset mismanagement or the fact Benning signed Erickson to the worst UFA contract, maybe even the worst contract period, in franchise history.

 

[tyhee]

But you missed the part where Kelser exercised his contractual right and handcuffed the organization by giving them one team to realistically deal with.

Try needing a car, going to a dealership and saying "you're the only place I can deal with but need to buy a car as soon as possible" and see how generous of a deal you get. Sure they could have held out for, say, the pick that became Ritchie and Theodore but neither of those let alone both were forthcoming. Murray knew he didn't have to go there at any point. Or they could have sat on Kesler but good luck with that.

That's not to excuse the down-line asset mismanagement or the fact Benning signed Erickson to the worst UFA contract, maybe even the worst contract period, in franchise history.

1. The post you quoted didn't just deal with the Kesler trade itself but the movement of pieces from it, with the argument that eventually pieces were given away to be worth nothing (or close to it.)

2. As to Kesler's contractual right, his contractual right was not to be traded. He had a no trade clause.

If he wanted to be traded, there was nothing contractually to require the Canucks to trade him. They could have simply said "see you in training camp-unless you want to hold out and go without a pay cheque."

Now of course that may have gone over like a lead balloon, but unless the Canucks badly wanted to trade Kesler, the simple solution to his request for a trade to one of two teams was to say "unfortunately, Ryan, we can't get value from those two teams. Do you want to fulfill the rest of your contract here or are there other teams you'd like to see if we can make a deal with?"

They may have said something very much like that. Eventually Benning got an offer he felt he could live with. The player, though, had no contractual right to require that he be traded to a team of his choosing-on the contrary, his right was not to be traded at all. The team wasn't without some leverage.

Note that the leverage the player with a no trade clause has is much stronger when it is the team that wants to trade him (he can say no, I won't go unless I like the deal) than when it is the player who wants to move and the team is the one that can say, no won't trade you unless we like the deal. So the question becomes, how much did the Canucks want to get rid of him. Unless they desperately wanted him out, they had leverage.

 

[mathonwy]

There are many abilities / skills a person must possess to be successful in the role of general manager.

The ability to read a situation and understand how much leverage one has or does not have is probably amongst the top 3 if not top 1.

Understanding leverage and understanding how to create leverage is critical when one is facilitating high value transactions and Jimbo has shown time and time again, he is incapable of this type of thinking.

There is no such thing as Kesler "handcuffing" an organization. There is only negotiations and leverage and Kesler seized leverage because Jimbo is a weakminded individual. Kesler was still contractually obligated to the Canucks and anyone who thinks Kesler was going to sit out an entire season at age 30 because Jimbo wouldn't trade him is delusional.

Drouin made a similar demand to Stevie Y and Stevie Y told Drouin to go **** himself because Stevie Y is NOT a weakminded individual.

And having to take Sbisa in the trade?

Geezes christ.

Sbisa has been one of the biggest anchors on our d-core since he joined our team. He literally makes all of his partners worse while contributing nothing positive.

Luca the person is one of the nicest person ever and I wish him all the luck in the world but **** man, hockey is not about niceness. Hockey is about winning and losing and Luca has contributed a **** tonne to the losing culture of MY team.

I hate this situation so god damn much.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

But you missed the part where Kelser exercised his contractual right and handcuffed the organization by giving them one team to realistically deal with.

Try needing a car, going to a dealership and saying "you're the only place I can deal with but need to buy a car as soon as possible" and see how generous of a deal you get. Sure they could have held out for, say, the pick that became Ritchie and Theodore but neither of those let alone both were forthcoming. Murray knew he didn't have to go there at any point. Or they could have sat on Kesler but good luck with that.

That's not to excuse the down-line asset mismanagement or the fact Benning signed Erickson to the worst UFA contract, maybe even the worst contract period, in franchise history.

The Kesler deal was ONE deal. My problem is literally every other transaction in the chain that Benning's done since then has made the team worse and more expensive. And...oh yeah. The worst element in the original trade (Sbisa) is the only thing we kept. And gave a new contract to.

 

[Wo Yorfat]

Has there been a GM in any other sport who's had this type of negative impact on an organization in such a short period of time?

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Has there been a GM in any other sport who's had this type of negative impact on an organization in such a short period of time?

How long was Weisbrod GM of Orlando?

 

[Wo Yorfat]

Idk anything re NBA, just trying to figure out if there are any precedents for this degree of poor mgmt and if so, how long lasting was the damage.

 

[Tim McCracken]

There are many abilities / skills a person must possess to be successful in the role of general manager.

The ability to read a situation and understand how much leverage one has or does not have is probably amongst the top 3 if not top 1.

Understanding leverage and understanding how to create leverage is critical when one is facilitating high value transactions and Jimbo has shown time and time again, he is incapable of this type of thinking.

There is no such thing as Kesler "handcuffing" an organization. There is only negotiations and leverage and Kesler seized leverage because Jimbo is a weakminded individual. Kesler was still contractually obligated to the Canucks and anyone who thinks Kesler was going to sit out an entire season at age 30 because Jimbo wouldn't trade him is delusional.

Drouin made a similar demand to Stevie Y and Stevie Y told Drouin to go **** himself because Stevie Y is NOT a weakminded individual.

And having to take Sbisa in the trade?

Geezes christ.

Sbisa has been one of the biggest anchors on our d-core since he joined our team. He literally makes all of his partners worse while contributing nothing positive.

Luca the person is one of the nicest person ever and I wish him all the luck in the world but **** man, hockey is not about niceness. Hockey is about winning and losing and Luca has contributed a **** tonne to the losing culture of MY team.

I hate this situation so god damn much.

Except Drouin was a rookie with zero leverage and hadn't gone around the Olympics spreading that he wanted out and subsequently returned only to deny it and lie to his teammates and the fan base. Waiting Kelser out wasn't an option. He was already a polarizing personality who had been stripped of an "A" for a reason so better to just cleanse the team of the inevitable intensified toxicity. I'm sure there are those here that would have crucified the team either way but they clearly didn't get a good return.

The Kesler deal was ONE deal. My problem is literally every other transaction in the chain that Benning's done since then has made the team worse and more expensive. And...oh yeah. The worst element in the original trade (Sbisa) is the only thing we kept. And gave a new contract to.

Like I said, the down-line asset mismanagement is terrible and they got stuck having both Sbisa and what is almost the "Swedish Sbisa" in Edler on the same D corps for a few years. Pretty brutal.

 

[Bad Goalie]

Kesler through to Sutter is so depressing when you sift through all the transaction lines. Forsling to Clendening to nothing. Bieksa to 2nd round pick to nothing. The whole thing is a master class in whittling down assets and tying down money needlessly. If there were a college class in how to be an NHL GM, Benning's chain of deals from Kesler to Sutter would be a study in what not to do.

There actually is a college degree to be earned in Sports Management. You'd have to work your way up to Benning from there. It would take a lot of work and effort and a lot of luck to bypass the machine ahead of you. Getting in on the ground floor would be a necessary step to start you on your way. That would be some sort of management position in the minors and you'd go from there. I'm more than sure that guys like Benning and their moves are studied and/or end up in specific class lectures or student term papers. You decide which side of the ledger his moves are covered under.

 

[racerjoe]

Except Drouin was a rookie with zero leverage and hadn't gone around the Olympics spreading that he wanted out and subsequently returned only to deny it and lie to his teammates and the fan base. Waiting Kelser out wasn't an option. He was already a polarizing personality who had been stripped of an "A" for a reason so better to just cleanse the team of the inevitable intensified toxicity. I'm sure there are those here that would have crucified the team either way but they clearly didn't get a good return.



Like I said, the down-line asset mismanagement is terrible and they got stuck having both Sbisa and what is almost the "Swedish Sbisa" in Edler on the same D corps for a few years. Pretty brutal.

What about martin st louis he also had a 1 team NTC list and was much older and got a much better return. Good GM's will find a way. Even if not it was also the wrong type of package. Then even still as the original comment tried to point out look what those pieces then became.

 

[mathonwy]

Except Drouin was a rookie with zero leverage and hadn't gone around the Olympics spreading that he wanted out and subsequently returned only to deny it and lie to his teammates and the fan base. Waiting Kelser out wasn't an option. He was already a polarizing personality who had been stripped of an "A" for a reason so better to just cleanse the team of the inevitable intensified toxicity. I'm sure there are those here that would have crucified the team either way but they clearly didn't get a good return.

Yer talking in terms of how a fan would trade Ryan Kesler which (no offense) is the worst possible way to approach such a transaction.

And coincidentally, this is how Jimbo trades Canucks assets and this is why Jimbo gets shafted 99 times out of 100.

At the time of the transaction
- Kesler was under 30
- Kesler was still under contract for one more season at an extremely cost economical price of 5M. Thanks Gilly!
- Kesler had run into some bad luck injurywise but still was able to lead the Canucks in scoring with 25 goals.
- Anaheim had no 2nd line. The last time Anaheim had a 2nd line was when Selanne was still playing and at that point of time, they had old man Saku Koivu feeding Selanne.
- Anaheim was currently using Bonino as their 2C and Bonez is not a 2C. He's a 2C/3C tweener (and a damn good one!).

Now:
- Kesler remains one of the top defensive centers in the league and his consistent Selke nominations prove this.
- Kesler was, is and will continually to play like a dick and is the exact kinda guy that Montreal wishes Pacioretty could play like (maybe they should show some Kesler videos to him).
- Kesler is signed to a 6Y/41.25M contract which is the type of a contract foundational players get.

Kesler was an extremely valuable under 30 hockey asset that was signed for 1 more year on a very cap friendly contract and Anaheim desperately wanted him. End of story.
(there's probably also a pretty good ad stats argument surrounding Kesler)

I obviously don't have any problems getting Bonez and their 1st back but the positive gains from Bonez and that 1st are more than offset by how bad Sbisa was and continues to be.

Which means Jimbo gave Kesler away for free.

What's worst. Giving Kesler away for free? Or bribing Bergevin with draft picks and cap space to take Kassian?

Tough choice.

 

[Huggy]

Yer talking in terms of how a fan would trade Ryan Kesler which (no offense) is the worst possible way to approach such a transaction.

And coincidentally, this is how Jimbo trades Canucks assets and this is why Jimbo gets shafted 99 times out of 100.

At the time of the transaction
- Kesler was under 30
- Kesler was still under contract for one more season at an extremely cost economical price of 5M. Thanks Gilly!
- Kesler had run into some bad luck injurywise but still was able to lead the Canucks in scoring with 25 goals.
- Anaheim had no 2nd line. The last time Anaheim had a 2nd line was when Selanne was still playing and at that point of time, they had old man Saku Koivu feeding Selanne.
- Anaheim was currently using Bonino as their 2C and Bonez is not a 2C. He's a 2C/3C tweener (and a damn good one!).

Now:
- Kesler remains one of the top defensive centers in the league and his consistent Selke nominations prove this.
- Kesler was, is and will continually to play like a dick and is the exact kinda guy that Montreal wishes Pacioretty could play like (maybe they should show some Kesler videos to him).
- Kesler is signed to a 6Y/41.25M contract which is the type of a contract foundational players get.

Kesler was an extremely valuable under 30 hockey asset that was signed for 1 more year on a very cap friendly contract and Anaheim desperately wanted him. End of story.
(there's probably also a pretty good ad stats argument surrounding Kesler)

I obviously don't have any problems getting Bonez and their 1st back but the positive gains from Bonez and that 1st are more than offset by how bad Sbisa was and continues to be.

Which means Jimbo gave Kesler away for free.

What's worst. Giving Kesler away for free? Or bribing Bergevin with draft picks and cap space to take Kassian?

Tough choice.

But what if Vatanen and Ritchie were available and Franko said no go

 

[RandV]

At the time of the transaction
- Kesler was under 30
- Kesler was still under contract for one more season at an extremely cost economical price of 5M. Thanks Gilly!
- Kesler had run into some bad luck injurywise but still was able to lead the Canucks in scoring with 25 goals.
- Anaheim had no 2nd line. The last time Anaheim had a 2nd line was when Selanne was still playing and at that point of time, they had old man Saku Koivu feeding Selanne.
- Anaheim was currently using Bonino as their 2C and Bonez is not a 2C. He's a 2C/3C tweener (and a damn good one!).

I think this is a point that gets overlooked. Kesler could demand a trade and he could use his NTC to limit where he goes, but he was going to be playing for likely his last big contract here and his 2013-14 Canucks season wasn't the best. He needed to play ball with Vancouver if he wanted the best payout.

 

[mathonwy]

But what if Vatanen and Ritchie were available and Franko said no go

Then it could mean that we could possibly be effed for awhile which is what I've been feeling for quite some time already.

It could possibly mean that the Canucks have become the unofficial dumping grounds for bad players.

And if one were to consider this, they would also consider that FA is is playing politicks with the team and allowing all of this to happen.

A definite possibility one could say.

 

[VanJack]

I think a big part of the problem is that Jimbo trades for players based on what 'he thinks they can do" versus what "they've actually done".

Pretty obvious with the benefit of hindsight that Sutter is never going to be a 'foundational' centre, and Gudbranson just isn't a 'top-four" d-man on a competitive NHL team. But when Jimbo and Canucks gave up valuable picks and assets for them, that's what they claimed they'd be.

I'm OK with acquiring and then trying to project what 19-20 year-old kids like Goldobin and Dahlen might become....but guys who've in the league for five years, basically are what they are. And GM's like Tallon and Rutherford seem to get this and just wait to school a desperate GM like Benning.

 

[PM]

The Kesler to Sutter trade trees and all trades involved is the biggest reason we are where we are right now. Every step of that trade got worse and worse. Even the smaller more overlooked pieces like getting a 3rd back in the Kesler deal but then trading that for Dorsett and then giving him a ludicrous extension. Those trades left us with Sutter, Gudbranson, Dorsett and Sbisa and cost us Kesler, two 2nds (one very high), a 3rd, Forsling and possibly some other pieces I'm forgetting. We also more than doubled our used cap. Terrible trades for a rebuilding team, terrible trades for a playoff team, just terrible, terrible trades for anyone really. I wouldn't even trade just the picks (2nd, 2nd, 3rd) for that pile of junk.

On the other side, it helped the Pens to a cup and made Anaheim a much better playoff team.

 

[opendoor]

Yer talking in terms of how a fan would trade Ryan Kesler which (no offense) is the worst possible way to approach such a transaction.

And coincidentally, this is how Jimbo trades Canucks assets and this is why Jimbo gets shafted 99 times out of 100.

At the time of the transaction
- Kesler was under 30
- Kesler was still under contract for one more season at an extremely cost economical price of 5M. Thanks Gilly!
- Kesler had run into some bad luck injurywise but still was able to lead the Canucks in scoring with 25 goals.
- Anaheim had no 2nd line. The last time Anaheim had a 2nd line was when Selanne was still playing and at that point of time, they had old man Saku Koivu feeding Selanne.
- Anaheim was currently using Bonino as their 2C and Bonez is not a 2C. He's a 2C/3C tweener (and a damn good one!).

Now:
- Kesler remains one of the top defensive centers in the league and his consistent Selke nominations prove this.
- Kesler was, is and will continually to play like a dick and is the exact kinda guy that Montreal wishes Pacioretty could play like (maybe they should show some Kesler videos to him).
- Kesler is signed to a 6Y/41.25M contract which is the type of a contract foundational players get.

Kesler was an extremely valuable under 30 hockey asset that was signed for 1 more year on a very cap friendly contract and Anaheim desperately wanted him. End of story.
(there's probably also a pretty good ad stats argument surrounding Kesler)

I obviously don't have any problems getting Bonez and their 1st back but the positive gains from Bonez and that 1st are more than offset by how bad Sbisa was and continues to be.

Which means Jimbo gave Kesler away for free.

What's worst. Giving Kesler away for free? Or bribing Bergevin with draft picks and cap space to take Kassian?

Tough choice.

2 more years actually. He was signed until 2016.

 

[NoShowWilly]

The Kesler to Sutter trade trees and all trades involved is the biggest reason we are where we are right now. Every step of that trade got worse and worse. Even the smaller more overlooked pieces like getting a 3rd back in the Kesler deal but then trading that for Dorsett and then giving him a ludicrous extension. Those trades left us with Sutter, Gudbranson, Dorsett and Sbisa and cost us Kesler, two 2nds (one very high), a 3rd, Forsling and possibly some other pieces I'm forgetting. We also more than doubled our used cap. Terrible trades for a rebuilding team, terrible trades for a playoff team, just terrible, terrible trades for anyone really. I wouldn't even trade just the picks (2nd, 2nd, 3rd) for that pile of junk.

On the other side, it helped the Pens to a cup and made Anaheim a much better playoff team.

Ryan Kesler and Canucks 2015 3rd for Nick Bonino, Luca Sbisa, Anaheim 2014 1st, Anaheim 2014 3rd.
Anaheim 2014 3rd for Derek Dorsett
Canucks 2016 3rd and Alex Mallet for Andrey Pedan
Gustav Forsling for Adam Clendening
Re-sign Derek Dorsett(2.65m) and Luca Sbisa(3.6m)
Kevin Bieksa for Anaheim 2016 2nd
Nick Bonino, Anaheim 2016 2nd, Adam Clendening for Brandon Sutter and Canucks 2016 3rd
Re-signed Brandon Sutter(4.375m)
Jared Mccann, Canucks 2016 2nd(33rd overall), Canucks 2016 4th for Erik Gudbranson and Florida 2016 5th.

Out: Ryan Kesler, Kevin Bieksa, Gustav Forsling, Alex Mallet, Canucks 2015 3rd, Canucks 2016 2nd(33rd OA), Canucks 2016 4th

In: Brandon Sutter, Derek Dorsett, Luca Sbisa, Erik Gudbranson, Andrey Pedan, Florida 2016 5th.

Lost in the transactions: Jared Mccann, Nick Bonino, Adam Clendening, Anaheim 2014 3rd, Anaheim 2016 2nd

there is also the salaries of all these players.