Jets - General Rumour, Trade, Free Agent and Waiver Speculation 14-15 Part III

[Whileee]

Simply let the core age out while never making playoffs is certainly the best strategy I agree.



What?

It's like some people like to pretend that no team ever makes trades and we are asking something unreal here. Teams trade, make improvements, set goals and try to build winning teams. This is a real thing. Just because the Jets either refuse or are unable to take advantage of all the tools at their disposal doesn't make it some impossible thing.

No one is asking for change for the sake of change either. All "chevy haters" are asking for is SLIGHTEST bit of direction for the franchise rather than listlessly drifting year to year with no plan. Not that much to ask for.

Don't worry, I'll be bummed out if the Jets drift along for too long and don't use current core assets for trades before they become irrelevant. I just haven't reached the panic point yet because I believe the following:

1) There is still plenty of time to make the type of trade that really cements the Jets plan to build around their own young core through draft and develop.

2) There have been several mitigating factors that have likely constrained the trade market, particularly the salary cap. There have been very few major player for player trades of core players in the past couple of years, and some of them were necessitated by players needing / wanting out (e.g. Ryan, Kesler, Spezza).

 

[Whileee]

Doing nothing is not a plan. Never has been, never will be. It's doing nothing.

Nobody ever has/had to be moved. Just some sort of direction needed to implemented. If the Jets wanted to build around the core of guys they had, they needed to do that. If the Jets wanted to build for the future they needed to do that. Being paralyzed by inaction is WORSE than taking even bad action.

Please explain to me what the plan is that so expertly went right over my head? Rebuild with draft picks? Well, no we are not adding picks overall and in fact drafting less than average in key early rounds. Try to win now? Well no results speak for themselves.

There is no clear goal, no clear plan. This is a group that is getting awful close being torn apart and when you consider it takes 3-5 years PAST first making playoffs to win the cup it is basically impossible for this group to ever be any kind of threat.

I agree that the Jets should have hung onto the 2nd rounder instead of renting Seto. Terrible move, especially in retrospect.

....but it could have been worse, we could have been trying to rebuild with Faksa and Gauthier instead of Trouba and Morrissey.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

I agree that the Jets should have hung onto the 2nd rounder instead of renting Seto. Terrible move, especially in retrospect.

....but it could have been worse, we could have been trying to rebuild with Faksa and Gauthier instead of Trouba and Morrissey.

Nice try except Trouba was rated my #2 D and although one spot behind Faksa on my final rankings basically dead even. I just didn't think teams would be STUPID enough to let him drop to #9 or I would have been pushing him as hard as Faksa.

And again Gauthier was tied with Pulock and Mantha on my rankings. I also had Morrissey at 17, much higher than anywhere else.

Sigh, people only see what they want to see. It's now trendy to attack me for those while forgetting everything have at it, other than it not being true you have a point. Big centers with skill are still the most valuable commodity in the NHL.

 

[Whileee]

Nice try except Trouba was rated my #2 D and although one spot behind Faksa on my final rankings basically dead even. I just didn't think teams would be STUPID enough to let him drop to #9 or I would have been pushing him as hard as Faksa.

And again Gauthier was tied with Pulock and Mantha on my rankings. I also had Morrissey at 17, much higher than anywhere else.

Sigh, people only see what they want to see. It's now trendy to attack me for those while forgetting everything have at it, other than it not being true you have a point. Big centers with skill are still the most valuable commodity in the NHL.

I just found it surprising that you would critique the Jets drafting in the early rounds. There's plenty to criticize Chevy for, but nailing a string of 1st round picks outside of the top 5, and supplementing that with guys like Petan, Comrie, Kosmachuk, Lowry, Hellebuyck, Glover, etc. deserves some credit.

Other than Lukas Sutter, they haven't really missed a beat (and he surprised a few people with his face-plant).

I understand the skepticism, but I don't expect the Jets to clearly announce how they plan to carry out their strategy, and I do expect them to make some definitive moves with this core in due course. If I'm wrong about that, I'll be near the front of the line recommending Chevy's dismissal. I just don't think it's reached that stage yet.

As for those who wish that the Jets hadn't given Pavs a vote of confidence, I think it's much healthier to give Hutch the challenge of earning his first NHL starting position, and not putting the pressure on him all summer to be the #1 goalie. Telling the world that Hutch is #1 by buying Pavs out or announcing that he's been demoted would have been a poor approach, in my opinion. Maurice is not an idiot and I'm pretty sure he'll move away from Pavs as he falters. It could be as early as pre-season. He showed every sign late last season that he wasn't wedded to Pavs as the #1.

 

[jetkarma*]

Doing nothing is not a plan. Never has been, never will be. It's doing nothing.

Nobody ever has/had to be moved. Just some sort of direction needed to implemented. If the Jets wanted to build around the core of guys they had, they needed to do that. If the Jets wanted to build for the future they needed to do that. Being paralyzed by inaction is WORSE than taking even bad action.

Please explain to me what the plan is that so expertly went right over my head? Rebuild with draft picks? Well, no we are not adding picks overall and in fact drafting less than average in key early rounds. Try to win now? Well no results speak for themselves.

There is no clear goal, no clear plan. This is a group that is getting awful close being torn apart and when you consider it takes 3-5 years PAST first making playoffs to win the cup it is basically impossible for this group to ever be any kind of threat.

There is a definitively clear goal , you just don't agree with it . That's your choice , but you present nothing to change the reality that there is a plan .

The draft criticism becomes easier to see through as we progress with this plan. It isn't the way you believe we need to be to be effective , but are you saying you're unhappy , not satisfied with our drafting to date? Are we ineffective , or have done well drafting? Sure not final results and some still a ways away and to be determined but right now, today I think we have drafted not perfectly but very well. Especially for firsts where we look to have 4 core players and maybe something special , for more than one of them. Not limited to those four only , we have added depth and upside to a barren prospect pool. We are in a much stronger position for our 18 to 21 year old group. Provides a lot of strength , next year imo the flow through of several of this players to regulars , replacing weaker players . We've done well , maybe very well. We'll see but that was a plan and while it wasn't perfect of course I think it was done nicely , we've gone from the very bottom of prospect pools to inside the top ten and higher according to some. Sure it has to happen , but as it stands now hard to not say it isn't a positive , plus , at least to me that is an easy success.

We haven't traded any core players but there wasn't a need to imo . No pressure point , nothing that can't be worked with. Chevy's open but he isn't making that type of trade until he gets the right one , or the best one. I've said before and others have as well, the Jets can't lose that type of trade. To important for a franchise like this , so that we haven't isn't a negative to me , we've retained our upper end assets very well. Frolik is yet to be seen of course , but we've got a lot of players that would be coveted. At some point you are at decision time , but I don't think we gone past that yet.

I personally don't want to trade Kane , I think he's going to have a fantastic year , his value will be higher , he hasn't hit maximum value . We're not that old , we've got time to manipulate the roster, just let's do that when we get the deal we think is right. I don't think we've lost anything by not making a trade. We are still in control.

Hard to argue against the holding pattern for points and playoffs , but we are improving , not there yet , but this time next year I think we are where we want to be , a playoff team with legitimate reasons to think we will be getting better. Young base of plus players , solid veteran corp that could continue to play for years or be used to make a trade . That's what I believe the Jets are pointing toward like it or not , that's their plan , I quite like it , has to unfold that way of course , but I am thinking it does.

Of course , we need the goaltending situation to be a positive , anyway,anyhow , but we have an opportunity for a couple of our strong Goalie prospects to make that happen , maybe that is part of the plan too.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

I just found it surprising that you would critique the Jets drafting in the early rounds.

This never happened. I mean at all. We have made 7 selections in top 2 rounds in 4 drafts. Average is 8. Therefore we are drafting less than average.

For 4 years now it's the old, well if they don't change anything NEXT year it's a problem. Always NEXT year. Never a problem now, no no no.

 

[fmrdh]

Nice try except Trouba was rated my #2 D and although one spot behind Faksa on my final rankings basically dead even. I just didn't think teams would be STUPID enough to let him drop to #9 or I would have been pushing him as hard as Faksa.

And again Gauthier was tied with Pulock and Mantha on my rankings. I also had Morrissey at 17, much higher than anywhere else.

Sigh, people only see what they want to see. It's now trendy to attack me for those while forgetting everything have at it, other than it not being true you have a point. Big centers with skill are still the most valuable commodity in the NHL.

Where did you have Nurse?

 

[jetkarma*]

If Mark Scheifele turns out to be the third ranked of our first four first rounders we've done more than well.

It's better to have more picks but it is more important you don't miss imo . Someone not playing for a couple of years isn't a good pick . Scheifele, Trouba, Morrissey , Ehlers won't be like that ,imo.

Tough to criticize , it really is.

 

[meedle]

This never happened. I mean at all. We have made 7 selections in top 2 rounds in 4 drafts. Average is 8. Therefore we are drafting less than average.

For 4 years now it's the old, well if they don't change anything NEXT year it's a problem. Always NEXT year. Never a problem now, no no no.

Well, something will be done NEXT year.

If they don't, they lose laddy and buff for nothing. So we can pretty much guarantee something is going to happen. Ill say it again. Scheif and Trouba are up as well. One or both are going to sign a bridge or a long term like Kane. If it's long term we may not have cap space if someone isn't moved.

 

[Unholy goalie]

Well, something will be done NEXT year.

If they don't, they lose laddy and buff for nothing. So we can pretty much guarantee something is going to happen. Ill say it again. Scheif and Trouba are up as well. One or both are going to sign a bridge or a long term like Kane. If it's long term we may not have cap space if someone isn't moved.

Ya, what they do with Ladd and Buff, for me, will be a strong barometer for the direction this team will take. And, tbh, it'll be nice to see something different go on with this team. I can't wait for hockey to start again, but I'm dreading another mediocre season.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Nothing at all in your post suggests any kind of plan. In fact the closest thing I can see to a plan according to you is wait until our backs are right against the wall and panic. Which seems to be the directions Chevy is heading, so maybe you hit the nail right on the head jetkarma.

but are you saying you're unhappy , not satisfied with our drafting to date? Are we ineffective , or have done well drafting?

Never said I was unhappy with the quality. For the most part it seems for now to be alright. However Chevy is completely and utterly failing to maximize his chances and prospect pool. Many chances simply passed up. Fine if you are a competitive team. Not fine if the "plan" is to draft and develop, therefore we are either not drafting and developing or failing quite miserably at it.

We haven't traded any core players but there wasn't a need to imo . No pressure point , nothing that can't be worked with. Chevy's open but he isn't making that type of trade until he gets the right one , or the best one.

Because that's the only factor here. By not making any moves the Jets are artificially backing themselves into a corner. By refusing to make any moves he handcuffs himself. Who wants to come to a team with no direction. A rebuilding team you can sell the guy on being a core guy going forward with a new young team. With a competitive team you can sell them on the team. With a drifting team afraid to make any move? Why in hell would any player that had a choice (ie someone with a real choice not barely NHLers Stuart, Clitsome, Thorburn) re-sign here. You are already seeing it in Frolik. Chevy has backed himself into a corner now a core player with be lost (my bet is for nothing since Chevy is too afraid to make a move). This pattern is going to repeat itself with Ladd and Byfuglien in the next year or two.

Hard to argue against the holding pattern for points and playoffs , but we are improving , not there yet , but this time next year I think we are where we want to be , a playoff team with legitimate reasons to think we will be getting better. Young base of plus players , solid veteran corp that could continue to play for years or be used to make a trade . That's what I believe the Jets are pointing toward like it or not , that's their plan , I quite like it , has to unfold that way of course , but I am thinking it does.

So we are improving...by not improving? We are stuck in 2nd gear, going nowhere. This veteran core has failed for 4 straight years. Why is this going to magically change? Why are not helping them? Why are we not taking advantage of them rather than wasting their primes (be that in success or value). It's dumb and paralyzing.

Of course , we need the goaltending situation to be a positive , anyway,anyhow , but we have an opportunity for a couple of our strong Goalie prospects to make that happen , maybe that is part of the plan too.

Great so the plan is just to wait years and years and years (look at how easy it was to get Hutchinson for example, we could have Hutchinson + Greiss/Khudobin or any other number of quality g's) while simutaniously wasting years and years of core play from quality players. If that's the plan Chevy is the dumbest person on earth. Since I don't believe that to be true it cannot be the plan.

Face it ANY plan would have involved making a decision. Chevy has shown a complete aversion to making ANY kind of decision. Waiting and hoping that we can magically outdraft everyone while handcuffing the draft staff with less picks THEN hoping that those draft picks develop so fast as to make an immediate impact before the team is torn apart is a bad plan, so much as to say no plan at all.

 

[Whileee]

This never happened. I mean at all. We have made 7 selections in top 2 rounds in 4 drafts. Average is 8. Therefore we are drafting less than average.

For 4 years now it's the old, well if they don't change anything NEXT year it's a problem. Always NEXT year. Never a problem now, no no no.

Actually, the right metric is 6 in 3 years, since it's hard to hold Chevy accountable for draft picks accumulated for 2011 by the Thrashers' regime.

Expand it to 3 rounds and the Jets are above average - 10 in 3 years, including 5 in the first three rounds of what was reportedly the deepest draft (2013). Expand it to 4 rounds, and the Jets are +2 compared to average over the past 3 drafts. Granted, rounds 3 and 4 might be stretching it, but they did pick up some nice prospects, including:
Glover, De Leo, Lodge, Lipon, Copp, Kostalek, and Kosmachuk in the 3rd and 4th rounds of the past 3 years (and Adam Lowry in 2011).

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Where did you have Nurse?

18. #6 D. Behind Morrissey in fact. Very overrated, no hockey sense. Was so very glad Edmonton took him so we didn't.

 

[Whileee]

Where did you have Nurse?

#18, just behind Morrissey. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=65737543&postcount=453

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Actually, the right metric is 6 in 3 years, since it's hard to hold Chevy accountable for draft picks accumulated for 2011 by the Thrashers' regime.

Expand it to 3 rounds and the Jets are above average - 10 in 3 years, including 5 in the first three rounds of what was reportedly the deepest draft (2013). Expand it to 4 rounds, and the Jets are +2 compared to average over the past 3 drafts. Granted, rounds 3 and 4 might be stretching it, but they did pick up some nice prospects, including:
Glover, De Leo, Lodge, Lipon, Copp, Kostalek, and Kosmachuk in the 3rd and 4th rounds of the past 3 years (and Adam Lowry in 2011).

Right well then if you want to remove the previous stuff your back to 5 in 3 years (2013 was a 2008 pick that wasn't signed).

If you look at any rebuilding team in the post lockout era you will see we lag WELL behind in total picks and more importantly high picks during a "rebuilding" era. Being close to league average or 1 pick above matters not if you are trying to rebuild via draft.

 

[drumzan]

18. #6 D. Behind Morrissey in fact. Very overrated, no hockey sense. Was so very glad Edmonton took him so we didn't.

Me too. I was very happy with the Morrissey pick.

 

[Whileee]

Right well then if you want to remove the previous stuff your back to 5 in 3 years (2013 was a 2008 pick that wasn't signed).

If you look at any rebuilding team in the post lockout era you will see we lag WELL behind in total picks and more importantly high picks during a "rebuilding" era. Being close to league average or 1 pick above matters not if you are trying to rebuild via draft.

... a crucial point is that the Jets have accumulated their picks --> prospects without yet trading any of their core players. Most rebuilding teams have built their picks and prospect lists by trading away their core players. The Jets still have that card to play. If they are able to translate Buff and/or Ladd into 1st round picks and/or top prospects to supplement their developing core, they will be in the position to further strengthen their young core and pipeline.

You and others think that they will miss the window and squander that opportunity. I disagree. I think that there is a very good chance that we'll see a major player or two moved in the coming year (most likely at the trade deadline) to focus even more on the young core. The only thing that would prevent that would be a surprisingly strong season and real contention for the playoffs this year.

 

[jetkarma*]

It actually is kind of humorous to see the drafting being downplayed.

No sense in fretting over those that think we haven't drafted well , nor used the draft well.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

It actually is kind of humorous to see the drafting being downplayed.

No sense in fretting over those that think we haven't drafted well , nor used the draft well.

You do like to twist my words.

Jets SEEM to have drafted fine from where they have drafted (which is the scouting staff NOT Chevy and again only 2 guys have played in NHL to date so way too early).

The problem is the Jets have consistently failed to adopt a model for success IF they want to be a rebuilding team building through the draft. Standing pat and not giving your people the proper chances for longterm success is not a viable model.

 

[Whileee]

You do like to twist my words.

Jets SEEM to have drafted fine from where they have drafted (which is the scouting staff NOT Chevy and again only 2 guys have played in NHL to date so way too early).

The problem is the Jets have consistently failed to adopt a model for success IF they want to be a rebuilding team building through the draft. Standing pat and not giving your people the proper chances for longterm success is not a viable model.

Like it or not, Chevy has to be given some credit for drafting. He budgeted for and hired the scouting staff, and he surely had a large role in at least their early picks. He doubled the scouting staff from the Thrashers' era. Saying that Chevy shouldn't get credit for the quality of the team's drafting is just nonsense. Should we then not blame him for hiring a terrible coach? Should we blame the pro scouts and not Chevy for any bad trades?

Again, I think you are just jumping the gun too early. The Jets still have a very nice window to move core players for picks, prospects and young players. If they miss the window, I'll be the first to rake Chevy over the coals. In the meantime, the drafting and developing they have done so far has built a nice foundation.

I agree that trading a 2nd for Seto was a mistake, though I expect that he felt that Seto wouldn't be such a fire tire (who did?), and he could recoup a pick at the trade deadline. Maybe he could have gotten some sort of mid-round pick for Hainsey, or Jokinen, but it certainly seems as though it was a very soft market for those guys in retrospect.

 

[boanst]

... a crucial point is that the Jets have accumulated their picks --> prospects without yet trading any of their core players. Most rebuilding teams have built their picks and prospect lists by trading away their core players. The Jets still have that card to play. If they are able to translate Buff and/or Ladd into 1st round picks and/or top prospects to supplement their developing core, they will be in the position to further strengthen their young core and pipeline.

You and others think that they will miss the window and squander that opportunity. I disagree. I think that there is a very good chance that we'll see a major player or two moved in the coming year (most likely at the trade deadline) to focus even more on the young core. The only thing that would prevent that would be a surprisingly strong season and real contention for the playoffs this year.

This message has been around for awhile now, but gets weaker with every passing year as more fans see that their own personal "this is the year" window passes by.

 

[Bob E]

I agree, Holden.

If you plan to add to your team through a draft and develop strategy, then it seems more advantageous to have more early picks to increase your chances of one day adding nhl calibre players. But Chevy hasn't stockpiled picks to date, though, he seems to be adding late 2015 picks this summer. Possibly to try and move up in the draft if they have targeted a player or two, or simply adding more prospects to the cupboard.

I just don't see this team moving forward without another significant draft pick (or two) addition, in addition to Ehlers and Morrissey, and further depth at forward and d.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Like it or not, Chevy has to be given some credit for drafting. He budgeted for and hired the scouting staff, and he surely had a large role in at least their early picks. He doubled the scouting staff from the Thrashers' era. Saying that Chevy shouldn't get credit for the quality of the team's drafting is just nonsense. Should we then not blame him for hiring a terrible coach? Should we blame the pro scouts and not Chevy for any bad trades?

Again, I think you are just jumping the gun too early. The Jets still have a very nice window to move core players for picks, prospects and young players. If they miss the window, I'll be the first to rake Chevy over the coals. In the meantime, the drafting and developing they have done so far has built a nice foundation.

I agree that trading a 2nd for Seto was a mistake, though I expect that he felt that Seto wouldn't be such a fire tire (who did?), and he could recoup a pick at the trade deadline. Maybe he could have gotten some sort of mid-round pick for Hainsey, or Jokinen, but it certainly seems as though it was a very soft market for those guys in retrospect.

Fair enough, Chevy is the man in charge. Seems to have done a decent job drafting. Be nice if they could help the scouting staff out or do anything else though. Like it or not we are still at best below average in terms of prospect pools.

I keep hearing this, oh WHEN it goes bad I'll rake him over the coals. Every year this is said yet it's never ever too late. Just needs more time. Just a little more. Maybe just a little more.

For one, I could see the Seto disaster coming. I'm only somewhat connected to the hockey world and even I knew Seto no longer had any desire to play hockey his interests involved liquids and loud music much more so. Hard to believe Chevy didn't know about that, particularly just looking how his career has progressed.

My big problem with the Seto move though wasn't the move itself. It was it's complete inconsistency. We are a build through the draft build through the draft, nope let's toss away picks and go for it now. No now we are build through draft, that was nothing just ignore it now. No plan, Chevy is all over the place.

 

[meedle]

Like it or not, Chevy has to be given some credit for drafting. He budgeted for and hired the scouting staff, and he surely had a large role in at least their early picks. He doubled the scouting staff from the Thrashers' era. Saying that Chevy shouldn't get credit for the quality of the team's drafting is just nonsense. Should we then not blame him for hiring a terrible coach? Should we blame the pro scouts and not Chevy for any bad trades?

Again, I think you are just jumping the gun too early. The Jets still have a very nice window to move core players for picks, prospects and young players. If they miss the window, I'll be the first to rake Chevy over the coals. In the meantime, the drafting and developing they have done so far has built a nice foundation.

I agree that trading a 2nd for Seto was a mistake, though I expect that he felt that Seto wouldn't be such a fire tire (who did?), and he could recoup a pick at the trade deadline. Maybe he could have gotten some sort of mid-round pick for Hainsey, or Jokinen, but it certainly seems as though it was a very soft market for those guys in retrospect.

Only thing I'll say is I like the drafting, but you can't keep letting players go for nothing when you are in our position. You realize that maybe you don't get a 2nd but maybe you get a 3rd, 4th, 5th for hainsey, joker and others. You realize you can trade a 3/4/5 for a 2nd. Just don't like the asset management one bit.

Basically if you added dollar values to players, say 100k each. I bet you would have a different opinion about letting people walk out the door for nothing. Something is better than nothing.

 

[Whileee]

Fair enough, Chevy is the man in charge. Seems to have done a decent job drafting. Be nice if they could help the scouting staff out or do anything else though. Like it or not we are still at best below average in terms of prospect pools.

I keep hearing this, oh WHEN it goes bad I'll rake him over the coals. Every year this is said yet it's never ever too late. Just needs more time. Just a little more. Maybe just a little more.

For one, I could see the Seto disaster coming. I'm only somewhat connected to the hockey world and even I knew Seto no longer had any desire to play hockey his interests involved liquids and loud music much more so. Hard to believe Chevy didn't know about that, particularly just looking how his career has progressed.

My big problem with the Seto move though wasn't the move itself. It was it's complete inconsistency. We are a build through the draft build through the draft, nope let's toss away picks and go for it now. No now we are build through draft, that was nothing just ignore it now. No plan, Chevy is all over the place.

My last post here (you'll be happy to hear, no doubt).

I agree about Seto. I don't know what went on behind closed doors, but I think it was a bad move.

I have repeatedly stated that I completely understand why the Jets might not have moved a core player before now. The past two years have seen a very constrained trade market, mostly due to a tight cap situation for a large number of teams. The major trades we've seen have been mostly out of necessity, and therefore the return for top players has been mediocre. I really think that the best trade window for Buff or Ladd or Enstrom (or maybe even Kane or Bogo or Enstrom) is the upcoming trade deadline. That would allow a contender to have Buff or Ladd for two full playoff seasons prior to UFA, teams will have more cap space, and they will have a firmer fix on the likely value of 2015 first round picks.

I'm not going to engage in hand-wringing at this stage. I'm going to focus on enjoying the season with my family.