Post-Game Talk: Jets 4 - Mild 2

[Jet]

Good lord...Stanley's been given so much rope it's not even funny. The dude's absolute ceiling is a 6th defenseman, but we spent good draft picks on him and coaches are horny for size, so he gets chance after chance after chance. If he's 6'2" he doesn't get a f***ing sniff in the NHL. People see 10 games where he's sheltered and doesn't get absolutely turnstiled and they turn into the Tobias Funke "Maybe it'll work for us!" meme...

You think Stanley has been given rope this year? I disagree. I think a lot of Heinola fanboys hate him because they think he blocked the golden childs shot, and now loathe to give him any credit at all.

I didn't say we should or shouldn't do anything with Stanley. I just did a comparison between his career progression and Chara's - and how Chara was given every opportunity - more than anyone probably should have to become something and he did.

I'm sure Ottawa fans were screaming bloody murder about Chara's first few seasons, because he was bad. Like f***ing really bad.

I didn't decide to dress Stanley, ever. I was trying to look at it objectively but some people seem to be too goddamned invested in something they have no control of to have a discussion about it.

You keep on hating Stanley, fill yer boots. I'll cheer for whatever player throws on a Jets jersey and hope for the best for them.

The Chara comp is silly, there is one Chara and 1000's of big dmen who fell well short of him. It was always a pipe dream scenario.

I don't think we can actually argue about how it would be with a different org. This org has done almost everything they can to make it work with him here.

Now perhaps he's finally ready to seize a spot full time. He brings this play next year and he likely has that bottom pairing spot.

I probably shouldn't have said Charas name because it gets people all whipped up into a frenzy feeling their feels. There are lots and lots of examples of defensemen who were late bloomers. Hell, even Morrissey can be considered somewhat of a late bloomer.

But, I said Chara and instead of people reading my theory they fly off the handle like I kicked their dog or something.

 

[WolfHouse]

You think Stanley has been given rope this year? I disagree. I think a lot of Heinola fanboys hate him because they think he blocked the golden childs shot, and now loathe to give him any credit at all.

I didn't say we should or shouldn't do anything with Stanley. I just did a comparison between his career progression and Chara's - and how Chara was given every opportunity - more than anyone probably should have to become something and he did.

I'm sure Ottawa fans were screaming bloody murder about Chara's first few seasons, because he was bad. Like f***ing really bad.

I didn't decide to dress Stanley, ever. I was trying to look at it objectively but some people seem to be too goddamned invested in something they have no control of to have a discussion about it.

You keep on hating Stanley, fill yer boots. I'll cheer for whatever player throws on a Jets jersey and hope for the best for them.

We exposed Demelo in the expansion draft over Stanley... I'd say that's rope haha - can you imagine how bad this team would be???

It's also fair to say he blocked Samberg for a season or more until the team couldn't say no to Samberg anymore... then add kova and Chisholm who we didn't even look at

He's had four seasons of rope - and was given a spot rather than earned it... maybe that didn't help him...

But now I'm cheering for him after what a half dozen good games...? Being a fan is strange

 

[Gm0ney]

You think Stanley has been given rope this year? I disagree. I think a lot of Heinola fanboys hate him because they think he blocked the golden childs shot, and now loathe to give him any credit at all.

I didn't say we should or shouldn't do anything with Stanley. I just did a comparison between his career progression and Chara's - and how Chara was given every opportunity - more than anyone probably should have to become something and he did.

I'm sure Ottawa fans were screaming bloody murder about Chara's first few seasons, because he was bad. Like f***ing really bad.

I didn't decide to dress Stanley, ever. I was trying to look at it objectively but some people seem to be too goddamned invested in something they have no control of to have a discussion about it.

You keep on hating Stanley, fill yer boots. I'll cheer for whatever player throws on a Jets jersey and hope for the best for them.


I probably shouldn't have said Charas name because it gets people all whipped up into a frenzy feeling their feels. There are lots and lots of examples of defensemen who were late bloomers. Hell, even Morrissey can be considered somewhat of a late bloomer.

But, I said Chara and instead of people reading my theory they fly off the handle like I kicked their dog or something.

Ottawa fans were mad about Chara's first few seasons with the Isles, you mean? They didn't like him as a return for Yashin? Because Chara was great the moment he arrived in Ottawa. He and Wade Redden were both #1 defensemen at 24...and Ottawa could only sign one of them...and they made the wrong choice and picked Redden.

Plus/Minus is a flawed stat and all, but Chara led all NHL defensemen with a +92 over his three seasons in Ottawa. Lidstrom was next at a +72. Chara was 27th in NHL defensemen scoring during that period as well.

Stanley's turning 26 next month...

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I think the big difference between Stanley and Chara is the teams they played on. Chara got a lot of reps on a pretty bad Senator team, and Stanley has been in and out of the lineup, playing a 6th d role, along with the minutes.

Not to say Stan would do more if he would have gotten the same opportunities as Chara did - but it is worth noting.


Again, I have no idea what Stan's ceiling is, but just to be devils advocate - Chara wasn't Chara, until he was. He was pretty gawdawful for his first few seasons.

I think Stan is pretty close to his peak now - but I could be wrong.

Who knows? Maybe spot play, lots of practice and watching from the PB has been good instruction for Stan. Probably not, but it could be.

Whatever, Stan has played pretty well for a few games. Good news all around. What happens next is anyone's guess.

 

[WolfHouse]

Ottawa fans were mad about Chara's first few seasons with the Isles, you mean? They didn't like him as a return for Yashin? Because Chara was great the moment he arrived in Ottawa. He and Wade Redden were both #1 defensemen at 24...and Ottawa could only sign one of them...and they made the wrong choice and picked Redden.

Plus/Minus is a flawed stat and all, but Chara led all NHL defensemen with a +92 over his three seasons in Ottawa. Lidstrom was next at a +72. Chara was 27th in NHL defensemen scoring during that period as well.

Stanley's turning 26 next month...

Yeah ottawa and Boston both wanted chara from the isles... he was never a bust just underutilized on a bad team

I'd say chara parallels Samberg more than Stan... in other words put Samberg on the powerplay

 

[Buffdog]

Not to turn this into a Ville discussion...

But I'd say that his showing early into his career (prior to this preseason) were as bad or worse than Stanley's (although his games were played when he was much younger than Stanley's first games)

There seems to be some weird reverse discrimination against Logan because of his size, and corresponding weird favoritism towards Heinola because of his skill shown at lower levels

At the end of the day, they both need to prove themselves at the NHL level. Stan's been given opportunities but he's also been sat for periods of time to the point where he's allegedly asked for a trade

Ville had 13 games in the NHL by the end of his D+2 season, 25 by the end of his D+3 year and 35 by the end of his D+4 year.

Stanley didn't get a single game until his D+5 season

 

[MardyBum]

Not to turn this into a Ville discussion...

But I'd say that his showing early into his career (prior to this preseason) were as bad or worse than Stanley's (although his games were played when he was much younger than Stanley's first games)

There seems to be some weird reverse discrimination against Logan because of his size, and corresponding weird favoritism towards Heinola because of his skill shown at lower levels

At the end of the day, they both need to prove themselves at the NHL level. Stan's been given opportunities but he's also been sat for periods of time to the point where he's allegedly asked for a trade

Ville had 13 games in the NHL by the end of his D+2 season, 25 by the end of his D+3 year and 35 by the end of his D+4 year.

Stanley didn't get a single game until his D+5 season

Get back to me when Ville gets gifted a season with Demelo on the third pair facing nothing comp. Ville had more games because he could skate at an NHL level. Stanley has taken years to get there. Maybe this is now his Chara transformation as the 6'7 goofball turns into the Norris winner. Or he just had a few great games like Sbisa, Beaulieu, and every other elite vet that has been pushed as a great contributor.

Maybe he's finally turned a corner, in which case maybe you guys should spend a little less time crying about Ville, he has 3 more years yet!

 

[Buffdog]

Get back to me when Ville gets gifted a season with Demelo on the third pair facing nothing comp. Ville had more games because he could skate at an NHL level. Stanley has taken years to get there. Maybe this is now his Chara transformation as the 6'7 goofball turns into the Norris winner. Or he just had a few great games like Sbisa, Beaulieu, and every other elite vet that has been pushed as a great contributor.

Maybe he's finally turned a corner, in which case maybe you guys should spend a little less time crying about Ville, he has 3 more years yet!

You missed the point of my post

Sure Ville is a great skater, but he lacked the physical strength to be effective earlier in his career. Stanley lacked the skating but had the size

Heinola's ceiling is higher than Stanley's. He's now in his D+5 season and he hasn't shown more than Stanley did - up to this point.

Moving forward, I'll expect him to be the better player

Not sure how you can get "crying about Ville" out of my post. All I said was that he got more opportunities with the Jets early in his carreer than Stanley did, which is just a fact. Hopefully moving forward they create a spot in the line up for him and he takes it and runs with it. I think he'll be a solid 2nd-pairing Dman who can QB powerplay. Stanley seems more like a bottom pairing guy who might be able to tread water on the second pairing for short periods of time

 

[LowLefty]

I think we will be doing well if Stan makes his recent play the norm. That would make him a perfectly viable 3rd pair Dman. I still don't see Chara 2.0 in him. I doubt he can become a viable 2nd pair man. But I would be quite happy if he could bump Snerg up to the 2nd pair when Dillon leaves, which I think is probable at this point.

I honestly don't know where his ceiling is - but I'd like to see him continue to improve so that we get a better idea.
This is another way of saying, I don't have him pegged yet - he might continue to surprise some.
I can also see the possibility of him surpassing Samberg - much like Samberg did to him when he was down with injuries.
One thing I know for sure - I can't see the future but will remain optimistic.
Here's the thing - most on here didn't seem him beyond an 8th spot or PB - and I think that has now changed - so I have no reason to feel he is done improving.

 

[WolfHouse]

You missed the point of my post

Sure Ville is a great skater, but he lacked the physical strength to be effective earlier in his career. Stanley lacked the skating but had the size

Heinola's ceiling is higher than Stanley's. He's now in his D+5 season and he hasn't shown more than Stanley did - up to this point.

Moving forward, I'll expect him to be the better player

Not sure how you can get "crying about Ville" out of my post. All I said was that he got more opportunities with the Jets early in his carreer than Stanley did, which is just a fact. Hopefully moving forward they create a spot in the line up for him and he takes it and runs with it. I think he'll be a solid 2nd-pairing Dman who can QB powerplay. Stanley seems more like a bottom pairing guy who might be able to tread water on the second pairing for short periods of time

We are all arguing a similar point from different angles and missing the real point...

Nate Beaulieu and nate schmidt were the duds blocking other players - we were going nowhere in that 2020-2022 Era

Stan couldn't cut it so instead of bringing in heinola or kova etc we overpaid for Schmidt

We kept booboo on the roster because he blocked shots and played with sand

I also think they delayed heinola because of the kraken draft iirc no?

I honestly don't know where his ceiling is - but I'd like to see him continue to improve so that we get a better idea.
This is another way of saying, I don't have him pegged yet - he might continue to surprise some.
I can also see the possibility of him surpassing Samberg - much like Samberg did to him when he was down with injuries.
One thing I know for sure - I can't see the future but will remain optimistic.
Here's the thing - most on here didn't seem him beyond an 8th spot or PB - and I think that has now changed - so I have no reason to feel he is done improving.

There is literally zero chance he surpasses Samberg in a logical world

 

[LowLefty]

Good lord...Stanley's been given so much rope it's not even funny. The dude's absolute ceiling is a 6th defenseman, but we spent good draft picks on him and coaches are horny for size, so he gets chance after chance after chance. If he's 6'2" he doesn't get a f***ing sniff in the NHL. People see 10 games where he's sheltered and doesn't get absolutely turnstiled and they turn into the Tobias Funke "Maybe it'll work for us!" meme...

Nobodies propping Stan up on some sort of pedestal -
For the most part, he is hammered around here - so I don't get it when a few fans come out and give him a pat on the back, that there is a need to step in and point out how lucky he's been.
If a player is playing well, what's the point in pressing on with how he was in the past, or the opportunities he's had, and how bad the org f##ked up when they drafted him? I don't get it. It's almost like if you're not shitting on this guy, you should keep your mouth shut.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I honestly don't know where his ceiling is - but I'd like to see him continue to improve so that we get a better idea.
This is another way of saying, I don't have him pegged yet - he might continue to surprise some.
I can also see the possibility of him surpassing Samberg - much like Samberg did to him when he was down with injuries.
One thing I know for sure - I can't see the future but will remain optimistic.
Here's the thing - most on here didn't seem him beyond an 8th spot or PB - and I think that has now changed - so I have no reason to feel he is done improving.

None of us has a crystal ball that actually works. Many things are possible. Much fewer are likely.

I'm not saying that he won't improve at all, but I don't expect much more than what we have seen recently. And that will be enough for me. A solid 3rd pair LD who brings a little physicality will make me quite happy.

That would allow Dillon to walk, which I think is his plan. Our left side would still be a plus with JMo, Snerg and Stan.

That said, I have been wanting to see him traded while he still has some value. That could still be in his near future if Dillon is retained. But recent play will have increased his market value. So win/win.

 

[Buffdog]

We are all arguing a similar point from different angles and missing the real point...

Nate Beaulieu and nate schmidt were the duds blocking other players - we were going nowhere in that 2020-2022 Era

Stan couldn't cut it so instead of bringing in heinola or kova etc we overpaid for Schmidt

We kept booboo on the roster because he blocked shots and played with sand

I also think they delayed heinola because of the kraken draft iirc no?


There is literally zero chance he surpasses Samberg in a logical world

I don't think that Ville and Logan's development timelines coincide with blocking prospects. Beaulieu was brought in in 2018 when Stanley was still in juniors and before Ville was even drafted

Schmidt was brought in 2021. I guess you could argue that Stanley could have somehow played his off-side that season. Kovacevic hadn't shown anything at that point that would indicate that he was ready for regular NHL action

People around here hitched about Sbisa and Beauliau, and then chevy went out and got Dillon and Schmidt. In his first season, Nate put up 32 points. He fell off the next year.

That 2021-22 team was built to compete. They had schief, PLD, Stats and Lowry down the middle (stats ended up on the wing in the top 6 IIRC). That's not the time to bring in a guy like kovy who had 14 points in the AHL the previous season. Chevy needed proven vets and got them

 

[WolfHouse]

I don't think that Ville and Logan's development timelines coincide with blocking prospects. Beaulieu was brought in in 2018 when Stanley was still in juniors and before Ville was even drafted

Schmidt was brought in 2021. I guess you could argue that Stanley could have somehow played his off-side that season. Kovacevic hadn't shown anything at that point that would indicate that he was ready for regular NHL action

People around here hitched about Sbisa and Beauliau, and then chevy went out and got Dillon and Schmidt. In his first season, Nate put up 32 points. He fell off the next year.

That 2021-22 team was built to compete. They had schief, PLD, Stats and Lowry down the middle (stats ended up on the wing in the top 6 IIRC). That's not the time to bring in a guy like kovy who had 14 points in the AHL the previous season. Chevy needed proven vets and got them

Heinola could have played his offside instead of trotting out Beaulieu... or given him a late season shot instead of Jordie benn

Dillon was the right move - Schmidt never seemed like the right fit to me... especially after giving pionk - a carbon copy of Schmidt a massive raise...

Regardless the only thing that blocked heinola this year was his ankle so moot point

 

[Gm0ney]

Nobodies propping Stan up on some sort of pedestal -
For the most part, he is hammered around here - so I don't get it when a few fans come out and give him a pat on the back, that there is a need to step in and point out how lucky he's been.
If a player is playing well, what's the point in pressing on with how he was in the past, or the opportunities he's had, and how bad the org f##ked up when they drafted him? I don't get it. It's almost like if you're not shitting on this guy, you should keep your mouth shut.

I was just astounded by the notion that someone thought Stanley wasn't given a fair shake.

He's fine as a 6th-8th defenseman I guess. I've never really had anything bad to say about him aside from him being a living, breathing sunk cost fallacy for the organization.

 

[Jet]

Ottawa fans were mad about Chara's first few seasons with the Isles, you mean? They didn't like him as a return for Yashin? Because Chara was great the moment he arrived in Ottawa. He and Wade Redden were both #1 defensemen at 24...and Ottawa could only sign one of them...and they made the wrong choice and picked Redden.

Plus/Minus is a flawed stat and all, but Chara led all NHL defensemen with a +92 over his three seasons in Ottawa. Lidstrom was next at a +72. Chara was 27th in NHL defensemen scoring during that period as well.

Stanley's turning 26 next month...

My apologies, I got his islander and senator times mixed up.

 

[KingBogo]

Again a deflection - it's always the same, man...

I don't think either Chisholm or Stan are top pairing... Chisholm WAS their top pairing last night - this is something that Stan will likely never pull off

I'm a huge Barron fan but following your logic I'd be arguing he should be on the 2nd line over perfetti... can't just pluck fancy stats from one game to make your point

But like I said before I would start stan-samberg for game one...because I'm sure your next move is calling me a hater

I've never called anyone a hater. In all honesty I mostly just ignore you, I'm kind of kicking myself for trying to engage in a discussion.

 

[LowLefty]

I was just astounded by the notion that someone thought Stanley wasn't given a fair shake.

He's fine as a 6th-8th defenseman I guess. I've never really had anything bad to say about him aside from him being a living, breathing sunk cost fallacy for the organization.

He's received a ton of support from the Jets - they desperately want him to work out as a long term Jet Dman - and yes, it's primarily because of his size.

The Jet org probably looks at his career a bit differently than you do - the payoff of having a guy this size on the blue line, is huge - and since we are where we are with him, why not try to make the best of it?

The good news is, he's probably better now than the majority on here thought he ever would be.
The argument a few weeks ago was he'd never be a starter - PB bound for life. Now some can potentially see him as a 6 - baby steps. Because in the end, it doesn't matter what happened on draft day or over his career up to this point - now it's about what could be ahead and there has been progress - and that should be a good thing.

 

[Jet]

He's received a ton of support from the Jets - they desperately want him to work out as a long term Jet Dman - and yes, it's primarily because of his size.

The Jet org probably looks at his career a bit differently than you do - the payoff of having a guy this size on the blue line, is huge - and since we are where we are with him, why not try to make the best of it?

The good news is, he's probably better now than the majority on here thought he ever would be.
The argument a few weeks ago was he'd never be a starter - PB bound for life. Now some can potentially see him as a 6 - baby steps. Because in the end, it doesn't matter what happened on draft day or over his career up to this point - now it's about what could be ahead and there has been progress - and that should be a good thing.

Yup, if you're truly a Jets fan I can't see any reason why you'd be upset that Stanley is finally starting to show some real promise.

Any of our players working out is a great thing for the org.

 

[GNP]

Iafallo was always a stand out in LA come playoff time to me. He tormented the Oilers and was one of the names I regularly heRd the announcers call out while watching. I think he is the exact type of player you want on the forecheck come playoff time. I feel it would be silly to sit him.

You may very well be right on this ? don't know for sure. I listen to a lot of the games on the radio, and watch the highlights after. I also did not follow LA last year. You could be very well right on Iafallo, and I guess we'll soon see what Bowness thinks.

 

[Jets 31]

Yup, if you're truly a Jets fan I can't see any reason why you'd be upset that Stanley is finally starting to show some real promise.

Any of our players working out is a great thing for the org.

Stanley sucks . Just thought we could use a giggle. I would love if Stanley plays well enough that Schmidt is our 7th defenseman , that's great depth for the playoffs.

 

[Buffdog]

I was just astounded by the notion that someone thought Stanley wasn't given a fair shake.

He's fine as a 6th-8th defenseman I guess. I've never really had anything bad to say about him aside from him being a living, breathing sunk cost fallacy for the organization.

Why is he a sunk cost fallacy? Because the org didn't put him on waivers and give him a way for nothing or trade him for a 5th round pick when he was slow to develop?

At what point is that no longer true? 200 NHL games? 300?

I guess they could have gone the Vesalainan route with him and you'd have been happier

Again, rando internet poster knows how to handle the development of a young NHL player better than an NHL organization that is filled with people who dedicate their lives to it

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

You missed the point of my post

Sure Ville is a great skater, but he lacked the physical strength to be effective earlier in his career. Stanley lacked the skating but had the size

Heinola's ceiling is higher than Stanley's. He's now in his D+5 season and he hasn't shown more than Stanley did - up to this point.

Moving forward, I'll expect him to be the better player

Not sure how you can get "crying about Ville" out of my post. All I said was that he got more opportunities with the Jets early in his carreer than Stanley did, which is just a fact. Hopefully moving forward they create a spot in the line up for him and he takes it and runs with it. I think he'll be a solid 2nd-pairing Dman who can QB powerplay. Stanley seems more like a bottom pairing guy who might be able to tread water on the second pairing for short periods of time

Except that Ville has shown a lot more than Stan had at the same age. He has excelled at lower levels, which Stan never did.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

You may very well be right on this ? don't know for sure. I listen to a lot of the games on the radio, and watch the highlights after. I also did not follow LA last year. You could be very well right on Iafallo, and I guess we'll soon see what Bowness thinks.

The thing is that that is the Iafallo of previous years. Maybe he has lost something. But it would be nice if he could step it up for the PO. We'll soon see.

 

[WolfHouse]

Why is he a sunk cost fallacy? Because the org didn't put him on waivers and give him a way for nothing or trade him for a 5th round pick when he was slow to develop?

At what point is that no longer true? 200 NHL games? 300?

I guess they could have gone the Vesalainan route with him and you'd have been happier

Again, rando internet poster knows how to handle the development of a young NHL player better than an NHL organization that is filled with people who dedicate their lives to it

Trouble is nhl organizations are filled with people who dedicate their lives to it - and may not see eye to eye... like chevys pr3sser about giving heinola a late season shot and then Maurice never playing him...

I've never called anyone a hater. In all honesty I mostly just ignore you, I'm kind of kicking myself for trying to engage in a discussion.

Man, you are a piece of work haha... pick a fight over a nothing comment, back it up with a meaningless stat and then resort to insults. It's the same pattern over and over. Enjoy your evening.