Bryanbryoil
Pray For Ukraine
- Sep 13, 2004
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Player Discussion Jesse Puljujärvi | His Mouth Contain His Tongue Only When He Eats Pizza
- Thread starter Soli
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HockeyHistorian
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- Mar 17, 2015
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I think that many skilled players are lost because they are forced to play more like a grinder and never really having a chance to prove themselves in an offensive role. I don't believe in "paying your dues" or whatever. Put a player in a position to succeed. If he still fails, then you know what you have.
So... lets say we drafted Johnny Gaudreau.
We bury him on the 3rd line and tell him to work on his defense? Add muscle and physicality... learn some better boardwork and grind.
If he can't elevate Strome and Khaira, he doesn't deserve more ice time.
Also, no PP time, and if he does, we give him limited looks as our front of net presence. If he can't cut it in a situation not tailored for his skills we take him off?
Am I really to believe this is how you develop Johnny Gaudreau?
What about Patrick Kane? Did he need to win board battles, understand defensive coverage, and learn a 200 foot game before being given ice time?
We bury him on the 3rd line and tell him to work on his defense? Add muscle and physicality... learn some better boardwork and grind.
If he can't elevate Strome and Khaira, he doesn't deserve more ice time.
Also, no PP time, and if he does, we give him limited looks as our front of net presence. If he can't cut it in a situation not tailored for his skills we take him off?
Am I really to believe this is how you develop Johnny Gaudreau?
What about Patrick Kane? Did he need to win board battles, understand defensive coverage, and learn a 200 foot game before being given ice time?
I bet they spoke English pretty well though
For real though, I couldn't agree more. All these people claiming he needs to work his way up the lineup.. what's the worst that could happen giving him a top 6 spot and a pp role? Best case, he takes it and runs with it. Worst case, he spends a month there and leaves little doubt that he currently can't handle that responsibility and perhaps never will.
However Todd's more worried about getting his 6million dollar anchor going, and developing the ever evolving talent of cagguila Strome and rattie.
If they don't give him a fair shake this year, I'm gonna call the Jp experiment over and chalk it up to another prospect ruined by the oilers.
oilynutz
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- Dec 30, 2007
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I bet they spoke English pretty well though
For real though, I couldn't agree more. All these people claiming he needs to work his way up the lineup.. what's the worst that could happen giving him a top 6 spot and a pp role? Best case, he takes it and runs with it. Worst case, he spends a month there and leaves little doubt that he currently can't handle that responsibility and perhaps never will.
However Todd's more worried about getting his 6million dollar anchor going, and developing the ever evolving talent of cagguila Strome and rattie.
If they don't give him a fair shake this year, I'm gonna call the Jp experiment over and chalk it up to another prospect ruined by the oilers.
If Yamamoto doesn't break out this year is he another prospect ruined?
Burnt Biscuits
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- May 2, 2010
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That is such a false equivalency, Johnny Gaudreau and Patrick Kane had S tier puck skills the second they landed in the NHL, they were also highly elusive, evaded checks extremely well, had high end offensive IQ, and could regularly find or make the time and space to make magic happen. In no way shape or form is our coaching staff suppressing a talent of that level, you can watch a player of that talent level for 5 minutes and know exactly what role they should have and how to deploy them; more over each had the talent that even if put in a 3rd line role they would carry their line and produce sufficient offense to bully there way further up the line-up. Pulju is not of the Kane/Gaudreau mold and quite frankly never will be, he isn't some waterbug tap-dancing on defenders out there. Pulju has a few slick dekes that are quite good, but he needs to pull them off more consistently, he's got good speed, but not good enough to create a great deal of separation off that alone, what he does have is an imposing physical frame if he's got good body position on a defender and can make them play off his back hip, they are screwed. He's also got a shot that neither Kane or Gaudreau can replicate in terms of raw power, but it needs fine-tuning in terms of getting off the "A" shot more consistently and also do a better job of finding the lanes + sufficient separation from defenders to get the shot off clean. The template for Pulju should be something closer to Blake Wheeler or Marian Hossa, not quite like either one, but it's the general direction he should be skewing towards.
Pulju is 6'4 and 211 lbs asking him to win some board battles isn't an outrageous ask and winning a board battle isn't just a defensive skill, it can directly support the offense by keeping a play alive (a big bonus as a support skill if he is ever to be a full-time linemate for McDavid). I'm not saying he should be restricted to a pure board work kind of role, like you'd expect from a Lucic, a Maroon, or a traditional 3rd line grinder, but it is an area that he can and should pitch in on. Also Pulju was always noted to be a 2-way guy when he was drafted, this isn't some wrinkle we are trying to incorporate where it doesn't belong, this is part of the core skillset he brings to the ice, you can argue about the level of focus put on his defensive game by the coaching staff, but it's a central attribute in the player he is and improving it will only afford him more brownie points with the coach and more ice-time and an expanded role are sure to follow.
Pulju should be in the mix for that 2nd line role this season and I expect him to have grasped it by the end of this season, but the 18 & 19 year old versions of Pulju simply weren't good enough or consistent enough to deserve that role or make much of that role even when it was thrust upon him.
You mean the Johnny Gaudreau who came into camp his first year and heavily outplayed every left winger they had and forced the issue?
Or Patrick Kane who did the same but at right wing.
You do realize you are talking about guys who came into the league and immediately were putting up good 1st line numbers right?
Pulju has yet to have a good camp and force the issue. Pulju has yet to come in and dominate and look elite like they did.
I guarantee if you put young Kane or Gaudreau on a third line for a bit they wouldn't be there long because they would show they were too good for it.
You are talking about guys who their worst single season point totals are almost better than Puljujarvis entire north american output. You put young those guys in the AHL no way they were only putting up 28 points in 39 games.
No one is saying he needs to elevate his line big. We are saying if he can't look good to great playing on a third line, why is he ready to move up. We aren't saying he needs tons of production down there but you can tell from watching a player if they are dominating weaker possession. He can't control others play but he can control his.
PulYou
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- Feb 16, 2018
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It think Pulju's play was effected by the knee surgery he had in the summer of 2016, when he came to NHL. But to me the most damaging to his game was his lack of confidence. This is something that to me falls on McLellan. I wrote at the time to Oiler's facebook page, that McLellan's coaching was from textbook how to rip someone's confidence.
This is Pulju at 16. I don't think there were many coaches at the time, who would not know how to deploy him if he was to be in their team.
The comments are in English.
This is Pulju at 16. I don't think there were many coaches at the time, who would not know how to deploy him if he was to be in their team.
The comments are in English.
It's always a pleasure to disagree with style. I'm sorry it's gonna be a long message, hopefully and probably the last long one from me. I hope the writers that strongly disagree with me would read this through to see if there's at least something they could agree with.
1. In his first season Puljujarvi was considered solid defensively, which his stats backed. It didn't take a big mistake (many called it the first one) to get him benched, while some players made worse mistakes pretty constantly. A lot of fans were pissed.
2. At first Jesse was placed in his own spot on the PP. He got a few games, where he hit the posts/crossbar several times. For quite a while many fans were pissed about the way he was removed from the PP and how bad the PP was with Letestu etc. Later on the PP started to work, though.
3. In his first season Puljujarvi climbed his way up to the 1st line. Before that McDavid had nine games without scoring and he got a hat trick in the first game they played together. They had four succesful games together and fans were excited about the pair. Puljujarvi scored at a ppg rate (plus one point left out). It only took a couple of shifts at the beginning of the next game to send Jesse down to the 3rd/4th line and then benched. I wonder how the season could've been without this strange and sudden demotion.
4. After the previous incident Jesse was put with the least offensive players at that time (Pouliot, Caggiula etc.), thrown between different lines and given low minutes. A lot of the times he didn't play at all. Until the beginning of that fans were pretty bewildered by that. Only then Jesse's production stopped and things got more difficult until he was finally sent down.
5. In the AHL he was told to concentrate on his defensive game. One could argue this didn't make much sense at that time.
6. I understand it was disappointing that Yamamoto took the one place in the preseason. However, according to the reports here many players were worse than Jesse but somehow the best 12 forwards weren't selected, instead there was one place between Yama and Pulju. In fact Puljujarvi had two pretty strong games, getting better towards the start of the season. On the other hand Slepy got a place straight up without the preseason games.
7. When Puljujarvi was called up he started his season with McDavid very well, but was sent down quickly. Then he did great with Nuge and now Puljujarvi was sent down to the 3rd. McLellan said Jesse was playing so well he wanted to send him down to help other players. One can imagine how that probably hurt his production, though for a while he did alright with Strome.
8. For quite a while Puljujarvi was among the most efficient scorers in the league and the best scorer of the team. However, he didn't see any PP time during that time. Again, fans were pissed, especially when Letestu just didn't work. They also tried many other players but not Jesse, even though he had e.g. scored two PP goals in the one preseason game where he had some PP time.
9. Later on during the season, when Puljujarvi had obviously lost some of his confidence, he was finally given some PP time, but in the 2nd PP at a role he's never played or never really liked. Again, this is a good way to get a player confused about his role and strengths.
10. For quite a while in the 2nd season Puljujarvi seemed to have a shorter leash than the others, that's how comments here were anyway. He was certainly taught to concentrate on the defensive side of the game. At the same time some players could get away with anything and still have a top6 place.
11. During the rest of the season he was mainly given lower minutes in the lower lines. A big part of that was with Lucic, which had killed the production of some other players. At some point Jesse's game worsened so I'm not saying this was all bad, but it's a very different approach compared to e.g. CBJ with Dubois. At the same time Lucic, Camalleri, Rattie, Aberg and others got plenty of top6 and PP time.
I'm not saying all of these should've been different. I'm just saying there were many questionable moves without which it could be very different now. If one wanted to list the things that could help with destroying a young player's development Todd and the other coaches chose quite a few of them. This doesn't equal with Jesse being a ready player in every sense, but the development of the young players is a crucial element in the whole picture. Not every Euro player is 100% ready at the age of 18 or 19.
E: I added numbers to maybe make this mile-long message a bit more readable.
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I can understand the consistency issue when it comes to the second half of his season. But I still haven't heard a single good reason to justify why he was dropped from the 1st line and then the 2nd line last season, while he was the best scorer of the team and played some great hockey at that time. Or why he was suddenly dropped from the 1st line and then benched while he'd been a hot player in the four game stretch he had with McDavid last season. At least one shouldn't wonder if a young players production and confidence drops after something like that.
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Young players get benched or pushed down the lineup a lot faster than older players and vets cause their leash is shorter cause they want them to learn.
Did 3rd/4th line duty destroy Marner and Nylanders confidence when they were pushed down? Did they stay there long? No they worked hard and pushed their way back up.
Ill say this again as I have said it 100s of times. Vets will always get the benefit of the doubt over rookies and younger players because they have their NHL careers and experience to draw upon. Rookies drowning is worse than a vet drowning cause they are less likely to bounce back.
Almost every single team in the league does this to their young players. The good ones force the issue and rise. The shitty ones (Yakupov) bounce back.
Which one is Pulju going to be?
I see your point but that's not always the case. If one wants to develop a promising youngster's offensive game to the best possible it's usually not the best way to give him the shortest leash of the team. And to drop him down from the line as soon as he clicks with someone. And to not use or use him as they do on the PP.
I can understand Puljujarvi's treatment if they're trying to develop him into a 2-way player at the cost of offensive production and to keep his value low until the extension. I still don't like it, though. But the fans usually look at the total numbers and don't often realize the things behind them and how much they can be affected by playing with the player's confidence and his normal playing style.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hyman
A lot of effort but this is backseat QBing. Teams have TC's, exhibition seasons, practice, drills. So that the coaches have 100X more access to view the players and see what they're doing than joe fan. From all reports Laine was looking incredible in Jets camp from the word go. players establish, before a game is even played, or at least elite players do. Its 2018 and Pulju has not established, that's on one guy.
Actually it was the opposite. He had a very tough time during the preseason and performance-wise (forgetting his past) he could've ended up to the AHL in the Oilers. However, he started the actual season great goal-wise.
After that there was a very difficult period, but the coaches were patient with him. At that time Laine was far from a ready player or the player he's at the moment, but Maurice had a very different way of developing him compared to Todd and Puljujarvi. Not always perfect, but very different anyway. Of course Laine's shot played a big part and thus he had earned some extra patience, too, which can't be forgotten.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hyman
Its nice when I can agree with every post being made. Bankshot post was very good and your reply was. So that the reader is left with a little of both. Agreed Gagner was given too much responsibily but also that he and Eberle etc were handed the keys to the kingdom. Its weird but gagner as a young player was being tasked with looking after Cogs, Nillson, Omark, Paajarvi. I could never really understand that while we had centers including Horc who could have shared some of that responsibility.
Being that its an example people cited here Gagner had every potential of a Patrick Kane. A guy developed much differently and didn't have to be doing the defensive aspects as much with world class D behind him and Toews. Which Gagner NEVER had here. In early years had that not been the case a Kane would have been exposed defensively a lot more too but he had a lot of shelter and more latitude to develop his offensive game.
But aside from that something other was at work with Gagner. Heres a kid with a well respected NHL hockey dad, grew up with hockey, got the best advice, coaching, and the value of having a dad player coach (like Messier had) and the path to get to the show is so much easier than it is for a kid out of the blue without those connections. So Gagner had advantages to get here but once you're in the show you distinguish on your own through continued perseverance to get better. Something has always been missing in Gagner in that. The drive just isn't the same as in players that have brilliant careers. With Gagner it was always as if he was too easily sated. The kid really could have been an allstar and ultimately what prevented that is also that just not being what he was prepared to sacrifice everything to aspire to.
Lastly, with Gagner and Eberle they had some horrendous punishing hockey moments in the NHL where you automatically realize what the full price looks like and wherein you get seriously hurt because you are a small go to player in a league where you can get destroyed in an instant. Kass doing mouth and face surgery on Gagner I think changed him. It altered him. He didn't have the type of determination to get over paying that price like his dad did. Nor could he defend himself like dad. Finally, Gagner didn't have anybody effective riding shotgun that would exact anything in revenge. Could you imagine a Gagner with a Maroon on one side for years? That would have worked. Instead the guys that had Sams back looked like Omark and Paajarvi. Conversely when he had size like Penner here or Hanzal in Phoenix I thought it helped Sam. The biggest irony for Gagner is he needed the backing of the type of player that impacted his career, a Kassian. The Oilers of the time didn't have that. They had the star players on this team getting run over for years. It impacted them all for awhile.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hyman
Can't agree with this at all. Reports out of camp were positive and Laine hit the ground running, absolutely, and this reflected in scoring a goal and an assist in his first ever NHL game and putting up 11 goals and 15pts in his first 14 GP.
Heres an interesting thing in the comparison. By November of his rookie season Laine put up as many goals already as Pulju has to this point in his career.
Also 6 of Laines first 11 goals that he scored in his first NHL month were EV goals. That again in only 14GP. So quite clearly whether Laine was on the PP or not he was going to be scoring goals and came out like a bull ready to do so.
Aerchon
Registered User
- Jul 20, 2011
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Most of what you posted i observed as well.
If I knew how to link a post I did yesterday I would direct you to it. There are reasons for the way JP is being used. Cap management and developing him into a better two way forward.
The unfortunate truth is JP isn't needed to be a one dimensional super offensive weapon on the Oilers. They wouldn't be able to afford him if they developed him along side of McDavid.
Strange, as all I've read and found is that Laine had a difficult time in the preseason. He scored 0+0 in the four preseason games and made at least one brutal mistake that cost a goal. In fact Puljujarvi was more or less better in the preseason (stress on the word preseason). Laine's last preseason was very different, and goal-wise also the start of the actual season, but the first preseason was not good.
To back my claim here's an article after three of the four games:
Jets rookie Laine still adjusting to NHL life
From the article:
When it comes to Patrik Laine, now is not the time to start sounding the alarm bells.
Next month isn’t the time either, but let’s cross that bridge when we get there.
As for the other areas of his game, Laine looks like he’s spending a lot of time thinking about where he’s supposed to be, rather than letting the game come to him.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hyman
This is over stated. Defensively there isn't as much difference between a Gagner and a Kane than people would think. Gagner didn't have elite D back sheltering him or a linemate like Toews. He NEVER had that here. He NEVER had sheltering. Really of any kind. 40 games into his career he was being a go to offensive weapon and playing with a rookie, Cogliano, and a career floater in Nilsson. This essentially was his tutelage. Heres the NHL kid, heres the keys, go out and have fun getting drilled into the middle of next year. I can't count the number of times in Gagners first few seasons that he was literally sent airborn. Kind of amazing he wasn't critically injured before he was.
And both started the year with their teams. Jesse did for lack of a better word, f*** all. And Laine hit the ground running and dominated.
Drivesaitl
Finding Hyman
Man, I was watching those preseason games. Laine was electric and noticeable every time he was on the ice in preseason. The collective reaction here and in Calgary was "Oh shit, the Jets got a ringer"
Why selectively quote it when that was not the tone of the article and omit the actual comments on his play?
This taken from your actual citation. Did you read the article?;"As for the games with the Jets, Laine has generated several quality scoring chances among his five shots on goal.
His booming one-timer has made a few appearances, including a blistering drive off the iron against the Calgary Flames on Sunday.
Laine also showcased his vision and passing ability on Thursday against the Edmonton Oilers, making a few crisp, cross-ice passes during the power play.
The tools are there, it’s simply a matter of getting a puck to go in.
Once that happens, the floodgates might open."
Conceptually this is some of the difficulty I have with the Pulju can do no wrong posters. You specifically cite an article, then selectively quote it to back your pov while pretending that nobody is going to spot the very part that immediately contradicts your pov. This being more of a challenge because Finnish language articles are often being cited and commented on. Sorry, but one can only think that those might be selectively quoted in the thread as well, because we wouldn't know. At least in English we can spot the selective bias.
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I'd love it if one could just keep to the topic and maybe admit that I had a point. We were talking about the preseason so the rest of the season had nothing to do with it.
As for Jesse's first season, things were going pretty well until he was suddenly dropped from the higher lines and benched. So if you want to find someone that **** the first season you need to take a look at TM too.
I haven't got more time for this, but you're probably the only one I hear this from. Out of curiousity I checked the Jets forum quickly and what I read pretty much confirms what I said. Not everyone thought he struggled as much as I said, but I didn't see anything even close what you just wrote. In fact quite a few thought he had difficulties. Especially "being electric" was the area he seemed to have some problems with.
Now I'm done with this as it's off-topic anyway. And yes preseason games are just preseason games. And yes Laine is doing very well now which as a Finn I'm very happy about.
I’ll always remember during the WJHC when he was 17 and they had a story on him, they described him and “never going to go like a rabbit, but he could be a fast turtle someday”.
I don’t think Gagner had the willingness to improve his game from what it was as a 18 year old. He never improved a single aspect of his game from his rookie season and really regressed after getting his big contract here.
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